PvP progression compared to solo, group and raiding

ArchivedUser

I'm curious what the progression will be for pvp. In most MMO, it's always solo - group - raiding in terms of progression. You want the best gear then you got to raid. You can get decent gear from grouping but it won't compare to that if someone raid gear. But what will they have for pvp. I've read they want to try to give everyone something from solo to raiding. Is there going to be pvp progression, where if you just wanted to pvp would you earn some type of points or currency to be able to trade in for gear that is equivalent to progression of grouping and raiding? Or will you be left out and the only way to stay with everyone is to pve? I think having some type of points system or item system you get from a PK that works as a pvp only currency would be amazing. Sure you'll probably have to supplement gear with pve and that's fine, but to not have any pvp progression with the normal pve progression would really suck. Thoughts? Suggestions? Answers to my question that I didn't take the time to research as it was already answered? 

ArchivedUser

As far as I am aware, there is no strict pvp or pve gear. Essentially it's all pvx.

ArchivedUser

There is no financial incentive to arenas, no separate pvp currency. Arenas will give cosmetic rewards and titles. Caravans will have economic incentive through certificates redeemable for resources/currency. @Minizem said there is no separate pvp/pve gear. All stats relate to your effectiveness in pvx. The will be no incentive to PK outside of the corruption system. Those that go "red" will have no special titles, gear, or currency awarded. "All stick and no carrot." is the plan for the PK corruption system. Regular pvp within flagging will have incentive in that everyone drops gathered resources on death in varying %s depending on flagging state at time of death. And as the OP pointed out,  most of this has already been answered.

ArchivedUser

I think (and I could be absolutely wrong) pvp progression will not be measured in gear but in bragging rights with owning a castle and defending it often. In guild vs guild, which in turn could lead to node vs node warfare. Stuff like that.

I feel pvp and pve will indeed be blended in this game from the perspective of clear separation in past games. PvX..

ArchivedUser

Typically, raiders need raid gear in order to survive massive damage dealt by the raid boss.
In order to bypass that, raids have to be more minion/horde oriented than boss oriented so that individual mobs are dealing damage more on par with that of an individual raider.

But, gear progression will just be PvX.

ArchivedUser

UnknownSystemError Thanks for being the encyclopedia of information

I think I was misunderstood. Although it was kinda answered. I don't mean PvP specific gear. I mean PvX gear you would get via PvP. In other words, if you raid/group/craft your gear. If you just wanted to PvP would you be able to achieve some type of currency from PvP that would allow for you exchange for raid/group/crafting equivalent gear. So if you weren't raiding you could still achieve raid tier gear if you PvP enough.

What I meant by gear progession is Raid Gear > Group Gear > Solo Gear. Well if you didn't do any of that and just PvP it'll be hard to keep up with someone in raid gear. EverQuest II had a system like this. Each time you killed someone you got a token. You could turn in enough tokens to buy gear equivalent to raid gear. It was just a lot longer....A LOT longer to get enough tokens compared to that of raiding, but you had this in place on the PvP servers. It was a nice alternative to be able to progress in the game without the typical grinding of doing dungeons and raids. You could even do this solo if you wanted, but again...it took a lot longer than if you were just in a raiding gear haha.

ArchivedUser

They have said that there won't be pvp specific currency a la "tokens" and if there were to be added would be for cosmetic rewards only. There are currently 4 tiers of gear. Those drop from various activities that included pve and crafting. There has been no confirmation on gear acquisition from pvp. Since the huge majority of gear is meant to be unbound and sellable/tradeable, those that wish to pvp only will need a revenue stream if they choose to avoid pve activities and buy their gear instead.

ArchivedUser

The game is designed to be PvX, so sometimes the PvE crowd will have to participate in PvP to get what they want and vice-versa.

I don't think there should be separate rewards for PvP outside the general looting already planned. PvP is meant to be meaningful, so hacking someone up and taking some of their gathered goods makes sense, taking their armor/weapons or having randomly dropped armor/weapons does not make sense to me (especially with the current plan for corruption).

