Kickerstarter and Cash Shop cosmetic item integration and mount concerns

ArchivedUser

I remember Steven mentioned at one point he wasn't a fan of cash shop items that felt like they completely didn't fit into the world. You know, Chibi stuff, mascot or meta mounts that are purely there to be silly and fun. #KoreanMMOs

Some of the designs I've seen of the skins, mounts and such from kick starter exclusives, or the ongoing monthly backer content for ashes, While not completely outlandish, some things I've narrowed my eyes on wondering 'Why... Are players getting this?' from a perspective of lore and immersion.

I'm perfectly fine with exclusives, although I'd really love a way for existing backers to have opportunity to see missed months... Since I didn't even realize it was rotating until recently and hadn't checked the shop since the summer rewards. Personal gripe though!

Either way, my point here is Integration. What I mean by this is these items should not always be player exclusive. Have NPCs or other members of the world, equal to the renown you want it to have be on a NPC of equivalent renown for the armor or cosmetic concept in question. Obviously this won't apply to everything.

Listening to one of @Simurgh 's podcasts they discussed Animal Husbandry. At my kickstarter level there's a exclusive mount involved. I love the mount concept. My question: Will I be able to breed this mount? I imagine not, but I feel that should be a player decision, perhaps add some high failure rate or something into breeding extremely rare mounts such as those.

I also would like to see incredibly important NPCs have access to this exclusive mount if the lore fits.

I guess it boils down. Give thought to immersion and integration of exclusive outside of game content earned by methods not within the game.

For example, as cool as the pre-order exclusives or cross game mount rewards in World of Warcraft were- I simply never used them. There was no logical reason my character would have access to say.. Tyreal's charger. It looks cool, but it's immersion breaking and... That alone can make me quit a game. It's why I stay away from Eastern/Korean/Asian MMO's. So many times you see such outlandish characters not fitting the world, contrasting say... A dark fantasy background. It's an eye sore to me, but ultimately subjective.

What are your thoughts on exclusive cosmetics? Do you prefer the content to be more exclusive to the player to make your character stand out as more unique? Or are you on the side that you like seeing NPCs of similar renown using the same awesome cosmetics that make you feel unique? Maybe a different take entirely? Do tell!

ArchivedUser

Where to unpack all this. The exclusive nature of rewards has been beat to death in other threads. It isn't going to change. You missed stuff, it ain't comin back. Deal.

The cosmetic rewards are all skins. You have to acquire the base class of mount/pet/mule in game before you can apply the skin. Your exact question was asked about husbandry in an earlier livestream and the answer was no. Applying the skin changes how that one particular item appears. Would kind of defeat the purpose if every person was able to recreate the same or close to effect in game. Will there be a huge variation through husbandry in game? Yes.

And yet another "Runes mah Murshun!" false start. As you said, it is all subjective. Just because you may like Hello Kitty or Dark Souls is your favorite, doesn't mean they are going to cater to what your personal preference is. The vision is Steven's, he decides the course of the game, and if you don't like his list of class names, or choice of art style that he directs his people to make, life is going to be hard in Ashes.

ArchivedUser

So early, things will open up and I am very hopeful he’ll make it fair for everyone. Simply loves MMO’s I know fan boy, just hope we all get to help shape the game

ArchivedUser

LedgeTheOrc said:

I've narrowed my eyes on wondering 'Why... Are players getting this?' from a perspective of lore and immersion.

I will respond to this like all the other 50 times before: Who are you to decide what is immersive and lore at this point? Take that however you want.

To the rest, I am actually intrigued by the thought. Seeing mounts like the stuffertoon around a magical academy would make sense and put him where he belongs as well. Seeing(not just) cashshop obtainable things in the actual world sounds nice, I just fear that there are an amount of people that would look at it along the lines of:

"uggh stop throwing those things into my face, I don't want to buy them!!!"

In my mind it plays out a little difficult because of that, but personally I think it would be nice to use those assets in the gameworld to solidify their existence past the, "I paid money so it exists for me", point..

To things like tyraels charger in wow. Sometimes you just have to ignore their cashshop name and take it for what it is, a mount/armor that happens to look like one you know. That said having a miniatur tyrael pet, just because. I have no answer to that .-.

ArchivedUser

If they're just cosmetic I don't care what people get it's not going to be anything absurd will someone gets armor and all of a sudden he's dressed as a Gundam. You paid $350 or were around for the kick starter you deserve an exclusive skin.... one that'll honestly probably be forgotten about in a year or something better will be in game. So no big deal. 

ArchivedUser

The unique part of the cosmetics being one time exclusive is that they will help people create their identify.

