Has Steven/Intrepid consulted with Raph Koster? He lives in San Diego!

ArchivedUser

I just learned that Raph Koster is still around and he lives in San Diego, where I am pretty sure Steven and Intrepid are based.

For those who don't know, Raph Koster was the Lead Designer for Ultima Online and Creative Consultant for Star Wars Galaxies. This guy has a shit tonne of knowledge and experience, particularly  when it comes to designing complex open-world MMORPGS with PVP elements.

There were considerable lessons learned from the days of Ultima Online, and I have seen the same mistakes play out time and time again with other MMOs who have tried to do the open-world sandbox PVP thing. I think open-world PVP can be done right, but very few games have done so, in my opinion.

For those who don't know much about Ultima Online, put simply, it was the first extremely successful graphical MMORPG that hit the market back in the 90's. It thrust MMO's into the limelight, but was quickly superseded in popularity by Everquest. Ultima Online and Everquest represented to competing MMO pathways. The latter represented what would soon become the classic themepark MMO (i.e. WoW) and the former epitomised the open-world sandbox ethos (i.e. put the tools in the hands of the players, and let them create their own games).

What I find particularly interesting is that still to this day, no MMO has matched the depth and complexity of Ultima Online, particularly when it came to its sandbox elements. You could interact with everything, if you wanted to make gigantic pyramids out of old boots, you could! The breadth of different styles of game play it allowed for was huge. That's not saying it didn't have issues of its own Nevertheless, I am sure that some of you will not agree with my assessment; if so, I'd be interested to know what games you think might have surpassed UO in sandbox freedom and meta-gaming.

In any case, I think it would be great if Steven/Intrepid (if they haven't already done so) had some consultation with Raph Koster. He lives in their area, so I think it is a no brainer I think he could bring an extremely experienced eye to what you guys are doing.

For those interested, here is a really interesting and informative interview with Raph Koster -

https://youtu.be/3b9jepEJxD0

ArchivedUser

You never know, maybe?

The current Devs have insane industry experience having worked on those games listed. I'm not sure there has been a mmo built yet using this much talent and experience. The more I think about it, the more it impresses me. 

ArchivedUser

Maybe they will. Maybe they won't. Could be they just want to do their own thing. I'm down either way. So far the team has done nothing but shown impressive work. And I'm still learning about it lol.

That is a very interesting interview. I'm tucking this away for safe keeping. Thank you for sharing.

ArchivedUser

gawd, I hope not...

ArchivedUser

I remember way back in the day chatting with Raph online on a forum, this was after UO but before SWG.  He was a pretty normal guy and seemed to really love making and playing games.  I always respected him for it.  If Raph was ever involved with AoC, even informally, it would be a good thing.

ArchivedUser

Raph's ideas on game design are a utopian fantasy. They sound great on paper but do not work in the real world, even when that real world is a MMORPG. 

ArchivedUser

SaintJ said:

I’ve never even heard of Ultima online, can’t be that great.... 🤔

The arrogance in that statement is astonishing. Are you suggesting that anything you haven't heard of, can't be that great?

Haven't heard of Fyodor Dostoevsky? Sure, he mustn't be that great. Haven't heard of the Dune series? Sure, it mustn't be that great. Haven't heard of Grim Fandango, can't be that great! Haven't heard of "insert X", sure X can't be that great. You getting the picture here?

I'm positive that once you re-read your statement that you will in-fact recognise it for the poorly thought out statement it is.

I'd encourage you to do a little bit more reading about Ultima Online. You will actually find that many of the game play elements that AoC are proposing were in fact pioneered by Ultima Online, over 20 years ago. You might also be surprised to learn that it still has a very active community and it still can be played through official publishers (Mythic Entertainment, and just recently Broadsword) and unofficial publishers (UOForever, to name one). In other words, people are still playing it 20 years later, it has never once been not available through an official publisher.

Does that sound like a game that "can't be that great" ?

ArchivedUser

SaintJ said:

I’ve never even heard of Ultima online, can’t be that great.... 🤔

I'll give you a pass if you're a youngster that grew up with EQ and WOW   Otherwise I have to give you a big ol... /facepalm

ArchivedUser

LithiusV said:

SaintJ said:

I’ve never even heard of Ultima online, can’t be that great.... 🤔

Haven't heard of Fyodor Dostoevsky? Sure, he mustn't be that great. Haven't heard of the Dune series? Sure, it mustn't be that great. Haven't heard of Grim Fandango, can't be that great! Haven't heard of "insert X", sure X can't be that great. You getting the picture here?

This paragraph makes me yearn to turn on the SEGA console.. Dune... lol and the remaster of Fandango is pretty awesome as well. 

ArchivedUser

SaintJ said:

I’ve never even heard of Ultima online, can’t be that great.... 🤔

Best troll I've seen in a while. 

