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Phase I of Alpha Two testing will occur on weekends. Each weekend is scheduled to start on Fridays at 10 AM PT and end on Sundays at 10 PM PT. Find out more here.
Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest Alpha Two news and update notes.
Our quickest Alpha Two updates are in Discord. Testers with Alpha Two access can chat in Alpha Two channels by connecting your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
The Triviality of "Character Customization" in MMOS today
Greetings AoC fans,
I am of the opinion that the choices you make in building your character should be permanent. That there should be no "re-speccing". An unpopular opinion on all fronts, but hear me out.
When players can change their talents, spec, etc. on the fly, it allows them to min-max every conceivable scenario. Dungeon A has lots of trash mobs- take the AoE talent. Dungeon B has a long boss fight- switch to the single target talent. Talents 1 and 2 get nerfed by 5%- everyone hops onto Talent 3.
It gets to the point that your "build" becomes a matter of convenience and efficiency, rather than your "character identity". The thing is, choices don't mean anything unless they're set in stone.
The same problem applies to your sub-class. So your group needs a tank? Switch your sub-class to Tank. Short on healers? Have someone switch to Cleric. If you want to be a Rogue-Ranger, but Rogue-Mage is better for leveling... well, might as well play that and just re-spec once you hit max level.
How boring! Your sub-class loses its role-playing value when it can be switched in and out of. Being a Rogue-Ranger doesn't make you special when any other Rogue can re-spec Ranger whenever they feel like it. At the end of the day, "64" different classes is actually just 8.
I am aware of the eminent counterargument to permanent character builds. "But, what if you pick a Talent that doesn't end up being viable? But, but, what if your build isn't viable next patch, and your character is completely useless?"
Make your decisions carefully. It isn't that hard. If balancing isn't a train wreck, every spec and build will always have a niche.
What do you all think?
I am of the opinion that the choices you make in building your character should be permanent. That there should be no "re-speccing". An unpopular opinion on all fronts, but hear me out.
When players can change their talents, spec, etc. on the fly, it allows them to min-max every conceivable scenario. Dungeon A has lots of trash mobs- take the AoE talent. Dungeon B has a long boss fight- switch to the single target talent. Talents 1 and 2 get nerfed by 5%- everyone hops onto Talent 3.
It gets to the point that your "build" becomes a matter of convenience and efficiency, rather than your "character identity". The thing is, choices don't mean anything unless they're set in stone.
The same problem applies to your sub-class. So your group needs a tank? Switch your sub-class to Tank. Short on healers? Have someone switch to Cleric. If you want to be a Rogue-Ranger, but Rogue-Mage is better for leveling... well, might as well play that and just re-spec once you hit max level.
How boring! Your sub-class loses its role-playing value when it can be switched in and out of. Being a Rogue-Ranger doesn't make you special when any other Rogue can re-spec Ranger whenever they feel like it. At the end of the day, "64" different classes is actually just 8.
I am aware of the eminent counterargument to permanent character builds. "But, what if you pick a Talent that doesn't end up being viable? But, but, what if your build isn't viable next patch, and your character is completely useless?"
Make your decisions carefully. It isn't that hard. If balancing isn't a train wreck, every spec and build will always have a niche.
What do you all think?
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Comments
As far as specing goes situational adjustments could or should probably be allowed in towns. Seeing as there is no/limited quick travel it would make sense to pick your most beneficial spec for the current activity and be locked into until you return to a city/freehold.
"When players choose their primary class, it’s not just dictating how the next several hundred hours of gameplay will go. The secondary class choice, which comes after some time getting used to the world of Verra, will be more fluid. If you choose the Fighter and the Rogue to make a Shadowblade, but eventually want to try your hand at Summoning to make a Bladecaller, you’ll be able to do so. It’s only the primary class that cannot be changed. And hey, that’s what alts are for!"
straight off of https://www.ashesofcreation.com/class-list/
While it doesn't clarify the means of changing our secondary it does confirm it.
In my fav mmorpg experience a class could not change it's stats.
A gladiator would usually have
5k HP
1200 ATK
750 atk speed. (An example of some stats)
If you wanted to change the stats you had to spend a considerable amount of gold or devote 2-3 days farming materials.
After putting in tge effort to change my stats I ended up with
7k HP
1000 ATK
550 atk speed
and that's how I kept it for 2-3 years.
There should not be many options to change stats. A class should gave a distinct identity.
I believe that gear sets should be the only source of stat changes.
You want more HP? Use a HP sword.
You want more dps? Use a critical % sword.
You want more speed? Use a leather armor.
You want more stun resistance? Use a heavy armor.
2/3: I think we all understand how the class system works.. and it doesn't render the arguments void. Yes, the mage - cleric won't heal nearly as well as the cleric - mage, but that doesn't mean he couldn't fill in with the right group. The ability to change rolls may still be there as we don't really know how significant the augments will be.
4: Naw, it would stop most people. Most people arn't going to re-level a char to play the same class and a diff subclass.
