Few idea for make the first MMO Play will pay (Goodby F2P)

ArchivedUser

Sorry for my bad english, if you have suggestion or something you didn't understand, just ask.

So,

I think the dev should find a balance with subscribe/cashshop and free account with a limited special currency that allow the player to develop big thing like town, house, craft station trade... for exemple the max currency avaible by month its 1500 (cumulable) + and not make a pay to win, but a play will pay...
Cause a lot of people can't play so much (2h by week) and this people will not subscribe every month.

In my exemple there an XP and leveling system for the town (like EverQuest2 for the guild) for unlock town feature, house... or launch a wave of monster on enemy town... each feature cost currency but the town or house must reach a level to unlock a new feature that must be buyed by this currency and the only way to get XP for the town or house... its to do solo repeatable quest that will give a small amount of currency (5 for exemple), daily quest that will give a higher amount (20 for exemple), weekly quest that will give 50.
And do the same thing with a higher difficulty (group quest) that give x2 or x3 currency.
After that the town must have a bank for the currency, when a player give 500 currency its done there no pay back.

-Subscriber :
do not have any restriction with bag emplacement, character slot...
got 1000 currency every month for town developement and trade
XP boost...

-Cashop :
able to buy currency (500 max) by month
able too buy bag emplacement, character slot, XP Boost...
able to buy skin.

-Freeaccount
Ulimited access to the game and must do a lot of repeatable quest to develop there own house or town

In that exemple the game itself is not free, there an initial cost 40 dollars.


An thats not ALL :
If they do something like this that can force the roleplay,(social status) for exemple do a ranking system with a title/job and a rent system that go directly to the town currency bank, default price if its an NPC town or price defined by the player/ruler of the town + a progression system :

100 currency : Beggars (if a citizen or higher social class give copper to a beggars he will get a random light buff (faster moving, + max stamina...) the beggars have no home but got access to any town feature... if he got enough gold to pay , so there will be few beggars waiting in the street for few copper.
500 currency : Citizen (can rent a little house) low rent value (50 currency for a week) good for a vault.
to 
1000 currency : Famer (can rent a farm) (100 currency for a week) can only sell Harvest to a Merchant + special farmer dayli, weekly currency quest
1500 currency : Basic Merchant (can rent a shop) (150 currency for a week) can only sell farmer product + special merchant dayli, weekly currency quest
1500 currency : Basic Trader (can unlock trade mission) can only trade farmer product (150 currency for a week/trading office rent) + special trader dayli, weekly currency quest
to 
2000 currency : Craftsman (can build a workshop) (200 currency for a week) can sell crafted product to an advanced Merchant Note : A well developed town can give acces to new workshop for craft higher level/valueable item. + special craftsman dayli, weekly currency quest
2500 currrency : Advanced Merchant (can rent an advanced shop) (250 currency for a week) + special dayli, weekly currency quest
2500 currency : Advanced Trader  (can unlock advanced trade mission) (250 currency for a week) + special dayli, weekly currency quest
to
3000 currency : Guard (got a little buff when defending town and reduced price to repair a broken gear in the town) unlock the ability to teleport to his town and got a gold salary dayli (they must stay 15 min in the town to get salary) and unlock easy heroic quest (good reward) + special dayli, weekly currency quest
5000 currency : Knight (got a good buff and no cost for repair broken gear) and got a gold salary dayli (they must stay 15 min in the town to get salary) higher salary than a Guard, and unlock medium heroic quest (good reward) + special dayli, weekly currency quest
7000 currency : Bounty Hunter (buff + Can unlock special daily quest for kill a dangerous NPC (solo, group or raid version) this monster drop gear, tradeskill valuable item and the quest reward its a good amount of money. + special dayli, weekly currency quest
...etc...etc...etc
to the KING!!
and why not a vassal town who has to pay one tribe with currency to an other stronger town... (the stronger cannot attack the vassal and must defend it too), and the vassal can breack the deal.... start conspiracy against a strong lord

Make just 1 job avaible at the same time, for exemple a player can't be knight and Farmer at the same time with timeout, for exemple if a farmer choose to be knight he must wait 1 week to start a new farm and must wait 1 week to become knight again.
Each player must progress and can"t be a knight first, so if a player want to be knight the cheaper way its beegars==>Farmer==>Craftsman==>knight that will cost 3100( +rent) currency so minimum 4 month fo a subscriber.

