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The importance of PVP and a detailed look in to the Corruption/Flagging Mechanic

Hi all, I have now uploaded a new video explaining the importance of PVP and a full overview of the Corruption / Flagging system.

Video can be found on Youtube: Ashes of Creation PVP and Corruption - Kill or Be Killed

Would love for you to check it out and let me know what you think!
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Comments

  • I wouldn't call reading out a wiki 'A detailed look'
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited November 2018
    Pretty good, i enjoyed it but i noticed 2 1 things you got wrong.

    1. I think you miss-spoke but you said a player becomes corrupted by attacking a green player not killing them. 

    2. You mention there are rewards for pvp such as achievements, titles, and leaderboards but from what we know, those are only for arena pvp, not open world. As you mentioned, they are trying to promote meaningful conflict and don't want to be rewarded just for the act of killing someone. The reward for open world pvp is supposed to be things like the resources you loot, spawn you gained control of, and the enjoyment of taking out someone who wronged you.
  • It was a good informative video, you did incorrectly state that you would become corrupted from just attacking someone who is green.  You actually have to kill them without them fighting back. 

    @McStackerson there will be a leader board for world pvp as well. That'll coincide with things like world raid kills and such. In sure they'll probably have arena leader boards too since in most mmorpg the arena is more of a mini game that is separate from what happens in world pvp
  • If someone kills a corrupted player they, themselves, will not become corrupted.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited November 2018
    @McKnightrider
    Pretty sure their won't unless you have a quote that specifies otherwise. They have said several times they don't want to encourage outright pking which i'd think a pvp leaderboard would do. There is a pvp component to any open world achievement so i'd argue their doesn't need to be a coinciding pvp achievement for them.
  • @McStackerson

    Towards the bottom labeled metrics. 
    https://ashesofcreation.wiki/PvP

    They talk about recording kills, successful caravan raids, sieges etc. Whether it's a full blown leader board, I can't say for sure but they'll record that type of information and you'll get accolades for being at the top. Sounds leader board-ish.
  • @McKnightrider
    Yep, i'm wrong. My bad.
  • @McKnightrider
    Yep, i'm wrong. My bad.
    The great plan has failed 
  • Yay! A post where someone semi-states their happy with PvP! :smile:

    ...didn't read/watch whatever OP posted.
  • Also didnt whatch, totally came in here ready to be dissapointed. KUDOS! Even if im unaware of the point. 

    Now is a great time to close the thread before the caravan of betas arrive.
  • Pretty good, i enjoyed it but i noticed 2 1 things you got wrong.

    1. I think you miss-spoke but you said a player becomes corrupted by attacking a green player not killing them. 

    @McStackerson ;@McKnightrider Yes you are absolutely right on the first point. I made sure to pin the correction on the video in the comments. Thank you all! 
  • Thanks for the video Klein. It's an excellent watch!
  • Atheto said:
    Thanks for the video Klein. It's an excellent watch!
    Thanks buddy! Time to think of the next topic
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited November 2018
    Really dont like the OWPVP system a whole lot. Any chances of a more owpvp friendly server? Without losing items on one kill? Without getting weaker for corruption? Most fun owpvp i had let you kill 3 neutral or 6 enemy players or 10 enemy guild players. Before you started losing gear. And you just afk to lose PK points. Took 3hrs to get back to 0. No quests to lose them.
    So some dude comes and tries to steal my hunting area, starts talking shit, i go kill him, he dosent attack back, now im corrupted and lose equipped items if i die??? Along with 3 or 4x exp, etc etc. 
  • @Atrocities Amazingly similar post on Reddit about this topic. Please take the time to go to https://aocwiki.net/PvP and read this  https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Fvr9KYT104i8WYppCup1v6SUTZFJTobVz8uRHDas4YM/edit
    they both will give you more information on how OWPVP works in Ashes. Your example of losing items for killing one person is wrong, you would have kill multiple people flagged green for corruption to reach the level of item loss. Also it isn't all items, but a chance of items being destroyed or dropped. If you want to hue hue hue about what you don't like from a system we have yet to test, at least familiarize yourself with what they have envisioned so far.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited November 2018
    Sorry but i watched the video, and rewatched it again. From what i got was one kill on green player you got corrupt flag, thus gear was not safe upon death. Dosent say anything about amount of kills. Thanks for the link i go read.
     
    Edit. I still dont see # of kills before dropping gear. It still sounds like after 1 kill you have % chance to drop.
      From wiki.

    Players gain a drop % on each item they are currently wearing as well as in their inventory
    1. Higher % with a higher corruption score
    Corrupted can drop completed gear.
  • Sorry but i watched the video, and rewatched it again. From what i got was one kill on green player you got corrupt flag, thus gear was not safe upon death. Dosent say anything about amount of kills. Thanks for the link i go read.
     