ArchivedUser

Nefelia said:

SaintJ said:

I’ve never even heard of Ultima online, can’t be that great.... 🤔

Best troll I've seen in a while. 

You think he was trolling, and not being sincere in his words?

Not being the trolling type of person myself, i generally take people for their word. And of course, sarcasm does not translate well on the internet. It also isn't a quality to be admired in the real world, in my opinion.

Nevertheless, there is no evidence that he was trolling, or not. We must leave it up to him to clarify his intention. If he was in fact trolling, then I can only apologise for taking another person for their word and for not being "in" on the joke.

ArchivedUser

You guys need to chill a bit there xD I'd say he wasn't dead serious about the 'can't be that great' part. I didn't know about Ultima until some video about it popped up on my YT recently, some people dont really concern themselves with old games and classic that much xD

ArchivedUser

Fascinating. We have a double down on your statement You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but I feel compelled to shed a little bit more light on the topic.

Of course you are not the only one to have not heard of Ultima Online, it would be unrealistic to expect otherwise. There is no doubt that plenty of people have not heard of Ultima Online. However, plenty of people have not heard of Dostoevsky, Dune, Grim Fandango, Camus and Kierkegaard. The fact that plenty of people have not heard of these people, books and games does not detract from their greatness.

It's a frustrating worldview in which you seem to presenting. Ignorance is a pardonable transgression, willful ignorance however is an act of self-sabotage. Do we applaud the man who takes a knife to his eyes?

Another interesting fact, Ultima Online's success earned it several Guinness World Records in 2008, and in 2012 Time Magazine designated it as one of the 100 greatest video games of all time.

Does that still sound like a game that "can't be that great" ?

ArchivedUser

SaintJ said:

I'm not stating it was not good for what it was at the time!!!
I'm sure it was groundbreaking at some point, but if the systems are so amazing why don't we hear more people talking about it.

A book, music, movies, are timeless a mmorpg is not in my arrogant opinion..
However i do think WOW will still be talked about years from now if mmorpgs will presist through generations.

Feel free to change my mind.. :P

I see you have now appended your original statement "I’ve never even heard of Ultima online, can’t be that great" with "I'm not stating it was not good for what it was at the time". This is now broadening your scope on the matter. Of which I applaud

No, I think I am satisfied with where the discussion has concluded. There will be no further attempts at changing your mind.

Thank you for the civil discussion.

ArchivedUser

Look I think you are taking this to far LithiusV. Ultima online may have been an excellent game for its time, and I respect it for its role as one of the pioneers for the MMO genre, but that gives you no right to be entitled. Joan is like a lot of people who did not join MMOs till later on due to age or the stigmatism behind games at the time.

 I've been a tabletop gamer since 1998 and in that time I've seen so many changes some good some bad, but the best one by far is the new wave of people who play tabletop games. The same could be said about MMOs. As we all know World of Warcraft is the most famous MMO not because of its good or has the best gameplay but because it made MMOs more accessible to people. 

What you are doing now is the same thing people used to say to us when we started out. you are belittling them due to there experience or in this case lack of.  I would hope a gamer as experienced as you would understand better than most.

ArchivedUser

You all are making be feel old...
<Grandpa Voice> Back in my day we had corpse runs where we had to run naked thru dangerous zones to get our equipment back...  Dying meant experience loss and possible loss of a level... No hand holding, Feathers, Icons or even Maps for that matter.. No wiki.. You needed help you had to ask in a chat channel... Dial up modems.. Days to download.. Installation thru physical disks... </Grandpa Voice>
Note my first MMO was Everquest summer '99...

ArchivedUser

nagash said:

Look I think you are taking this to far LithiusV. Ultima online may have been an excellent game for its time, and I respect it for its role as one of the pioneers for the MMO genre, but that gives you no right to be entitled. Joan is like a lot of people who did not join MMOs till later on due to age or the stigmatism behind games at the time.

 I've been a tabletop gamer since 1998 and in that time I've seen so many changes some good some bad, but the best one by far is the new wave of people who play tabletop games. The same could be said about MMOs. As we all know World of Warcraft is the most famous MMO not because of its good or has the best gameplay but because it made MMOs more accessible to people. 

What you are doing now is the same thing people used to say to us when we started out. you are belittling them due to there experience or in this case lack of.  I would hope a gamer as experienced as you would understand better than most.

Curious that you would state that I have taken things too far considering that both me and SaintJ amicably concluded our conversation in less than a handful of posts? There was no multi-page ranting going on here. There were no attacks on character and the conversation was held with a reasonable degree of decorum.

Yes there was hefty debate, but the debate was centered on a premise to which I took exception (e.g. I’ve never even heard of X, therefore X can’t be that great). I did not attack SaintJ personally. I never assumed the age or experience of SaintJ and did not belittle her personally. You suggested that I did both, I reject that assertion and appeal to both you and others to re-read my words without bias. I simply argued that her statement was arrogant and presented my logic for why I thought so. I dealt with her statement, and not with her personally.