So like this the currency didn't get any negative impact with traditional money system (gold) for any trade player/player or player/NPC, the progression will be more easy for the subscriber without locking the content for the freeaccount player like i said not pay to win but the player can choose to pay to easy play or play will pay.
The play will pay player (free account) that will pay for everyone cause he must give the same amount of currency for progress his social status and force him to do quest that give XP to the town.
Make a trading with gold is very important, cause i think player economy its really important in a MMORPG and this currency system will not breack player economy.

Make just 1 job avaible at the same time, for exemple a player can't be knight and Farmer at the same time with timeout, for exemple if a farmer choose to be knight he must wait 1 week to start a new farm and must wait 1 week to become knight again, cause i think its stupid to see a farmer raiding a heroic boss.

After all the most simple thing to for the subscriber its to add a multiplier currency reward for the subscriber.

Conclusion : The game will grab more people = more money for the company

The people are tired of the pay to win, and a subscribe account only will result to less people.

That play will pay for everyone = a good advertising is going to make for you and the players will be more inclined has to spend some money, cause today a lot of player are tired to be milked by the MMO.

ArchivedUser

Here is the the thing. You are not getting milked. You pay your sub, you get access to the game and all of the content inside. The dodgy bullshit that other f2p games try to make money will NOT make an appearance here. I am sorry that you may be poor, but $15 a month is not considered a whole lot of money for most of the developed world. Your ideas are used in other games and they rightfully piss people off. The reason Ashes was able to have the hugely successful crowdfunding that it has to this point is because people took them at their word of no p2w. Steven has stated before that they will shut the game down and rework it before it ever goes towards f2p or p2w. There are many, many f2p games out there. They might be a better fit, because this one isn't going to go that route.

ArchivedUser

No F2P 

ArchivedUser

Not to sound pessimistic but your idea does seem to be on a very slippery slope  to ptw 

ArchivedUser

That just sounds like P2W with extra steps?

ArchivedUser

Yep not a fan of the f2p model myself.  It seemed like a good idea when I was new to mmo's but then p2w happens and the game slowly dies. All the effort put in for nothing.

I'm sick of it so ill gladly pay a subscription only game.

May Ashes of creation outlive all others...

ArchivedUser

So here you don't understand what im saying or didn't read, i got enough money to take a sub, but i m not talking for myself only, im talking for other people and for the game itself.
I m talking about a game that require to buy it like EOS, and guild/town leveling system, so a sub player will benefit from freeaccount action and freeaccount can get an unlimited acces to the game.
Like i said play will pay.
If im talking about myself, yes i wiil take a sub, i'll take advantage from freeaccount player, and free account player will take advantage from sub player any MMO should take this way cause everybody win (subscriber, freeaccount and at the end the company).

There is no MMO (F2P) with a free unlimited acces that don't exist you must buy something for a higher level progression.

All the MMO with subs die, and there is no interest to play on a empty MMO, often the MMO with sub payment switch to F2P cause the game is empty.

A MMO should be right with the customer at start, and not adopt a milked F2P when the population is low.

After if the game itself is bad, F2P or sub will change nothing, a bad game its a bad game.

This game take Archeage mechanic, only the subscriber was able to build a town or house, result the freeaccount leave the game and there just not enough subsciber to make the game feel alive, so a lot of people unsub and leave the game, Archeage close half of there server after 6 month this game is dead.

I play on many MMO with subs, that was working in the past for exemple with Everquest 1, archeron call..., at this time there was only few MMO with sub, so yes it was working but time have changed.
Today its not the same deal, there is a lot of MMO, too much MMO.

I can't tell how much MMO with sub i have tried, but there was the EQ1, EQ2, WoW era, now its completly different.

I will take 2 good exemple with WoW and EQ1 (timelocked server that need a sub to play), so you need to sub. All the older content is empty, you will not able to play with somebody until you reach the max level, thats really bad for a MMO, like many people if i take a sub and not able to play with other ppl after 3 week i will just leave the game.
Next to this there is Project 1999 (EQ1 private server) and WoW private server, this private server give an unlimited access to the game for free, WoW private server offer a cash shop (buy geared character, mount...), this private server got a higher population than the official one and i its more enjoyable to play on the private server, you will find people to group from lvl 1 to max lvl, and why cause this server offer an unlimited access to the game, so at the end i will give few bucks to a private server to support there work on the other side i never give any F2P pay wall game.