    Edit. I still dont see # of kills before dropping gear. It still sounds like after 1 kill you have % chance to drop.
      From wiki.

    Players gain a drop % on each item they are currently wearing as well as in their inventory
    1. Higher % with a higher corruption score
    Corrupted can drop completed gear.
    There isn't a set # of kills to determine gear. You're corrupt, you can drop gear, the further you're corrupted the higher chance to drop gear. Killing someone higher level then you and becoming corrupted could yield only a low corruption score. We don't really know the drop rate of gear, I would assume it's rather low. Starting under 10% low. I'm not sure even Intrepid want's someone who is corrupted to die 5 straight times and lose 5 pieces of gear before you lose corruption. Even for PKer that's excessive. I'm sure once the system exist people will test it with crappy gear that they don't mind losing and figure out the drop rate.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited November 2018
    Bottom line is that if you want to gank and grief people left and right and be rewarded for it, this isn’t the game for you.

    If you want to gank and grief and you’re willing to live with the consequences then you can in AoC.

    My favorite experience in Elder Scrolls Online was shoplifting from an NPC vendor, getting caught, and running like a rabbit out of town with guards chasing me.  After outdistancing them I hid behind some rocks until the heat died down.  It was a rush and felt like a real world.  Sometimes it’s the bad things you suffer that provide the challenge needed to make a game fun.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited November 2018
    @Atama Bottom line is im not talking about ganking people and griefing people. Im talking about trolls and spawn stealers being invincible. Basically the opposite of what your assuming. 
    Your at a spawn leveling and a group of 2 or 3 people come and steal it or grief you, you damn right imma fight for it. But they just lol @ you cause they know they aint gonna attack back. You hit them once they dont attack back. Now what? You leave? Fight over it for the next 2 hours and see whose more persistent and stays longer? Or you kill them go red and leave in the end anyways. Then die on the way back to town and lose gear. Or waste a "long time" as the wiki says to get rid of corruption. 
    Or are they baiting you to kill then get corrupt and have a few high level friends waiting to pounce the second you go red?

    Also if im bein hunted by bounty huntes i sure as hell would wanna be able to defend myself with 100% of my stats and strenght.
    Thats all im sayin'. 

    Im not sure what griefing means these days in mmo's, cause back in the day if someone killed you, you called back up and a war started, or you just go back and fight. But these days since gear is 99% of strength and not skill its kinda hard. 
    But i remember the good old days of KOS lists, and hunting down sworn enemies every day. Or being hunted. You just delt with it. Thats what an mmo was. You die you move on. 

    Griefing to me would be following you all over maps taking your kills and farming spots, and talking smack to you all day etc. Etc. 
  • Griefing means having fun ruining the game for others.  It means what it has meant for decades.  It can be kill stealing, or camping, or killing players who are too weak to fight back.  Some players just enjoy that kind of thing.

    It’s risky to not fight back if you’re green.  Getting attacked and not fighting back means you suffer double the XP debt, durability loss, and drop twice as many resources.  If you do fight back (turning purple) and get killed, your enemy doesn’t turn red but you suffer only half of what you’d do if you didn’t fight back.

    This wiki page explains it:
    https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Player_flagging

    Basically the system strongly encourages consensual PvP but gives extra penalties (to both sides) in non-consensual PvP.

    If someone is legitimately harrassing you though, you do what you’d do in any MMO and report them.  Attacking them is probably dumb.  The situation you described however (you’re camping a spawn and people come in to take it) sounds like the kind of competition that this game encourages.
  • Getting attacked and not fighting back means you suffer the normal xp debt, durability loss and resource drop - flagging as a combatant means you will suffer half of that.
    The system encourages PvP combat - not strongly encourages PvP combat.
  • Im not sure what griefing means these days in mmo's, cause back in the day if someone killed you, you called back up and a war started, or you just go back and fight. But these days since gear is 99% of strength and not skill its kinda hard. 
    But i remember the good old days of KOS lists, and hunting down sworn enemies every day. Or being hunted. You just delt with it. Thats what an mmo was. You die you move on. 

    Griefing to me would be following you all over maps taking your kills and farming spots, and talking smack to you all day etc. Etc. 
    By the time of Vanilla EQ, non-consensual PvP combat was considered griefing.
    Because, it resulted in full loot and corpse runs, in addition to xp debt - commonly even extra time on top of that waiting for the mob/loot you were hunting to respawn.
    Griefing because it's stealing a great deal of game time.