If you PvP only you might have to rely on guild mates for gear.
Ashes is not a PvP game anymore than it is a PvE game, you will likely being doing both. If you want gear, you'll have to get it the same way everyone else does

ArchivedUser

If you win at PvP you get resources.

Resources have economic value.

ArchivedUser

Azathoth said:

The game is designed to be PvX, so sometimes the PvE crowd will have to participate in PvP to get what they want and vice-versa.

I don't think there should be separate rewards for PvP outside the general looting already planned. PvP is meant to be meaningful, so hacking someone up and taking some of their gathered goods makes sense, taking their armor/weapons or having randomly dropped armor/weapons does not make sense to me (especially with the current plan for corruption).

If you PvP only you might have to rely on guild mates for gear.
Ashes is not a PvP game anymore than it is a PvE game, you will likely being doing both. If you want gear, you'll have to get it the same way everyone else does

When EQ2 did this they weren't a pvp game either. In fact, they were a PvE game and added pvp at a later time. Who knows, maybe they add something to caravan raids and sieges. You have a normal raid for PvE to get high end gear.  I've seen other games add in pvp equivalent raid items. I wouldn't say they were exactly equal in stats, but definitely worlds better than typical group and created gear and as close as you get to raid gear. It would make sense, especially with people who worked on EQ2 being part of intrepid now. 

ArchivedUser

I don't think there was a misunderstanding.
Ashes is a PvX game. You aren't going to get gear drops from players like you might from mobs.
Gear from PvP will most likely come from whatever your loot rewards are for successful caravan raids. Same for successfully completing objectives during sieges.
I doubt there will loot rewards from arenas - but maybe.
(Really that's likely to be looting resources that can be crafted into gear.)

Mobs drop resources.
Players (and their mounts) can drop resources, too.

If you don't raid, you don't need raid gear, but... again...
We will have to see what raiding looks like in Ashes before we can determine whether Ashes raids will require raid gear that is significantly different from group or solo gear.

ArchivedUser

Crafters will be your best friends.   

ArchivedUser

Dygz said: 

If you don't raid, you don't need raid gear, but... again...
We will have to see what raiding looks like in Ashes before we can determine whether Ashes raids will require raid gear that is significantly different from group or solo gear.

But those who raid will be better equipped than those who don't giving them a distinct advantage of pvp. And those who just pvp won't be better than those who raid meaning to progress you'll have to raid. All I'm saying is there's been games where you didn't need to raid to stay in line with players who did. Now we don't know the exact tier of gear, but just about every mmo follows the fact that if you raid, you have better gear. AoC can be different where solo, crafting and group gear could be equivalent to raid gear, and maybe raiding provides some different incentive but I doubt it. I don't believe we fully know the extent of what type of gear is available and how.

ArchivedUser

We don't know what raiding means in Ashes.
When dragons can attack nodes, you better believe the citizens of the nodes will be participating in dragon raids- even if it's the dragons traveling to attack the citizens' lair rather than the citizens traveling to attack the dragons' lair.
Same for Monster Coin Events.

There have been games where xxx...
Those games aren't Ashes of Creation.

You can doubt whatever...
My entire point is that we don't know the extent of what type of gear will be available and how.
We have to wait to see what raiding in Ashes of Creation entails.

ArchivedUser

CylverRayne said:

Crafters will be your best friends.   

Also, since anyone and everyone can craft, it’s likely most people will want to be a crafter to some extent.

I’m sure some people will be more dedicated to it than others.

ArchivedUser

I will purge the corrupted.....they will be my raid bosses.

ArchivedUser

Anyone and everyone might be able to craft, but they won't be able to master all the crafting. Crafting progression, as of now, is something you have to specialize in to be good at or you can spread yourself more thin and not be a master at all.

As for PvP's not being able to gain the same type of gear that PvE's can gain from raiding. They can! They just have to raid. Again, this is a PvX game, neither the PvP crowd or the PvE crowd should expect Ashes to bend to give them things if they are not willing to participate in the other side at least a little.

There is a good chance that all pure PvE players in Ashes will have to PvP at some point to protect something they like/love. At some point PvP players will have to quest to get things they would like/love to have.

Why give players more loot for PvP, I am not sure what it wrong with resources?