So a subscribe payment will work for less than 1 year, after this that will change to a milky F2P model to keep this game alive, paywall everywhere...

ArchivedUser

Honestly, I'm not sure if you were trying to, but you literally just created the worst business model I've ever seen, and that is saying a lot considering I've played Archeage by Trion.

All you've done in your example is create a super P2W System, which is 100% exactly what Intrepid is trying to stop in the industry.

Steven is concerned about making a good game, not worried about making the most money.

ArchivedUser

Jahlon said:

Honestly, I'm not sure if you were trying to, but you literally just created the worst business model I've ever seen, and that is saying a lot considering I've played Archeage by Trion.

All you've done in your example is create a super P2W System, which is 100% exactly what Intrepid is trying to stop in the industry.

Steven is concerned about making a good game, not worried about making the most money.

So tell me what is P2W ?

ArchivedUser

P2W its when you need to spend money to upgrade your character, in my description i talk about sub player and unlimited freeaccount that will help and benefit from sub, so if somebody want faster currency i just need to get a sub, that will change nothing for the subscriber.

ArchivedUser

Damsous said:

P2W its when you need to spend money to upgrade your character, in my description i talk about sub player and unlimited freeaccount that will help and benefit from sub, so if somebody want faster currency i just need to get a sub, that will change nothing for the subscriber.

Paying to get something faster is P2W

ArchivedUser

I will take a detailled exemple :

A subscriber got 1500 currency everymonth for develop guild/town/house.

A free account can buy 500 currency max by month.

A subscriber cannot by currency in the cash shop.

So there no pay to win here, sub got an advantage for develop a guild/town.

The guild/town got a technology tree, that need XP for unlock technology and must be buyed with currency, for exemple if a town want build a forge they will need 500 currencie + be level 10.

The free account can do repeatable quest with currencies reward to give xp to the town/guild.

So a freeaccount will be forced to do more repeatable quest to get currency.

You can get million of currency if you got a low guild/town xp you can buy nothing, so that will force the player to play together for the same goal.

The subscriber can spend more time to do other thing, freeaccount will must do more repeatable quest to earn currency and a freeaccount will generate more XP for the guild/town than a subscriber, a subscriber will be able to give more currencies for buy new technology, and freeaccount can benefit from that.

I hope you understand the currency its only to develop the town/guild its not usable for character progression.

So the forge can be buy easely if subs and freeaccount are playing together.

At the end a town can be developed faster that depend how much player are in the town and if they are active or not.

The forge can be used by sub and freeaccount no restriction or paywall

So completly no P2W, but PWP (Play will pay) cause a non active player with a lot of currency can do nothing.

So the result :

Freeaccount will give more XP to the guil/town

Subs will give more currency to the guild/town.

Subs player will need free the account player (vice versa)

So the player will be forced to play together (subs and free account) for upgrade the guild/town.

If a free account is tired to do repeatable quest and need currency he can sub for 6 month.

If a subs got IRL change and is not able to play often (like 2h buy week) he can unsub and can always help to develop the town result he will not leave the game and sub again when got more time to play.

Next to this there is no locked content for freeplayer, cause the currency can be earned by doing quest.

So a sub and freeaccount do not get advantage, complement itself and each other.

ArchivedUser

@Damarus   You totally are describing a pay to win system in which in order to advance you have to buy/pay into it in some form or another.    That is not going to happen per Steven: 

 "Ashes of Creation will not be pay to win, that is our pledge to the community. One of the core principles we set forth with Ashes of Creation is a very strong desire to maintain the game's even playing field."

Inventory slots and XP potions are considered pay to win.[6]

My definition of pay to win is really anything that affects the in-game economy, the in-game action pool, your abilities and/or skills... In my opinion the inventory slots and the XP potions would be considered pay to win.[6] – Steven Sharif

ArchivedUser

In my opinion the inventory slots and the XP potions would be considered pay to win.

 That just an excuse to force subscription

ArchivedUser

Damsous said:

In my opinion the inventory slots and the XP potions would be considered pay to win.

 That just an excuse to force subscription

That literally is P2W. You're actually done an amazing job describing P2W in fact. Your entire argument is P2W to a T. 

ArchivedUser

Damsous said:

In my opinion the inventory slots and the XP potions would be considered pay to win.

