PVP Class Viability

ArchivedUser

Since pvp will be such an important part of the game, do you guys think they will be able to balance the pvp aspect of the game?

Developer question: What steps are being taken to ensure class balance not only in pve, but in pvp?

ArchivedUser

They have mentioned that they will not be balancing  on a 1v1 basis. They will follow a rock-paper-scissors mechanic, like maybe one class will definitely be able to defeat this class, but then will be weak to a different class. They will balancing based on a group instead.

https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Game_balance

ArchivedUser

diwata said:

They have mentioned that they will not be balancing  on a 1v1 basis. They will follow a rock-paper-scissors mechanic, like maybe one class will definitely be able to defeat this class, but then will be weak to a different class. They will balancing based on a group instead.

https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Game_balance

I generally enjoy playing healer classes. I really hope that the Cleric/Bard doesn't get shafted in pvp. Whether that means being able to heal through damage, or having game changing skills, I really hope they remain viable.

ArchivedUser

@onystyle
In case you were not aware, clerics do have mechanics to heal through damage .

ArchivedUser

With many class combinations I think it is best if they make every class useful in PvX.

That way people will not just choose, say Sorceror and Nightblade only, like they did with ESO.

I believe the classes in AoC that appear to be the strongest in 1v1, should lack group utility.

It has been said that clerics in AoC can protect the group inside a dungeon in a manner irrelevant to healing.
It has been said that rangers can disarm traps.
I would like to see Fighters, who traditionally are strong in 1v1, to miss on a unique group ability.


This way everybody in AoC will choose a class based on what they like.
They will contribute to a group.
The strong classes will have to be useful players in order to join a group that has classes with utilities.

ArchivedUser

There is a 4 way archetype system with 4 magical and 4 physical archetypes.

Often thats called DD Healer Tank CC.

The only way to effectively balance that is.

Degen+ (DD), Degen- (Tank), Regen+ (Healer), Regen- (CC)

I expect fighter/tank/mage/summoner to perform the DD & tank roles.

Cleric and Bard would be left as Healer + CC

Ranger and Rogue ?? I am more inclined to see ranger as Healer and Rogue as CC.

Rogue and Bard are supposed to be in the fight, but I cant see them as powerful fighters to take out a tank, the healer maybe.

If the tank can do no more than mitigate damage, it can do no more than mitigate the incoming. Give it conditional reflection based on skill and the tank can kill off the DD rather than just soak up the damage (DD suicide).

If the CC can do no more than mitigate healing, it can do no more than mitigate the outgoing. Give it conditional absorption based on skill and the CC can kill off the Healer rather than just soak up the healing (Healer suicide).

ArchivedUser

Im kind of concerned about the Tank.

The combat seems very reliant on movement and ranged attacks seem quite powerful if you get hit.

I assume that the tank may have the least movement skills. Because a tank is about absorbing damage an control and not about flying/doging/jumping/blinking around.

So i fear that the Tank may become a sitting duck.

But we won't know for sure until we see PvP gameplay with a Tank.

ArchivedUser

I think we need to be careful when saying things like

Augentier said:

... and ranged attacks seem quite powerful if you get hit. ...

Based on the BR? Recognize that the BR is NOT the MMO and currently in the BR, HP bars are dramatically reduced and headshots do a crazy % damage etc. Do not confuse balance and other parts of the BR as reflective of the MMO.

ArchivedUser

NeuroGuy said:

I think we need to be careful when saying things like

Augentier said:

... and ranged attacks seem quite powerful if you get hit. ...

Based on the BR? Recognize that the BR is NOT the MMO and currently in the BR, HP bars are dramatically reduced and headshots do a crazy % damage etc. Do not confuse balance and other parts of the BR as reflective of the MMO.

Yeah i know the BR is not the best source for assumptions about the balancing. Especially because we don't have classes in the BR.

I'm just saying that im concerned.
I imagined beeing a Tank without a lot of Movement in the BR. And i just wondered how high my damage mitigation needs to be to compensate for the lack of movement skills.

ArchivedUser

NeuroGuy said:

I think we need to be careful when saying things like

Augentier said:

... and ranged attacks seem quite powerful if you get hit. ...

Based on the BR? Recognize that the BR is NOT the MMO and currently in the BR, HP bars are dramatically reduced and head shots do a crazy % damage etc. Do not confuse balance and other parts of the BR as reflective of the MMO. 

I believe it was said in one of the live streams, that they did not plan to have a range on skills and weapons. This in itself could be a huge issue. Ranged classes will have advantage in both pvp and pve. Unless melee classes get some crazy gap-closers, then they will be bad.  As of right now, ranged is too strong, both in pvp and in pve. We will see how they fix that. Especially since the game, though they try to say it appeals both types, is far more heavily pvp oriented. 
We don't want a situation in where a bunch of people are transporting resources and 20 meteor's come flying in from some random hill/mountain, with virtually no counter-play available. Infinite range can be fine in a BR, but not in an MMORPG.

ArchivedUser

gb1990gaming said:

I believe the classes in AoC that appear to be the strongest in 1v1, should lack group utility.

I don't believe that's how they are going at it. The way I understand a rock-paper-scissors dynamic, there won't be a class that would be strongest in 1v1. Each class might have advantages fighting some classes but will most definitely have disadvantages to at least one different class. With this, just talking about 1v1, I would think that even the cleric would have at least one class they would have advantages against.

ArchivedUser

Assumptions about Clerics because @diwata mentioned them.
Clerics are going to be strong against Tanks an Bards:

Tank doesn't do much damage so the cleric can outheal his damage with ease. While doing this the cleric can do small amounts of damage to the tank. Slow but inevitable death for the Tank!

