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Phase I of Alpha Two testing will occur on weekends. Each weekend is scheduled to start on Fridays at 10 AM PT and end on Sundays at 10 PM PT. Find out more here.
Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest Alpha Two news and update notes.
Our quickest Alpha Two updates are in Discord. Testers with Alpha Two access can chat in Alpha Two channels by connecting your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Lets Talk Gameplay: Action-Hybrid Combat and Tab Targeting Combat
ArchivedUser
Guest
I love the ideas behind Ashes of Creation. I am amazed at the progress that the development team has made in such a short time, while maintaining the highest quality. Now, I have no doubt that the game will be fantastic, however, with that being said, there is almost certainly going to be an issue with balancing Action Combat and Tab Targeting.
Now, before I start criticizing their vision in combat, let me explain their vision in combat:
Hybrid, and Tab-Targeting will both be balanced combat options.
Now, the vision and the idea is absolutely fantastic...if it was a perfect world. But here is the issue, besides the giant task it would take to balance the two styles, failure is tremendously harmful to the game. Lets take a look at why.
Factors:
Game Balance
New Players
Game Balance:
If, for some reason, the development team fails in making the two systems balanced, then one play style will have an advantage over another. Now, besides the obvious reason why you would want pvp to be balanced, this hurts pve as well. You don't want to make dungeons either too hard nor too easy. You want to make it a challenge, yet achievable. But if one play-style is better than another, then the dungeon will be either too hard or too easy for the other.
New Players:
Any ruining of game balance or worst, one clearly more fun than the other becomes a risk to new players regardless of personal taste. Imagine starting a new game, you know very little about it besides what your friend has told you, you choose a play-style because he says its the most fun way to play. And you get bored because you aren't a fan of the combat and look for another MMORPG. Little did you as a new player know that they would have LOVED the combat had they chosen the other option! By introducing multiple systems, you are making a risk of a player not enjoying that play-style and thus dropping the game. Not getting new players is literally an MMO killer.
Proposal:
Pick one style. Whether that is the hybrid system, or the tab targeting. Pick one, and perfect it. The only pay to play MMORPG's worth their salt, World of Warcraft and Final Fantasy 14 did exactly that. Picking one play-style gives players a similar experience, makes balancing combat easier, and eliminates the risk of scaring new players away.
TL;DR: In order to guarantee game balance and keep as many new players as possible, perfecting one combat style is preferable to having multiple options.
To get a better understanding of what everyone thinks about it (and doesn't want to comment) like this post if you agree, and "LOL" if you disagree.
Now, before I start criticizing their vision in combat, let me explain their vision in combat:
Hybrid, and Tab-Targeting will both be balanced combat options.
Now, the vision and the idea is absolutely fantastic...if it was a perfect world. But here is the issue, besides the giant task it would take to balance the two styles, failure is tremendously harmful to the game. Lets take a look at why.
Factors:
Game Balance
New Players
Game Balance:
If, for some reason, the development team fails in making the two systems balanced, then one play style will have an advantage over another. Now, besides the obvious reason why you would want pvp to be balanced, this hurts pve as well. You don't want to make dungeons either too hard nor too easy. You want to make it a challenge, yet achievable. But if one play-style is better than another, then the dungeon will be either too hard or too easy for the other.
New Players:
Any ruining of game balance or worst, one clearly more fun than the other becomes a risk to new players regardless of personal taste. Imagine starting a new game, you know very little about it besides what your friend has told you, you choose a play-style because he says its the most fun way to play. And you get bored because you aren't a fan of the combat and look for another MMORPG. Little did you as a new player know that they would have LOVED the combat had they chosen the other option! By introducing multiple systems, you are making a risk of a player not enjoying that play-style and thus dropping the game. Not getting new players is literally an MMO killer.
Proposal:
Pick one style. Whether that is the hybrid system, or the tab targeting. Pick one, and perfect it. The only pay to play MMORPG's worth their salt, World of Warcraft and Final Fantasy 14 did exactly that. Picking one play-style gives players a similar experience, makes balancing combat easier, and eliminates the risk of scaring new players away.
TL;DR: In order to guarantee game balance and keep as many new players as possible, perfecting one combat style is preferable to having multiple options.
To get a better understanding of what everyone thinks about it (and doesn't want to comment) like this post if you agree, and "LOL" if you disagree.
0
Comments
While I can appreciate the notion that there will be people unhappy with whatever you give them, I can also say people will do one style or the other because they simply love it.
So if you don't like tab you take more action skills and vice versa.
So i don't see how you can scare new players away by giving them more options...