    These days, getting ganked isn't necessarily griefing - quick or no corpse runs, no full loot, little to no xp debt and little to no wait waiting for mobs to respawn. the consequences of death are not as high as they were 20 years ago.

    I typically ignore in-game chat anyways, so trying to talk smack to me is pointless and not griefing. I'm following twitch chat or discord chat with friends while I play.
    And, people almost never follow me when I move to a new hunting spot because I go well off the beaten path. My issue is being forced to fight when I'm not in the mood and then having to travel back to retrieve my corpse (or suffer higher penalties), thereby risking a griefing cycle if my corpse is being camped.
    If I'm on a PvE server, I can't be griefed - unless it's possible for players to block entrances... which I have never experienced. Even trains didn't feel like griefing because my corpse wouldn't camped or looted.

    I don't own spawns I'm farming, so spawns can't really be stolen. Kills can't really be stolen, but, I guess if it were possible for someone to follow me and steal most of my kills that might be griefing - I'm not sure for Ashes since that would probably also still be progressing my Node. And depends on how xp is distributed for damage dealt.

    I typically hate non-consensual PvP in MMORPGs. 
    In Bless Online, it wasn't an issue because the only real consequence was a less-than-five-minute corpse run. Barely affected my gameplay time.
    I'm not sure what player behavior will actually constitute griefing in Ashes.
    I'll have to play the game to truly know.

    If you're defending yourself from bounty hunters, you've killed a non-combatant - forcing a PvP combat encounter on someone who didn't wish to participate. So, the consequence of that would be you being forced into a situation where you engage in PvP combat with lowered stats.
  • @Atrocities
    In Ashes, the reason to engage in PvP combat over spawn sites should be more meaningful than just gaining xp. 
    The EQNext example was farming dryads in order to siphon Life energy and transmute it into Shadow magic that would then be used to empower Shadow abilities - including Stealth. The flip side being that if xxx Dryads are killed, Shadow Demons will break their shackles and begin rampaging across Kithicor destroying all life. 

    If I'm a Rogue, I would probably be willing to engage in PvP combat if players try to stop me from gathering the Life energy I need to empower my Stealth abilities. Or we might reach a negotiation where I'm willing to leave if I think I've gathered enough Life energy.
    Or, on the flip side, if I'm a Druid protecting the region from the threat of the Shadow Demons escaping, I would probably be willing to engage in PvP combat if that's going to prevent an even greater catastrophe in the region.

    All more meaningful than just, KOS because of race or faction or because some other player has the same quest I do and/or is hunting the same mobs.

    Hopefully the Daybreak devs will be incorporating meaningful conflict into the Ashes world.
  • Dygz said:
    Getting attacked and not fighting back means you suffer the normal xp debt, durability loss and resource drop - flagging as a combatant means you will suffer half of that.
    The system encourages PvP combat - not strongly encourages PvP combat.
    You realize there is no difference...  Either green is double the normal cost or purple is half the normal cost.  You might as well be arguing if a glass is half full or half empty.  Both are true.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited November 2018
    Dying as a combatant is not double the normal cost.
    Dying as a combatant is double the discounted cost.


  • Dygz said:
    Dying as a combatant is not double the normal cost.
    Dying as a combatant is double the discounted cost.


    Discounted from what?  The “normal”?

    If 99% of the time you die in PvP you are purple then that’s “normal” to you.  And dying while green is double the normal cost.  If dying while green is what you’re used to, then dying while purple is a discount.

    Again it’s completely based on perspective.  Arguing otherwise is silly.
  • Here is a question for you.

    If you are flagged and fighting in a castle siege or attacking/defending a caravan do you incur death penalties? as in experience debt and dropping a portion of any gathered resources you carry.  
  • @Varkun
    • PVP death will result in negative experience
    • Character Penalties 
      • Stat degradation
      • Lowered health and mana
      • Lowered gear proficiency
    • Combantants receive less penalty than non-combantants
    • Corrupted receive 3x or 4x that of Combantants
    • Corrupted can drop completed gear
    • Normal death, dying while not corrupt, you only have the opportunity to drop materials and resources
    I would say yes^^
  • @Varkun Notice he does not type "pvp death."

    This will discourage people from just trying to zerg content that they are too low for or are not skilled enough to do. "We know we have a very small chance on downing that boss with this current group, but we are going to just keep wiping on it till we get it!" won't be a thing. Steven has said that exp debt in proximity to open world dungeons and raids will be reduced further though so as to not discourage attempts. But people who just like to run into content without thinking, or those that try to attempt "suicide spawning" to get around fast travel restrictions are in for a shock.
  • So do not bring bags full of raw materials to a castle siege :D. Might make it very interesting if you see that player you just killed has dropped loot for you right in the middle of storming the city walls.
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