Yes, I vigorously debated her opinion, but if one cannot do that on a forum then what is the point of a forum?

I am not too sure what was entitled about me or my approach? I feel entitled to my opinion and the freedom to debate my position, but apart from that, I am at a loss as to where else you feel that I am acting entitled?

ArchivedUser

SaintJ said:

I'm not trolling.... 

I stand by my statement, I've never played WOW but the cult surrounding that game made it seem as if it had alot to offer, till this day people still talk about WOW, and how games will be WOW killers. I've never played any of the Lineage, nor have i played EvE online, but till this day i hear people speak of these oldtimers.

Now i have never heard anyone speak of Ultima online, I've never seen anything revolving around Ultima online, this is the first time i ever heard someone bring up Ultima online. I'm sure Ultima online was great for what it was at the time, and might even have interesting systems that Ashes could profit from. 

And if you think i'm the only one who's never heard of Ultima online you are mistaken.... 

If that makes me ignorant so be it... 

  

P.S i'm no he i'm a she.

Sorry for assuming the gender, please no court T_T xD

ArchivedUser

I think it's not so much about her not having heard of Ultima Online as it is about the statement:

SaintJ said:

I’ve never even heard of Ultima online, can’t be that great.... 🤔

I mean, it genuinely makes me cringe. I am also unfamiliar with Ultima Online - maybe I've heard the name a few times, but nothing more than that. The above quote, however, is something special. I feel like in a book titled "How NOT to Think", this sort of philosophy would rightfully earn an entire chapter.

Don't take it as people harassing or bullying some hapless person, think of it as people correcting a severe case of "I know everything" syndrome. Parents do it all the time to their kids. It would be irresponsible not to do the same for the youth of our forums.

ArchivedUser

Ultima Online was probably the first really successful MMO.  Not the first in any way, but the first to have the “Massively” part really apply.  It was kind of the WoW of its day and was the biggest game until Everquest unseated it later.

Note that it wasn’t an MMO like you know them today.  It wasn’t a first-person 3D game, it was a 2D isometric game.  Here’s a screenshot to give you an idea.

ArchivedUser

LithiusV said:

I just learned that Raph Koster is still around and he lives in San Diego, where I am pretty sure Steven and Intrepid are based.

For those who don't know, Raph Koster was the Lead Designer for Ultima Online and Creative Consultant for Star Wars Galaxies. This guy has a shit tonne of knowledge and experience, particularly  when it comes to designing complex open-world MMORPGS with PVP elements.

There were considerable lessons learned from the days of Ultima Online, and I have seen the same mistakes play out time and time again with other MMOs who have tried to do the open-world sandbox PVP thing. I think open-world PVP can be done right, but very few games have done so, in my opinion.

For those who don't know much about Ultima Online, put simply, it was the first extremely successful graphical MMORPG that hit the market back in the 90's. It thrust MMO's into the limelight, but was quickly superseded in popularity by Everquest. Ultima Online and Everquest represented to competing MMO pathways. The latter represented what would soon become the classic themepark MMO (i.e. WoW) and the former epitomised the open-world sandbox ethos (i.e. put the tools in the hands of the players, and let them create their own games).

What I find particularly interesting is that still to this day, no MMO has matched the depth and complexity of Ultima Online, particularly when it came to its sandbox elements. You could interact with everything, if you wanted to make gigantic pyramids out of old boots, you could! The breadth of different styles of game play it allowed for was huge. That's not saying it didn't have issues of its own Nevertheless, I am sure that some of you will not agree with my assessment; if so, I'd be interested to know what games you think might have surpassed UO in sandbox freedom and meta-gaming.

In any case, I think it would be great if Steven/Intrepid (if they haven't already done so) had some consultation with Raph Koster. He lives in their area, so I think it is a no brainer I think he could bring an extremely experienced eye to what you guys are doing.

For those interested, here is a really interesting and informative interview with Raph Koster -

https://youtu.be/3b9jepEJxD0

Have you ever done ayahuasca? 

ArchivedUser

@Rohkai

That is an off-topic subject of discussion and I will not discuss it here. I'm guessing you asked that question because of my wacky avatar and sig banner I simply like colourful art and animations.

Fun fact - The artist (George Redhawk) who animated the sig banner I have below is legally blind!

ArchivedUser

SaintJ said:

LOL.... It's one comment yet it's a full representation of my character, Yet everyone here is perfect and never said something stupid, and is having a field day with it. Too make themselves feel superior. 

 

That would be a fair argument... if that's what you had initially responded with. Instead you doubled down and supported it again. But you're right, we've all messed up like that at some point. And we've all been called on it, just the same as you. It's just how it goes. And life moves on.