Player Driven Economy

Devorandom

So I got kinda curious, based of a conversation in a different thread, about what the community thinks a Player Driven Economy is. I think it is just the Buying and Selling of items in the game world being done primarily through transactions between players. What do you guys think?

Atli

So they have gone over this quite a bit. I think this LINK is the most comprehensive page regarding your question. they did say there will be NPCs that can sell your wares, that way you don't have to spend 14 hours going door to door like a shoe sales-person. (See player stalls)

That being said, when you're seeking a player driven economy as a developer, I think they are just going to create the tools needed to do anything you want in game. Undercut another competitor? Create monopolies? Steal from others? All of those means of nefarious capitalism are going to be implemented in game, or allowable. Now the consequences of such are another matter this is one element I've always been bored about with games, as the only thing you could do is find people selling crap in the global auction house for a cheaper price, buy it, then re-post it. This requires skill, to be sure, but also is very tedious and is only a single facet of a possibly rich and engaging game play mode.

I hope I can be good enough at stopping caravans to be hire able by these merchant lords.

Devorandom

@Atli I'm not asking as to how the economy in AoC is going to work. I'm familiar with that. I'm asking what people think defines a player Driven economy.

Atli

devorandom wrote: »

@Atli I'm not asking as to how the economy in AoC is going to work. I'm familiar with that. I'm asking what people think defines a player Driven economy.

@devorandom That's fine, just covering all bases- the link pretty much aligns with my thinking of a player driven economy, much like EvE online, for example. Developers provide the in game tools that allow them to do what they want, and the rest is up to the imagination of the player. Its far different than merchant fixed pricing that we often see with traditional MMOs. Even ESO has dipped a little into player driven economy simply by not having a World Auction House or Galactic Trade Center (Wow and SWTOR, respectively.) But ESO stops there. This seems to indicate one can take this SO much further.

devorandom wrote: »

I think it is just the Buying and Selling of items in the game world being done primarily through transactions between players.

I don't think ti'll be this simplistic. Open player economies also encourage the sale of not just goods, but services too. Because nodes have different resources and the further away you transport a resource the higher a price such items will go for, you're going to have to move product. That requires protection. with the value of these carted goods lootable, I think you're going to have guild spies trying to get their hands on information regarding resource caravan routes, you'll then have guilds that run fake information down the pipe to weed out spies and moles, and you're going to have mercenary companies being paid actual in game currency to protect raiders while they down a world boss, so other players can't grief and wipe a raid. these are intangible services that will still be of value and thus part of the economy.

FulltimeWife

for me personally a player driven economy is having to work to sell or buy items, no matter if there is a strategy or profit behind it. who remembers runescape like euhmm 13 years ago ? where you would have to type over and over with pinky finger on shift till hands hurt bcus good autotypers were hard to find and bannable. but when all those trade requests came in it was so rewarding lol. maybe not the best example but thats what it means for me : actually having to work to get rid of items.

Devorandom

@Atli Again im just talking about the definition of the term "Player Driven Economy". Im not sure what the guild spies have to do with the definition of the term.

You say that not having an auction house makes an economy player driven, but how so? An auction house is completely player driven.

Morashtak

A player driven economy should center around the money supply growing based primarily on the free exchange of goods and services between players and only in a minor, secondarily way through the acquisition of currency dropped by monsters.

Really, as soon as we set foot in Verra are the monsters are going to drop freshly minted... what? Verra-bucks, Verra-orbs/Vorbs, Verra coinage/Voins...?

One can see monsters dropping ore and ingots as well as other resources early on then as server data shows a high number of players deaths coins can be added to monster loot drop table.

Devorandom

@Easylife That's interesting. So in your mind as long as there is not convenient way to set up transactions outside of hawking your goods, that is what qualifies as player driven economy?

Devorandom

@Morashtak So in your mind the primary method of gaining wealth in the game is what determines whether its a player driven economy?

Morashtak

devorandom wrote: »

@Morashtak So in your mind the primary method of gaining wealth in the game is what determines whether its a player driven economy?

Not quite. You left out "free exchange of goods and services between players...". While NPCs should be hirelings for such tasks as helping to sell goods they should not be the primary shop keepers.

IS has stated that there will be gold sinks but with the addition of the item degradation mechanic PCs rather than NPCs should be the main beneficiaries of the mechanic. This would allow currency to float around and throughout the economy rather than tossed into a bottomless pit. Granted, while this will drive some inflation I hope that a restriction on currency drops by monsters will curb the Zimbabwe style inflation we have seen take place in WoW.

Atli

devorandom wrote: »

You say that not having an auction house makes an economy player driven, but how so? An auction house is completely player driven.

