The big concerned about having action and target combat.

After playing a lot of mmo I have a big concerned about having two types of combat style in the same game. They have to make action combat skills do a lot more damage since its a much bigger skill level.

But problem with that is everyone will go for action combat at least in pve to do more damage. If its one thing that most of the mmo community will always go for its damage numbers.

If they make tab target combat the "best" option for damage and movement then no one will go for action combat. It will be much easier to hit a moving target with tab targeting so it will be a nightmare to balance!

The easiest way to fix this issue is to make it so you can turn on and off action combat and then make it so if you have action combat on you can only play with others that use action combat and vice versa.

The other way is to make it server based. Make servers for tab targeting and another server for action combat. Then the people can choose the play stile they like and it will always be "balanced".

But I would like to see a pool for what the players would like to play more, action or tab targeting combat. I think its unnecessary having two combat styles.

Comments

  • Just wait for it to be tested more later on, IS will probably adjust accordingly :3
  • I hope so. I just want to get some ideas out there that they might consider to get the best gameplay experience possible.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited September 2018
    Splitting players apart isn't such a great idea for MMOs. It kind of kills the idea of being an MMO if the world mainly a no man's land because every group wanted there own ideal server. Besides that intrepid has said they won't make separate content servers.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited September 2018
    Splitting players apart isn't such a great idea for MMOs. It kind of kills the idea of being an MMO if the world mainly a no man's land because every group wanted there own ideal server. 


    ^

    Same with @AutumnLeaf - I so badly want to say how much i do NOT like this 1st iteration of Combat ... but its mostly due to the camera angle - they latest showcasing 
    ( at September PAX 2018 )  kinda showed different camera angles. In the end I'll have to wait-&-see after I login & get a good feel of it.

     But I'll make a Thread about it Before Logging in & Afterwards

  • Splitting players apart isn't such a great idea for MMOs. It kind of kills the idea of being an MMO if the world mainly a no man's land because every group wanted there own ideal server. Besides that intrepid has said they won't make separate content servers.
    Well I do agree somewhat on that but its better then having a really unbalanced game. the last way out is to focus on one of the combat styles and dump the other.

    The answer they gave to how they where going to balance the two styles was testing. That's fine when it comes to numbers but when it comes to different mechanics it's a lot harder!

    On most things they have had a straight answer but on this they werent sure, and I can't blame them because this is going to be one of the biggest task they have.

    If they wont split it I wish them good luck on this, I hope they can pull out one of the most difficult balancing that I've heard of.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited September 2018
    Well its our job to break alpha 1 and tell the devs what works well and what needs fixing.
  • nagash said:
    Well its our job to break alpha 1 and tell the devs what works well and what needs thinking.
    Oh yes we shall break it... :naughty:
  • Why this whole idea scares me the most about AOC:

    Action combat is novel but it removes a lot of what RPG's are about. What good does an agility stat provide me if it is overridden by my real life reaction time? AOC will be cutting out a LOT of player base either way but I think more so if the game favors action combat.

    Action combat comes with a bunch of inherent issues:
    1) Player skill and twitchiness defines the character more than the character.
    2) Latency becomes a crucial factor which is counter-intuitive to a game that wants hundreds of players in a single arena. When latency starts hitting, it becomes exceptionally more frustrating to play.
    3) Computer equipment becomes more valuable than character equipment.
    4) Reach weapons are more valuable than other weapons because they negate latency issues by making the character essentially a little AOE bubble.
    5) Large scale encounters make no sense (raid bosses and such) because I have to be up the mob's butt to actually hit it.
    6) NPC difficulty gets exceptionally harder to increase because the gameplay is more based around the player's skill than gameplay mechanics.
    7) A lot of room for cheating

    Every game I have played with a target of having lots of players involved in combat while keeping action combat has been lackluster at best (GW2) and horrific at worst (Conan Exiles).

    Whole thing makes me nervous as a long-tailed cat in a room full of rocking chairs.
  • CasrDagor said:
    Why this whole idea scares me the most about AOC:

    Action combat is novel but it removes a lot of what RPG's are about. What good does an agility stat provide me if it is overridden by my real life reaction time? AOC will be cutting out a LOT of player base either way but I think more so if the game favors action combat.
    That’s not how action RPGs work.  It’s not an FPS where as long as the crosshairs match up when you pull the trigger, you hit.  Whether you hit or not will depend on your character’s agility, your enemy’s defense score, etc.  And generally with an action RPG you get more “wiggle room” than an FPS when it comes to aiming and such, because it’s not all about “twitch” gameplay.

    I haven’t played AoC so I can’t confirm how it will work but I’ve played many action RPGs (TERA Online, Elder Scrolls Online, Secret World Legends, etc.) and this is generally how it works:

    1) You maneuver to get your enemy at least in front of you.  Usually it doesn’t have to be a perfect aim.  Generally your reticule or whatever you have to aim with will indicate if there’s an enemy targeted or the enemy will be highlighted, or their stats will pop up.  Something will show you they’re targeted.

    2) You have to be in range (whether that means being in melee or not).  You can tell if you’re the proper distance because the icon representing the ability you want to use will “light up” or whatever indicating that it can be used.  Tab-target MMOs usually work the same way.

    3) You click the mouse button or press the key that corresponds with the attack.

    4) At this point all the RPG elements kick in and a combination of stats (yours and the target’s) and randomness determines whether you hit or not, what damage you do, and what other effects happen.

    The level of “twitchiness” will vary from game to game but I’ve never played an action RPG that approaches what an FPS requires.  There are plenty of FPS games with RPG elements (Destiny, Warframe, The Division) but those are different and not a good indicator of what to expect in a game like AoC.
  • I am just afraid that ranged classes using tab targeting with have very easy time dealing damage to an enemy player. 
    Missile lunch, target met.