Resources can be sold/traded/crafted for better gear, in that some of the most powerful gear in the game will be both dropped and crafted as of now. So, PvP, steal resources, trade resources for coin, use coin to buy better armor from PvE craftsmen. Or, steal resources and give them to a guild/buddy craftsman and have them make you better gear.

Not sure why the gear has to be dropped just so PvP can keep PvP'ing 24/7 as opposed to doing some PvE. After all, PvX right.

ArchivedUser

R41D3NZ said:

I will purge the corrupted.....they will be my raid bosses.

Ha! Corrupted are the opposite of a raid boss, but...
I hear ya.

Seems like PvPers will be able to PvP 24/7 if they wish.
There will always be caravans working to build up defenses of castles - in addition to caravans for Nodes and Node sieges.

ArchivedUser

@McKnightrider I think there are ways you can indirectly get gear from PvP actions only and that's mostly gold.

You see, when you kill another player in the open world he will drop raw materials, you could then proceed to give these materials to your crafter friends to make you good gear with it. or if you don't have crafter friends, you can sell them in a nodes market for some gold you can later exchange for top gear since soulbinding won't be a thing so you can buy the best gear with gold.

Even though it's not explicitly confirmed I believe the best, crafted gear will require raw materials dropped from raid and world bosses, as these are raw materials, you could literally raid a raid group and hope those rare raw materials drop from them, and then you proceed to do the same I described above with them just for a higher reward.

On top of that you could dedicate all your time and energy to robbing or defending caravans, these are mostly PvP moving events if you decide to defend them you get your PVP fun and get paid by the caravaneer, if you decide to rob them and manage to destroy them you get the raw materials from the caravan. and proceed to do what I described above.

Same goes with sieges, these huge PvP events will allow you to most likely loot the raw materials from the burned homes during the siege and if the siege is successful you can then proceed to continue looting raw materials from freeholds outside the node.

Many of these require you to be in a group like successfully killing a raid group or attacking a caravan. Some are even trickier like sieging a node. But these are all PvP events that will allow you to get tangible rewards that even though most of the time won't be gear, you can sell or exchange for gear or favors.

There is also a way you can directly get gear form PvP actions and that's from killing corrupted players. There will be a job in military nodes called bounty hunter, you will get some skills that will allow you to locate the corrupted players much easier and when you kill them, not only do you get the bounty reward on their heads(gold), but you also get the raw materials they were carrying, in a lot higher quantities than dropped from non corrupted players, and a chance to actually loot the gear they were wearing. this gear could be better than your current gear as the corrupted players get decreased effectiveness in PVP so you could easily kill someone that's better geared than you for a chance at that sweet armor or weapon, on top of the bounty.

As CylverRayne said, crafters will be your best friends.

ArchivedUser

@Santy182

I feel like they will put a tier system on items like common, uncommon, rare, legendary, mythical etc.. and I doubt the mythical (aka raid gear) would be droppable. I think to many people would rage that they raided a boss that took 40 people only to lose it in a fight. Or if gear is boundable to someone they won't drop it. We'll have to wait and see but the resources may be droppable and you may get resources from caravans, and sieges that are equivalent to raid resources. So that might be the way to get gear through pvp, but I don't see them allowing for an item to be obtained via raid and you kill someone and get it. But a siege may not only reward you resources but maybe it'll have its own reward system for defending and c taking a castle that has equivalent to raid items. 

ArchivedUser

They have said that almost no gear will be bound, and since dropped gear is considered a punishment, you may very well see no restrictions on what drops. Don't want to lose your high level stuff? Don't gain high levels of corruption. The idea that people would be able to kit themselves out in gear that gets around their system would just make it useless in a few months is not going to happen.

ArchivedUser

I can see McKnightrider's point, assuming that I grasp it correctly. As far as I can see there never has been a great "straight PVP reward to get gear loop" in any game without some kind of "accomplishment currency" reward for PVP.

If it comes out that just doing straight PVP activities enables a player to be rewarded enough to gear himself as consistently as other methods do, raiding, grinding PVE, etc... that would be different and new and cool.

I don't think we know enuf about the various game "loot cycles" yet to know if that will be the case.