An auction house is not completely player driven. Did they create the AH? Nope.

Here's an example I am hoping conveys my thoughts on this. I am not an economist, far from it in fact. You have Player1 who doesn't want to use the developer implemented AH. He does just fine by going to the the popular town of Bantwood to announce his wares in the local zone chat. When an MMO expansion comes out, a new zone appears that includes the latest armor, dailies, quests, trinkets, etc. that the game has. This is to drive the player to visit this location and /or have a convenient hub nearby all the shiny new things. This in turn, dries out population elsewhere. Lack of population means Player1 in Bantwood has less people seeing his eloquently crafted marketing offers in chat. There is also nothing that player can do to alter the reality of the situation other than move to the new zone, but no player impacted his strategy- a developer did. In a player driven economy, player1 can make Bantwood more attractive than the new zone.

Now, this is a very crude example of how developers often interfere in player driven economics.

Auction houses are a convenience solely created by the developers, not the player. If item A cost 100g, someone trying to rip someone off for 400g is unlikely to fly (unless he's the only one selling- people can be desperate). But you remove that convenience factor of an AH, and now players have to work to move goods to a location where they can get the best price. That will fluctuate and you will have to rely on other players to understand the market better. With an AH, you just needs yourself, or maybe a mod that tells you when to buy or sell.

devorandom wrote: »

Im not sure what the guild spies have to do with the definition of the term.

It was merely an example of a service that can be traded, thanks to developers not meddling in how trade is conducted. Services have more meaning in a game with a more open world philosophy. Can't recall being able to sell dungeon runs or PvP protection in an Auction House

FulltimeWife

Yes imo that or a small market where you cant go afk from would be a true player driven economy wich changes by the hour and city. But i think that Ashes having economic regions comes close as long there is enough player interaction. I agree there should always be a need to trade 1 to 1. Its sad that games like gw2 dont have this. Everything in trading goes trough a simple ui

Devorandom

@Morashtak Ok so the reason I disagree with your definition is that what defines an economy is basically the expenditure/consumption of money or materials. Thats why I think that all a player driven economy requires is that players primarily do trading of most relevant items between each other.

But because I have noticed that people feel that there is more to it than that ive begun thinking that a player driven economy should have sub-types such as crafting based economy or a grind based economy.

Devorandom

@Atli I would say that the flaw in that reasoning is that nothing in a game is player made. You are using the program made by the developers to advertise by the in game chat system to do the same thing you would have done at an auction house. Also auction houses can be manipulated plenty and that also does not remove the option of doing it by selling something in a trade or zone chat either.

But by your definition wouldn't any game that had options other than the auction house count as a player driven economy, and that would be every MMO.

Devorandom

@Easylife So I will give you a similar response to the one I gave Morashtak in that the way I define a player driven economy is by the actual definition of what an economy is. So that would be the expenditure or consumption of currency or resources. So I think its better to break these different types of economies into sub-types. Where your version would for example be called simply a regional player driven economy. Also AoC will have auction house that will be node or ZoI locked, so it will be like most other MMOs just with regional differences.

Azathoth

I think of it as one that fluctuates with player populace and demand.

So as certain gear types become more popular the following would occur:

-Players that gather will gather more of those base materials to sell generating a currency flow out to farmers
-Materials purchased will be used by those smiths who make a profit, generating a currency flow into the city
-Players travel from points A to B with currency to buy gear, generating a non-static currency flow.

Players cause the demand and meet it with supply. This process generates currency flow between different types of players and different locations.

When the players choose to stop shopping in a certain location, that economy could tank.
When players jump to the next cool set of gear, supply and demand will also shift, potentially disrupting (or improving) local economies.

That's it for me. I am not an economist and I have to say my answer does lean towards how I believe the Ashes economy will work.

Ferryman

Defining player-driven economy in MMORPGs is relatively easy. If all or most of the items are made and traded by the players, then we can speak of player-driven economy. That is the starting point.

There can be different kind of mechanics to spice up the system, like how the trading is actually happening (marketplace, auctionhouse, shop, f2f). At the end, it does not matter how the trade is accomplished, more important is, that it is done by players.

FulltimeWife

devorandom wrote: »

so it will be like most other MMOs just with regional differences.

good description

Ferryman

Few examples of player-driven economies in MMORPGs can be found from games like: Runescape (atleast OS), EvE Online, Albion Online, Gloria Victis, Camelot Unchained, Fractured, Crowfall... there are of course more, but these are the ones I am familiar with. People could visit other games' websites to get more information how player-driven economy has or will be implemented in their game.