    I would rather see tab targeting only for PvE because it will be more relaxing killing mob after mob after mob. and action combat should affect PvP and PvE. 
    PvP for obvious reasons. Modern mmorpg.
    PvE. Modern mmorpg. Bosses and large mobs should have dynamic attack patterns.
  • That's my point.

    If they make it action combat for ranged classes then it becomes an FPS and we deal with latency, jumping rabbit toons, hacking and the whole 9. If they don't, it is 'too easy' compared to melee and all melee classes will whine.

    I'm not opposed to action combat in general. If it is done properly, action combat can be fun. However, all cases of action combat being fun has been singleplayer games in which latency is not an issue. Once Latency becomes an issue, it is no longer fun. Servers combat this by putting a max ping threshold on their servers... but this could be bad for an MMORPG because players from all over the world can make up the server population for one instance of a server.
  • I don't remember where I heard it, but an option could be to have separate tab-target and action combat skills.

    You will be able to stick to either tab-target or action combat, or play a combination of both.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited September 2018
    @CasrDagor 
    This isnt the final product
    it will Hybrid Action-Combat & Tab-targeting - what you see now is just the Devs exploring the Action-Combat. Very similar to their Tab-target build

    Long-range have always had it easy in Tab-target MMOs - the Tab-targeting system does everything for them - all they to do is Kite-&-Spank for both NPC Opponents and PvP. I'd much prefer Action-Combat aiming for Long-range to prevent combat from getting dull. Intrepid stated multiple times that they already Security Systems in place built into the Game - which would negate aimbots if this style is kept. I 

    Most of the concerns you have .... all-the more reasons why i beloeve Action-Combat ahould be tamed - one of which is maintaing latency issues

    Action-Combat is constantly misrepresented as having AoE Circles that makes it dull tbh - its one of the reasons why i didn't like the Meteor Spell - its been seen too many times in other MMOs. The feeling is mutal for me - they need to be more creative with Action Combat - otherwise i'lll have to keep a watchfull eye on the Venn Diagrams in Large Scale PvP :/

    i dont agree on your 6th Bullletin-point either. NPCs can be designed to keep-up with the player. Each individual NPC opponent can be designed for Action-Combat confrontations - they can be fast, they can fight smarter, they can have tactics ( such as healing themselves ) ... you just don't see it in NONE of the Action-Combat MMOs because they didn't care for it.

    such as BDO stupid NPCs A.I. 

    Tab-Target is more 2D - you have less options & creativity for this one - mirroring other tactics and habits concstantly seen in every other Tab-targetting MMO

    Action-Combat is more 3D - you have more room for creativity & options when creating a combat system this way 

    So as long Action-Combat is tamed, it will be fun.

    However, the Action-Combat I saw in Alpha 1 Phase 1 Previews ( not logged in yet )

    ... I'm indecisive of making a final judgement on it just yet ... Mostly because the Camera Angle is messing with my brain ... but even this part is kinda lengthliy explain ... Soo post a thread about how i feel about Alpha 1 Phase 1 combat in a few minutes

    in short, i do not approve of WarFrame-like Combat, but if the Camera Angle can be optimized well-enough ... then It'll be better. I think the pacing is giving the illusion that Action-Combat is tamed for Alpha 1 Phase 1 - even though the default pacing-of-combat plays a big role in taming Action-combat - including other things

    ( the longer version of this part will be in another thread ) 


  • Torkel56 said:
    After playing a lot of mmo I have a big concerned about having two types of combat style in the same game. They have to make action combat skills do a lot more damage since its a much bigger skill level.

    But problem with that is everyone will go for action combat at least in pve to do more damage. If its one thing that most of the mmo community will always go for its damage numbers.

    If they make tab target combat the "best" option for damage and movement then no one will go for action combat. It will be much easier to hit a moving target with tab targeting so it will be a nightmare to balance!

    The easiest way to fix this issue is to make it so you can turn on and off action combat and then make it so if you have action combat on you can only play with others that use action combat and vice versa.

    The other way is to make it server based. Make servers for tab targeting and another server for action combat. Then the people can choose the play stile they like and it will always be "balanced".

    But I would like to see a pool for what the players would like to play more, action or tab targeting combat. I think its unnecessary having two combat styles.
    Honestly they just need to go full action combat with the ability to focus/select a target.  Sure tab target worked well in the past but It's quickly being phased out as more and more MMOs discover ways to implement Action combat.  if you're not going action combat you're living in the past.  What you need to address is how to pick targets like you did in a tab target system that's literally the only reason to have a tab target system is to lock into 1 target to ensure all/the majority of your damage goes there.  You can do this with a Dark Soul's or ESO style "Lock on" system. 

    Basically what we need is Black Desert's combat system with ESO's "lock on" ability so we can focus specific targets for certain skills.  Both ESO and Black desert have skills you fire off with hotkeys as well as doing them via key combos so it's not like you completely lose that with an action combat system.  In fact AOC could cater to players used to hotkeys by simply having 3-4 hotkey bars like Archeage did but also have Black desert style combo system using the movement and attack keys.  

    That I feel is the best combat system and the direction which AOC needs to go if they want to be relevant in 2020.  


  • Ehh, I know Intrepid is targeting a lot of older gamers who definitely do not want action combat because they know they can't keep up with the skill curve like younger players (I know that's a generalization, exceptions apply). They prefer the combat to focus more on analytics and group coordination.

    Personally I also like action combat, but to go complete action combat divides alot of the community which Ashes is targeting.
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