ArchivedUser

Bringslite said:

I can see McKnightrider's point, assuming that I grasp it correctly. As far as I can see there never has been a great "straight PVP reward to get gear loop" in any game without some kind of "accomplishment currency" reward for PVP.

If it comes out that just doing straight PVP activities enables a player to be rewarded enough to gear himself as consistently as other methods do, raiding, grinding PVE, etc... that would be different and new and cool.

I don't think we know enuf about the various game "loot cycles" yet to know if that will be the case.

Precisely. I'll use EQ2 as the example as they had this system. The best way to equip yourself was through raiding. That gave you the best items possible, then you had instance dungeons and group equipment followed by crafted gear which was equivalent to solo gear. But if you just wanted to pvp you could not keep up in armor progression unless you raided. So they implemented merchants that would take a pvp currency. You would randomly get 1-3 tokens to trade in for gear for killing someone, and later on could take a quest that also rewarded you a token for killing someone ofofa certain class. That gear was better than dungeon gear and right on par with raid gear. So if you just did pvp you could keep up with everyone who raided... which still ultimately was better gear and faster, each piece of gear if I recall cost 350+ tokens taking awhile to fully equip yourself but it gave that alternative... and that game has a fraction of what AoC wants to implement. They have veterans on their team from EQ2 so I'm sure they would think of this if they want it in the game, but since loot progression is still a mystery I don't know the full extent of everything. 

ArchivedUser

Again, in games where raids are fighting a single raid boss, raid gear has to be the best gear because individual raiders have to be able to survive hits by the boss.
Those hits by the boss are going to be magnitudes higher in damage than hits from another player.

So, in those types of games - if you don't raid, you don't need raid gear.
In order to get raid gear, you need to raid.
The way to change that is to change raids so that there is not so much of a focus on individual players needing to be able to survive massive damage from a single raid boss - and instead focus more on damage coming from a horde of minions.
And, if that's the case... all gear is just PvX.

Ashes isn't designed like EQ2, so there's no point continuing to use that as an example.

ArchivedUser

Dygz said:

Again, in games where raids are fighting a single raid boss, raid gear has to be the best gear because individual raiders have to be able to survive hits by the boss.
Those hits by the boss are going to be magnitudes higher in damage than hits from another player.

That's not true though. Raid gear is better than every other gear at all times. It's not just that you have raid gear for raiding. It makes you better at solo, group and pvp.

ArchivedUser

Since all gear is supposed to be PVX, "raid gear" may simply not exist. It probably should just be considered as "best" or possibly as "best for circumstances" versus condition of opponents.

That still doesn't answer whether it will be possible to play ONLY as a PVP player and afford "best" gear or for playing PVE ONLY for that matter, though that would seem like the most likely(self sufficient) of two extremes possible.

ArchivedUser

Ultimately this PvX game will reward PvX players the most.

In a sense if arenas are made equalized, you won't need gear to be competitive.
If you want to compete for other purposes than pure pvp outcome, you'll have to expand to other than pvp activities.

ArchivedUser

OP, no specific reward beyond what the defeated person drop.

Likely,  there never will be and should never be.

If there were, my clan and I would just PvP each other non stop untill we had what we want. We would call it farming. It would be a broken system.

Your pvp reward is a castle, a caravan, or a node. Not all progression is linear or specific to your character. 

Dygz, obviously if "raid gear" made you much stronger, to say, fight a raid boss, everyone who pvps would NEED that gear to compete. Do the ol' say it out loud test before you post. Btw I dont think there will be "raid gear" in AoC.

-CS

ArchivedUser

ChuckSteak said:

OP, no specific reward beyond what the defeated person drop.

Likely,  there never will be and should never be.

If there were, my clan and I would just PvP each other non stop untill we had what we want. We would call it farming. It would be a broken system.

-CS

This actually was a thing, In fact I remember someone using his guildies to do this. But the system in place tracked who you killed. And him showing up in full armor was a dead give away. Since killing a player was recorded on an internal log they saw he just killed the same 5 different people over and over again. He ended up getting suspended and they stripped him of all his pvp gear (even the stuff he already earned legitimately). After that I don't recall anyone else doing that.