For example, my avatar is my Archeage Character wearing the infamous Inquisitor Robes.  An armor plated priest costume in my opinion was the best costume in the game.  I think in all my time in AA I only found 1 other character who used it on any regular basis, and that was only after a server merge.

Now, as far as immersion breaking, Steven is aware of this and he has responded to the most hated mount.



After the public outcry Steven specifically addressed it:



After that, the cosmetics seem to stay pretty non-immersion breaking.

ArchivedUser

UnknownSystemError said:

Where to unpack all this. The exclusive nature of rewards has been beat to death in other threads. It isn't going to change. You missed stuff, it ain't comin back. Deal.

The cosmetic rewards are all skins. You have to acquire the base class of mount/pet/mule in game before you can apply the skin. Your exact question was asked about husbandry in an earlier livestream and the answer was no. Applying the skin changes how that one particular item appears. Would kind of defeat the purpose if every person was able to recreate the same or close to effect in game. Will there be a huge variation through husbandry in game? Yes.

And yet another "Runes mah Murshun!" false start. As you said, it is all subjective. Just because you may like Hello Kitty or Dark Souls is your favorite, doesn't mean they are going to cater to what your personal preference is. The vision is Steven's, he decides the course of the game, and if you don't like his list of class names, or choice of art style that he directs his people to make, life is going to be hard in Ashes.

It'll be alright. Life is good. Breath in, breath out. We're all friends here.

You both have valid points of view. The vision is Seven's and if someone doesn't like it, "life is going to be hard in Ashes". But then again... if enough people don't like it, life is going to be hard on Ashes.

The only thing I've seen that has raised any concern is the teddy-bear mount, but Steven has addressed it, and we haven't seen anything else like it. I'm hopeful the game's immersion stays at the threshold I enjoy, but I'm also aware that we all have different tastes and we need to be cognizant of that. How far is too far is something that'll just have to play out in natural order between IS and the market. All we can do is share our own opinions.

ArchivedUser

The bear mount looks bad, Asian MMO bad.  But so far it’s the only item of its type I have yet seen.  And Steven implies that it won’t look as bad when you see it in the game.  We’ll see.  I just don’t want TERA Online levels of stupidity. Which we fortunately don’t have.

As far as who am I to do decide what’s immersive...  Well I’m the only person who counts.  I’m a customer.  The customers, the players giving IS money, we are the ones who decide that.  Not the designers.  They can try to make the experience for us but it’s up to us whether or not it succeeded.  And if we decide it didn’t, and leave because it really cheapens the game and takes the fun away, it becomes yet another entry in one of those “MMOs that failed” articles. 

ArchivedUser

Grisu said:

LedgeTheOrc said:

I've narrowed my eyes on wondering 'Why... Are players getting this?' from a perspective of lore and immersion.

I will respond to this like all the other 50 times before: Who are you to decide what is immersive and lore at this point? Take that however you want.

Ravnodaus said:

UnknownSystemError said:

Where to unpack all this. The exclusive nature of rewards has been beat to death in other threads. It isn't going to change. You missed stuff, it ain't comin back. Deal.

The cosmetic rewards are all skins. You have to acquire the base class of mount/pet/mule in game before you can apply the skin. Your exact question was asked about husbandry in an earlier livestream and the answer was no. Applying the skin changes how that one particular item appears. Would kind of defeat the purpose if every person was able to recreate the same or close to effect in game. Will there be a huge variation through husbandry in game? Yes.

And yet another "Runes mah Murshun!" false start. As you said, it is all subjective. Just because you may like Hello Kitty or Dark Souls is your favorite, doesn't mean they are going to cater to what your personal preference is. The vision is Steven's, he decides the course of the game, and if you don't like his list of class names, or choice of art style that he directs his people to make, life is going to be hard in Ashes.

It'll be alright. Life is good. Breath in, breath out. We're all friends here.

You both have valid points of view. The vision is Seven's and if someone doesn't like it, "life is going to be hard in Ashes". But then again... if enough people don't like it, life is going to be hard on Ashes.

The only thing I've seen that has raised any concern is the teddy-bear mount, but Steven has addressed it, and we haven't seen anything else like it. I'm hopeful the game's immersion stays at the threshold I enjoy, but I'm also aware that we all have different tastes and we need to be cognizant of that. How far is too far is something that'll just have to play out in natural order between IS and the market. All we can do is share our own opinions.

Thank you @Ravnodaus , Thankfully I'm fully bought in - But there's no reason to be so aggro @UnknownSystemError , that's how you deter people from the game you're supposedly fighting on behalf of. Fun fact, if the consumers aren't immersed, many will drop it. Especially in a Sandbox MMO.