 That just an excuse to force subscription

How? Having more less of these kinds of things in game doesnt in itself force a game to be sub based or not.
The Subscription model was decided on far before any serious development of the game had begun.
It was a choice made by Steven In response to the cancerous trend of mmo's going f2p p2w just to milk what is now a heavily burned community.

ArchivedUser

Damsous said:

So tell me what is P2W ?

-Cashop :
able to buy currency (500 max) by month 
able too buy bag emplacement, character slot, XP Boost...
able to buy skin.

Able to buy.... is pay to win

ArchivedUser

Buy anything that isn't cosmetic is P2W. Buying experience potions and gold is the most obvious P2W thing I could ever think of haha. Paying for extra character slots and backpack slots also falls under buying convenience for yourself which is also just P2W. Anything that gives you a difference from someone else playing the game is P2W.

ArchivedUser

Haha mans trolling the fuck outta y'all. I like this guy. 
Don't worry my man. I fully support your business model. The idea literally comes straight from hell . I like how you're thinking outta the box. Intrepid should hire this man. He's an economic genius.   

ArchivedUser

VoidShadow said:

Haha mans trolling the fuck outta y'all. I like this guy. 
Don't worry my man. I fully support your business model. The idea literally comes straight from hell . I like how you're thinking outta the box. Intrepid should hire this man. He's an economic genius.   

"Facepalm"....

ArchivedUser

Arxeon said:

VoidShadow said:

Haha mans trolling the fuck outta y'all. I like this guy. 
Don't worry my man. I fully support your business model. The idea literally comes straight from hell . I like how you're thinking outta the box. Intrepid should hire this man. He's an economic genius.   

"Facepalm"....

For real though. Calls us close minded when he refuses to see the flaws of his own system lol. How do these people make it out of middle school.

ArchivedUser

Damsous said:

P2W its when you need to spend money to upgrade your character, in my description i talk about sub player and unlimited freeaccount that will help and benefit from sub, so if somebody want faster currency i just need to get a sub, that will change nothing for the subscriber.

Paying to get something faster is P2W

ArchivedUser

So you want a hierarchy of profession + hierarchy of quality.
All wrapped up in a public sector employment system...a la Node bank for state funding.
Using rentals (-10%) to return 'part' of the nodes funding through wages (+90%).
So what happens to the reamining 90% ?
Does it;
a. Get spent on the node where the currency originated enforcing a closed loop.
b. Get stuck in a employees pocket, ensuring ever more currency needs to be added to ensure financing is liquid and not solid.
c. Get spent on another nodes assets, draining wealth from the node unless a balance of trade is perfectly maintained.

The problem with a hierarchy is you will always have arguments about who sits at the top of that pyramid.
Not that I have a problem with the general concept of being devoted to 1 profession at a time.
Some interesting concepts wrapped up amongst less desirable aspects.
A refuse collector many would consider are not worthy of good pay.
But when you are swimming in trash, rats and disease..you probably would reconsider their value to society.
Distribution of labour implies, all types of labour are in fact of equal necessity.
IMHO.

On the free to play. Free players consume more real world resources than had they not played. Someone has to pick up the tab for the extra infrastructure and maintenance expense. Either Intrepid or the players. There is no free lunch.

ArchivedUser

VoidShadow said:

Haha mans trolling the fuck outta y'all. I like this guy. 
Don't worry my man. I fully support your business model. The idea literally comes straight from hell . I like how you're thinking outta the box. Intrepid should hire this man. He's an economic genius.   

This comment showed me the truth

ArchivedUser

Maybe my english is just too bad and you don't understand what i want to say or you just read "buy currency" and your brain turns off... (closed mind)

I try to explain how to launch the game without force a sub, cause today the MMO with sub required, fail and became a p2w after 1 year.

So i will explain why put a minimum price to 40-50$.

Cause the investment company want an interest on their investment, so a sub its the safer and simpliest thing to do without charge a high price for the game itself.

And for an other reason ill explain later.

What's make a currency system P2W (based on my description) :

-If they can be sold for gold (broke the ingame economy).

-If they can be buyed without any limitation.

-If the player can exchange gear.

-If the currency is tradeable.

So on my description currency can't be sold, limited by account by month (sub or cash shop), not tradeable and only useable for the guild/town progression.

I repeat and explain :

-Subscriber got 1500 max free currency every month + the other currency can be earned by doing quest + XP

-Subscriber cannot buy currency in the cashshop.

-Non subscriber can buy 500 max currency + the other currency earned by doing quest + XP.