As far as why giving them more options can be potentially ruinous, its because of people's bias'. People will certainly recommend one play-style over another to their friends, and this can make that player have a bad experience and not even bother to try the other play-style. As they have already deemed it less fun.
Personally, I think a hybrid system is better. In order to separate yourselves from the combat style of WoW and FF14, hybrid is an excellent choice.
If only tab targeting was easy to code/implement and already done by the team.
If only action combat was being tested right freaking now so it will be smooth.
If only we could test different ways of mixing, matching and finding a balance between the two with community feedback until we find a nice mix and if the feedback is overwhelmingly in one direction or another the developers could just use what they have built up already.
This isn't risk, this is massive effort to code and develop TWO combat systems and some balance testing to come, to fine tune the balance in a hybrid system.
I would say keep your breeches on and let's give real feedback when we have tangible stuff in our hands of what a hybrid system looks like.
Maybe you like it maybe you don't, point is does that stop you from trying other flavors or ever eating ice cream again?
Having more options does just that for you, having more options to potentially find something you like.
With 64 class types, balancing is already going to be an incredibly difficult feat with just one control type. But then you want to have each class be balanced with TWO different control types? Yeah, not likely.
Maybe you feel that balance isn't important, but having "fun" is what is important. And you would be right! But in a game that is so heavily focused on pvp and player conflict, balance is essential. And a lack of balance can quite literally destroy the fun.
But take for instance if its your first time eating ice cream. It is like if a kid eats poorly cooked asparagus, that kid will say he doesn't like asparagus! Now if you bring that to an MMO, and your friend says this is the best, most fun way to play the game, then if they decide they don't like it, they won't "try." the other play-style. They will just quit.
Ah, excuse my language, I meant that they should have the same in regards to controls or be locked to a class i.e either tab targeting or the hybrid combat. As opposed to one class having several different control types (not counting different builds).
The change in play-styles should be only class specific as opposed to control-type specific AND class specific.
I did not mean to insult your intelligence. I was just trying to make a point that we haven't even seen what the hybrid looks like, and we as a community have the power to change how combat is with feedback (not speculation) once we get our hands on it.
As mentioned, they are essentially developing TWO combat systems for the hybrid so it will not be a difficult feat to scrap one if it is disastrous.
And oh yes, the 64 classes. Man I really wish they never mentioned that, and now they always have to qualify it with: keep in mind that your secondary class choice only augments, it doesn't add extra spells when people freak out and ask about the "impossible balance". You should NOT think of it as 64 UNIQUE classes. There are 8 unique classes with tons of customization where no two players within the same class (out of the 8) will feel the same. That's how you should really think about it.
But but they each have a cool name! There still are not 64 unique classes. Your choice of secondary class is augmentation/customization. Imagine playing old wow where instead of 3 talent trees you have 8 talent trees for each class and the talent trees actually changed your abilities in some way instead of predominantly giving passive stats. So balance is really not that impossible.
Ultimately though, at the crux of all posts like this, is the point that we still need to give them an opportunity to fail before we freak out. We can't predict the future, no matter how strongly we believe it... we just gotta wait and see the first iteration and help improve it by being constructive.
WoW made a statement in the past against seperating skilldamage values in pve and pvp because it is to much to ask from people to read the skill for 2 different situations.
It would solve all the problems very soon, but they are unwilling for any given ridiculous reason. <shrug> I honestly don't think that over time balancing is an issue, just wether or not companies are willing to do it is the question.
I'm pretty sure Steven mentioned that only a few skills are fixed. All other skills are either action or tab. Probably depending on your choices in the Skilltree.
I think it was when he played with Krojak. He said something about 75-80% of the skills that can be either action or tab.
But i can't look it up right now. So correct me if i'm mistaken.
Combat targeting
Through skill choice, players can customize their combat experience to focus on tab targeted skills, action targeted skills, or a mix of both.[5]
- It may not be possible to be able to fully spec into just action
or tab targeted skills. There might be a 75% cap on choosing skills
from any one type.[6]
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/CombatAs you pointed out there were still only a few skills affected so it tok even more years to really implement it. Hence unwilling.
Hell.. I would much rather see games going the BDO route (in terms of combat), the combat in BDO is absolutely amazing, one of the most satisfying combat systems currently in a MMO (struggling to find anything else to say about BDO that is good though). But the safe and simple route is obviously tab-targeting, which is why all the mainstream MMO's are doing just that, sadly.
I think @onystyle's worries are justified, and I don't see why people have to reply with sarcasm to belittle his view on the matter, especially when it's a legitimate concern.