Either way, Immersion is Subjective. Correct. However Immersion is required from both sides. Let's take two of the Immersion Definitions:

(Source)

Immersion: absorbing involvement

This form of immersion is my choice related to the nature of games. Fully. This choice is made from becoming engrossed into something. Sure, you can be immersed in something that is not your choice, but in the sense of video games we have the free Will to drop it like a bad habit. Like you should, with bad habits.

Immersion: instruction based on extensive exposure to surroundings or conditions that are native or pertinent to the object of study

Alright, so this is the company side. Their job is to help draw us into the world to enjoy our free time. Storytelling at it's core is about becoming entranced and pulled into the world, and it feels like Steven has a story to tell he wants us to share. So I get your point about Mr Stuffers. I can see where it can fit, and truthfully it's not my main target, but is obviously one to worry about and the devs have been great so far about listening. Though, as many other kickstarted MMOs who have sold thousands and thousands of dollars worth of cash shop style housing, cosmetics, travel methods waaaaaaay before launch it's a notorious cash grab from the examples already presented.

We're all only on good faith that ashes will be different. Stories have two sides. The Storyteller, and the Listener. If both sides aren't happy, you have an unread story lost to the ages like many unwritten oral traditions of the past. But I'm rambling now.

Different regions need different advertising, they clearly already release that with the plan for a global launch. They have the experience. Most of them have worked on MMOs where they've had to make the very thing we're talking about, but the issue is... Ashes cannot afford to have it's current level of immersion broken before the game even launches, much less before the full story and world vision is released.

I actually really enjoyed TERA combat wise, but aesthetically I did not enjoy child-like titmail wondering around, or any of the other awful levels of cosmetics they had, but that's a culture and region issue. Eastern MMOs thrive off of the crazy cosmetics.

Atama said:

The bear mount looks bad, Asian MMO bad.  But so far it’s the only item of its type I have yet seen.  And Steven implies that it won’t look as bad when you see it in the game.  We’ll see.  I just don’t want TERA Online levels of stupidity. Which we fortunately don’t have.

I distinctly recall Steven saying in an early live stream how much he was not a fan of games like TERA (Without stating the name) ruined his immersion with Cash Shop items. So I completely agree with him, and can only hope he keeps that in mind beyond the dollar signs.

Jahlon said:

The unique part of the cosmetics being one time exclusive is that they will help people create their identify.

For example, my avatar is my Archeage Character wearing the infamous Inquisitor Robes.  An armor plated priest costume in my opinion was the best costume in the game.  I think in all my time in AA I only found 1 other character who used it on any regular basis, and that was only after a server merge.

Now, as far as immersion breaking, Steven is aware of this and he has responded to the most hated mount.



After the public outcry Steven specifically addressed it:



After that, the cosmetics seem to stay pretty non-immersion breaking.

I understand your point. I definitely build a character theme myself and jump on any cosmetic which expresses that concept. I understand exclusivity, but what purpose does it serve other than for show? Isn't the biggest Epeen zerg culture what Ashes is trying to shy away from?

An example of my point is the many, many exclusive items from RuneScape Classic, which were items (Crowns)  only available at a specific point. WoW actually has this to some degree with selling items that have been removed from the game otherwise. These items skyrocket in price, we're talking dedicated player amounts of gold to obtain. What reason should the items remain entirely exclusive? Let the players decide value, ESPECIALLY in a Sandbox game. Again, I don't state this in a sense of me feeling it should be mandatory. The whole point of this forum is discussion, not right or wrong.

So far I myself haven't really cared much about the cosmetics. It would be cool to obtain Vek or Ren'kai housing styles, but I'm going to be pretty upset if those styles are exclusive to kickstarter in some way, even being a backer willing to payout. Though, I imagine ever race will get a standard version of housing for their culture, and these are just 'Premium' versions.

MAN, that was a lot of thoughts to try and collect. Sorry for the late reply.

ArchivedUser

LedgeTheOrc that was a lot. Appreciate your thought, totally agree this is for discussion and if enough people get behind something it may make it to the game. As for the vision of AoC https://youtu.be/tyeJ55o3El0

ArchivedUser

@LedgeTheOrc I agree one player having a unique mount raises eyebrows and questions as to the why/the lore.

On the other hand, I assume multiple players will buy each mount cosmetic, meaning it makes those mounts a bit more common in the world, while not being too common, so there's less need for a lore justification.

I like the idea of seeing a cool NPC and their pet as a kind of easter egg hint to some rare mount that's possible to obtain..so yes to NPCs having the mounts as long as it's rare.