(Marketing Strategy : if a sub is 15$/month, 500 currency must cost 10$)

So the subscriber is more confortable, there no P2W here, for sure a subscriber got an advantage on the non-subscriber but its not P2W at all, and with the XP system (or something similar) subscriber and non subscriber take advantage from each other (currency/XP input).

Like i said im talking for everyone, sub, freeaccount and game company cause the goal its to sale more subs without locking the content for the free account.

Sorry about said stupid, but P2W its clearly not an answer cause its not pay to win at all, cause that change nothing for a subscriber vs subscriber, and that system can create social class (Role Play Gaming).

For exemple a free account will be farmer longer than a subscriber, but a farmer is an essential profession for the town/guild developement.

For exemple a town with knight only cannot be well developped, so the free account will be a solid part for the town developement without locking knight class for a free account it will take longer. 

If you think its P2W describe in detail why, not answer a stupid answer like "buy currency its pay to win".

Why i say mind closed cause you just respond its P2W without try to understand or ask a question, the only one who understand what i want to say its @Rune_Relic and i respect what he say.

The only flaw on my description that can cause issue its if some people use bot farmer to farm currency, thats why i say the game must be buyed 40-50$ to avoid or reduce this flaw.

And with that currency system a player must accept a bot in his town to be able to use it, so it will be complicated to use a bot farmer with that system.

An other thing, there is also a lot of people that are enjoying to trade, craft and build only so open your minds a system similar will grab this people too.

ArchivedUser

I try to explain how to launch the game without force a sub, cause today the MMO with sub required, fail and became a p2w after 1 year.

WoW and FFXIV have no problem being sub games.

ArchivedUser

Ok so it seems the OP does understand what P2W is. So your statement about subscriber game will fail is a load of bull shit. You have no facts to back that statement and there are plenty against it.

The primary flaw with your system is that no offense but its fucking annoying. First off, it isn't even neccessary because a sub system will not fail after a year and become pay to win. Second, your system still incorporates the essence of pay to win.

A subscriber is getting currency for paying the 15$ monthly. And a free player has to buy his for 10$. So what the fuck is stopping a free player from remaining a free player? Your argument?>  that they need it do develop a node and because a node brings benefits, they will be forced to buy it. 
Another question, Who the fuck will buy a sub for 15 when they can get everything for the 10$? Your argument is that a sub needs a free player and vice versa because things they can use  with their currency is different. Well guess what, ain't no mofo buying a sub if they can do things for cheaper. 

Next up- you say that it isn't pay to win because it's for node development currency only. Well it is pay to win. Because the free players that pay will get access to content faster and have an economic advantage over others. And as such a subscriber is also paying to win according to this system. You also want a free player to waste his time grinding quests for this currency thing when a sub player inherently starts out with more and can use that time to do other stuff to advance in the game. Your model also kills the exploration and adventuring of an mmo and turns it into a chore to play like every mobile game becomes after a few weeks of play. In no sense does your model work at all.

Your entire system is built on flaws and on the assumption that a subscription model will fail. I'm not saying this to hate on you or because your english isn't so good. I'm just logically dismantling your entire model and proving you wrong. Please do reanalyze your model before commenting again about how great it is because it doesn't even come close.

ArchivedUser

@VoidShadow You say : "A subscriber is getting currency for paying the 15$ monthly. And a free player has to buy his for 10$. So what the fuck is stopping a free player from remaining a free player? Your argument?>"

I have repeated 3 times the same thing....

Cause a subscriber got 1500 currency monthly max.

A free account can buy 500 monthly max.

So a subscriber got 1000 extra currency by month.

(dont really care about the number its just a random amount for the exemple).

@VoidShadow You say : "Another question, Who the fuck will buy a sub for 15 when they can get everything for the 10$?"

Same response a sub will got 1000 extra currency each month so after 4 month a subscriber can have 6000 currency max, a free account only 2000 max.

The subscriber will always got more currency than a free account.

@VoidShadow You say : "Your argument is that a sub needs a free player and vice versa because things they can use  with their currency is different. Well guess what, ain't no mofo buying a sub if they can do things for cheaper."

I will take an exemple you are a subscriber, you are town/guild leader, me and my friend are free account :

-So the town/guild need XP, (like the status in EQ2) to unlock new feature, this feature have a cost "currency".

-I want to be a part of your town and rent a farm so I will give to your town 1000 currency to be a farmer and paid a rent 100 currency by week.