Clerics control life and death while bards can play guitar. Cleric wins!

ArchivedUser

Augentier said:

Clerics control life and death while bards can play guitar. Cleric wins!

We dont know how Bards are going to play, so please dont assume that bards will just play guitars ;D. They only gave us limited knowledge about their skills sadly, while Ranger, Clerics, Tanks and Mages got a good amount of their skills already. One thing they said about Bards is that we will be able to enhance our attacks to generate buffs, which could be pretty awesome. And we wont have to use music instruments!

ArchivedUser

Augentier said:

Assumptions about Clerics because @diwata mentioned them.
Clerics are going to be strong against Tanks an Bards:

Tank doesn't do much damage so the cleric can outheal his damage with ease. While doing this the cleric can do small amounts of damage to the tank. Slow but inevitable death for the Tank!

Clerics control life and death while bards can play guitar. Cleric wins!

You have no real power power over life and death

ArchivedUser

nagash said:

Augentier said:

Assumptions about Clerics because @diwata mentioned them.
Clerics are going to be strong against Tanks an Bards:

Tank doesn't do much damage so the cleric can outheal his damage with ease. While doing this the cleric can do small amounts of damage to the tank. Slow but inevitable death for the Tank!

Clerics control life and death while bards can play guitar. Cleric wins!

You have no real power power over life and death

But thats where the Necromancer gets his power in AoC doesnt he? I mean its the combination of Summoner and Cleric. Summoner doesnt have the power to summon the undead naturally he is able to summon all kinds of beasts and so on, he gains the power over the undead from the Cleric.

ArchivedUser

nagash said:

Augentier said:

Assumptions about Clerics because @diwata mentioned them.
Clerics are going to be strong against Tanks an Bards:

Tank doesn't do much damage so the cleric can outheal his damage with ease. While doing this the cleric can do small amounts of damage to the tank. Slow but inevitable death for the Tank!

Clerics control life and death while bards can play guitar. Cleric wins!

You have no real power power over life and death

I have power over time, life and death are but a trifle

ArchivedUser

I think it will depend entirely on what kind of choices are made available through augmentation. The more that augmentation can change the functionality of the base skill the harder it will be to balance because you effectively go from balancing 8 classes to 64. However, having meaningful/functional choices, as opposed to mere aesthetic/flavor ones,  would make the game so much more fun to learn, play, and explore. Personally, I hope the devs are up for that challenge.

ArchivedUser

Augentier said:

Im kind of concerned about the Tank.

The combat seems very reliant on movement and ranged attacks seem quite powerful if you get hit.

I assume that the tank may have the least movement skills. Because a tank is about absorbing damage an control and not about flying/doging/jumping/blinking around.

So i fear that the Tank may become a sitting duck.

But we won't know for sure until we see PvP gameplay with a Tank.

I'm concerned about tanks too but for a different reason. There's a big difference between tanking in PvE and PvP which is that players do not have to attack you rendering your primary strength less useful. Mobility is always important in PvP but I think a good trade-off for tanks, and also something that will be necessary for viability anyway, is having useful ways to mitigate damage to other players and/or control the flow of combat in a way that isn't annoying or unfun to play against.

ArchivedUser

I think everyone is forgetting that the Devs have stated they aren't going to just have a "tank" class... tanks will be able to specialize in what they do.  The wiki points to 3 different types of tanks, control/evasion/shield.  So imagine fighting a control based tank... he/she is going to CC the crap out of you and your friends all at once, as that is the way a control tank is going to mitigate damage in dungeons (by CCing groups of enemies so they cannot attack or damage him/her).

Also imagine if there is a capture the flag/king of the hill type PvP match... a control tank is going to be very important.  Especially if a control tank could do things like stomp the ground/bash the ground and cause enemies to fall/collapse, or daze enemies in a cone in front of the tank thereby reducing their chances to hit...  the sky is the limit for what they could give to a control tank.

I think it will be incredibly interesting!

Edit: here is a link for the tank wiki.... look at how much control a tank will have! It's going to be so awesome!

https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Tank

ArchivedUser

Sulrak said:

I think everyone is forgetting that the Devs have stated they aren't going to just have a "tank" class... tanks will be able to specialize in what they do.  The wiki points to 3 different types of tanks, control/evasion/shield.  So imagine fighting a control based tank... he/she is going to CC the crap out of you and your friends all at once, as that is the way a control tank is going to mitigate damage in dungeons (by CCing groups of enemies so they cannot attack or damage him/her).

Also imagine if there is a capture the flag/king of the hill type PvP match... a control tank is going to be very important.  Especially if a control tank could do things like stomp the ground/bash the ground and cause enemies to fall/collapse, or daze enemies in a cone in front of the tank thereby reducing their chances to hit...  the sky is the limit for what they could give to a control tank.

I think it will be incredibly interesting!

Edit: here is a link for the tank wiki.... look at how much control a tank will have! It's going to be so awesome!

https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Tank

Dodge tanks(if they manage to make them good) will be eventually op in PvE xD. 
I remember the Burning Crusade druid tanks with 110% dodge 

ArchivedUser

onystyle said:

Since pvp will be such an important part of the game, do you guys think they will be able to balance the pvp aspect of the game?

Developer question: What steps are being taken to ensure class balance not only in pve, but in pvp?

The 1v1 as stated earlier by someone else wont be balanced, and this games PvP is more balanced/focused on the team based PvP. Where teams of different tools will work better together.

I expect 1v1 you'll see a large advantage the more dmg you individually can do as in most games. However, as i said above all of the PvP in this games more or less bent around the idea of squad/team/raiding PvP so its gonna be more large scale balancing.