From what I can tell you will take a quest to unlock your subclass. Choosing which one, unlocking it and having it go active. I would like to then go to another Quest guy who would give a quest that would unlock a different sub. I could choose to change right then and there or leave it. It's unlocked. Available to any time I want. Now here's the clincher. I want to change subs. It can easily be done. Just talk to the guy and forget everything I learned on my first sub. There, starting all over on the sub levels. .... I don't like it. Going back and then having to start my original sub at level 1.
UNLESS
When I unlocked the new subclass I had already farmed a special book. Taking that book they record everything you know into it and give it back. It can only be recorded into once. Then I run and switch, blah blah, I go back to my original subclass. I want to go back, "Well you will be starting over." Nope, I have my book! Allright then, hand me the book. Shazam!! Subclass returned with all the stuff I had unlocked, Book is no longer usable.
So you can switch freely but if you don't want to lose everything you learned, you need a book to save that stuff.
So it would be easy, but added difficulty for those who don't want to start from scratch if they go back to a previous subclass they liked better.
2/3. ehhh what? Since when is an archetype defined by AoE.. you kinda just pulled this one out of nowhere. The rogue/assassin archetype really only does single target damage so I guess he's useless... In all seriousness, we are talking about switching roles to fill in for small scale content. In which case, I think if a mage or ranger could subclass cleric on the fly, then they could potentially suffice as single target heals depending on the rest of the party.
4. Maybe I'm confused on what the intent was behind your point. "You arent stopping anything, just changing the way its done." I inferred this to mean that locking the subclass or making it difficult to change won't stop anyone from still achieving that other class, but.. obviously it would stop most people? I must be missing something here.
Is that how much more value you place making things easier for YOU than having a game with distinct character/class?
After all the mmorpg junk we have in which every class can perform any task?
But not having a system in place that doesn’t allow you to more freely play all 64 classes isn’t a good thing. Especially if you have to spin up entire new toons to try a class that seems interesting.
I agree that that not being able to switch on the fly is okay, but not having the option to change your subclass would be harsh.
Now your just kinda arguing against yourself. Yes all classes should be specialized, and have one thing that no other class can do as well. The fact that you have this specialization is what defines your character's identity and is the soul reason you should not be able to change subclasses on the fly. But you seem to not understand the idea of a temporary fill in for small scale content which was the example the OP was using. Will a augmented healer be just as good as a primary cleric? No, obviously. But that doesn't mean it wouldn't work in a pinch. We really have no idea how well it would work until we know more about the augmentations.
Lastly, just no dude. I never made the argument for permanent subclass, only that it shouldn't be changed on the fly. Yes, people can change to alts to play different roles which is... THE POINT OF ALTS
1. A quest ofc. Not a 5 min one either.
2. All progress on the previous sub is lost, including any materials required to gain that progress (skill mats).
3. A decent amount of gold should be spent as well.
4. The new subclass starts fresh and must be worked back up, if that's a thing.
The focus has always been about meaningful player choices. Allowing willy nilly sub switching severely undermines this goal and downplays community involvement. I get that some people want to switch daily for every task or build they want, and they want it now. In fact probably the same peeps (looking at you Nef) that also need instanced PvP. It's a constant chorus of instant gratification.
I predict something similar to what I outlined will be in play just due to that being an outline from other games that AoC seems to be drawing inspiration from. But who knows, IC could be cheapening it up a bit. Striping away the impact of our choices for the sake of convenience will move AoC closer to WoW.
It may seem counterintuitive, but that personal impact of choice is really one of the most immersive elements that draws you into your character and makes it more real.
-CS
Basically you would have one active subclass and one saved subclass. This would allow people to have flexibility in play style but also give more weight to the decision of changing sub class. Of course this would mean you'd have to change your subclass at a fixed location like a town or freehold but I'm of the opinion that changing your subclass shouldnt be done on the fly.
Let's say you have Fighter as your main and Tank as your sub. You manage to reach the "max level" for Tank and get all the abilities you can gain with it as a sub. You then switch from Tank as your sub to Ranger. This means you have no experience with Ranger, but the experience and powers you have from Tank will still be saved until the next time you switch back. However, to prevent players from leveling up every single sub then basically having instant access to any ability anytime they want, the saved sub-class experience for classes that aren't in use will decrease over time. So if you use Ranger for an extended period of time and then switch back to Tank, you might find that your character have forgotten all his skills.
This would mean the players who can manage to keep practice with multiple sub-classes will be rewarded (obviously one would have to make the experience decrease fast enough that it's not possible to level up a bunch of different sub-classes before you forget what you learned with them).
EDIT: It is more or less the same idea as above.
Exemple, at the level X, I unlock my second specialisation A, I choose one and I level up with it.
After a while, I want to change, but I have no experience in the specialisation B. So, I should start at the level X again. If I want to go back to the previous one, I would have get back to the level I was before, or a quantity of experience would be lost proportionally at the one acquired in the new specialisation.
Out of the nodes, specialisations would be locked and skills as well.
They could also consider (like in GW2), the possibility to experiment everything in some kind of sPVP.