-If i want go faster i need to buy 500 currency and do some quest to earn enough of currency (500 by doing quest) to buy it and to paid rent, 100 by week.

-So you as town leader if you got 3 farmer (freeaccount) they will make a profit of 3000 currency + 1200 currency by month.

-You, you want to build a chemistry table for your town, your town will need 5000 currency for that and be lvl 10 to unlock this feature.

-The freeaccount by doing quest to earn currency will generate XP for your town, so the freeaccount will input more XP and less currency, the subscriber will input more currency and less XP.

-You as subscriber + an other subscriper + 3 freeaccount you will able to do that in less than 1 month without need to do a lot of quest , if you are 2 sub that will take you more than 3 month and do a lot of quest for XP your town. 

So if follow my exemple, if you have 2 farmer, 2 merchant, 1 trader, 1 craftsman, 1 advanced trader, 1 advanced craftsman (they are all free account) the free account will generate more than 10000 currency + 1000 currency by week for your town.

In exchange they have access to any town feature.

-If the free account are tired to do this quest and like the game they will sub, simple.

-If for any reason a sub unsub for 2 or 3 month he got the possibility to participate to the town developement and continue playing for his character progression.

-If a player got not so much time to spend in the game he don't need to take a sub just buy 500 currency sometimes to maintain him and paid his rent, so it can be cheaper for the player and make money for the company.

The goal its to encourage the free account to take a sub without paywall, the sub will benefit from freeaccount action, that will increase the number of sub at the end.

@VoidShadow You say : "Well it is pay to win. Because the free players that pay will get access to content faster and have an economic advantage over others."

Who the fuck will buy a sub for 15 when they can get everything for the 10$?

The world is'nt just rainbow and butterfly  if a free account didn't want to spend any bucks in the game he will do more quest, that need a good balance a freeaccount will need +/-5h of hard questing to get less than 500 currency.

And your doing a lot of inconsistency for sure a subscriber will have a easier life, cause if not like you said nobody will take a sub and the company fail.

I think there a lot off individualist mind here, not me, I m assuming the game its a MMO so a town is developped by +20 ppl.

For sure if most of people on that thread are individualist and minded like this : "i got my town and im alone in my town...."

My exemple not work at all, and i understand that everybody on this thread think its pay to win.

For sure a freeaccount alone vs a subscriber alone, the freeaccount got no chance that will take thousand hour to build a town.

@VoidShadow You say : "Your model also kills the exploration and adventuring of an mmo...."

I played on many MMO, that take less than 6 month (without rushing) to explore completly a game, so not really that will increase the lifetime of exploring.

@VoidShadow You say : "Please do reanalyze your model before commenting again about how great it is....."

Tell me where i say my model is great, i never say that... whats wrong with you ?

@VoidShadow You say : "So your statement about subscriber game will fail is a load of bull shit."

Why the majority of the game that have started with sub only are F2P now ?

RIFT, Starwars, LOTRO, Age of conan, rune of magic...etc...etc there is hundred of title like this, why cause there too much MMO now, subs not work the population is too low.

The only subs game are from 2016-2017 they will be F2P soon.

WOW its an exeption, they got all the blizzard fanboys.

I can take an exemple, and compare EOS you need to buy the game but no subs there a lot of people on the server.

Darkfall the game is really cool, in my opinion really better than EOS, don't need to buy the game but 10$ subs, the population is really low and its a shame for a PvP sandbox so its not fun to play that game.

ArchivedUser

This is just another in a long line of "I want to play for free!" posts. They come, they go. No matter the spin they may try to put on it, come live launch they either pony up the $15 bucks a month or they sit outside in the cold with their grubby noses pushed up against the glass looking in on everyone else having a good time. These are not the droids, move along.

ArchivedUser

Damsous said:

Why the majority of the game that have started with sub only are F2P now ?

RIFT, Starwars, LOTRO, Age of conan, rune of magic...etc...etc there is hundred of title like this, why cause there too much MMO now, subs not work the population is too low.

The RIFT started a sub only servers this year and the first few month was big success. I do not follow it so I do not know the current situation, but they make the expansion to these servers so I think they still have enough subscribers to maintain the project.

ArchivedUser

This went South quickly. No F2P games for me ever again. Any game that goes that way costs far more than a subscription game if you want to stay on top. The second any game goes F2P I'm out.