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Rushing to End Game....Is it a problem?

sojourn85sojourn85 Member, Founder, Kickstarter, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
edited April 2019 in General Discussion
EDIT: This post isn't directed solely to Ashes of Creation. It's more of a generalized discussion on games as a whole.

Good evening all! I wanted to get the communities opinion on the topic of Rushing to End Game.

For as long as I can remember I have, the last 10 years at a minimum, started a game with friends and rushed towards the "end game." Star Wars: The Old Republic, Final Fantasy XIV: ARR/Heavensward, Grim Dawn, Torchlight 2, Destiny 2, Anthem, and most recently The Elder Scrolls Online. All of these games were great games, and I looked forward to their release. My issue is that aside from being fun, I didn't pay much attention to the story or lore unless it was a main story mission that caught my attention. The Mass Effect and Dragon Age series are well known for great story, and when I played those, I took my time to enjoy them and understand what I was partaking in.

So my question to all of you is this; Do you have the same issue? And if you do is it a problem with us, the game, or the idea that the game is only fun at the "end game?" So much time and effort goes into making great stories and lore for these games, but I find myself just clicking through the dialog to finish the quest and move on to the next thing.

I'm hoping that I can not do that with Ashes and enjoy the world they are creating for us.

Thanks for your time!
Gamer, Husband, Father, and Hard Working Individual. Let's have fun!
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Comments

  • AzathothAzathoth Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    No end game! Go Ashes!
    #stoptheendgameBS
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    +1 Skull & Crown metal coin
  • JahlonJahlon Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    You can try to rush to end game.

    But since the end game only appears as the world is developed, you are going to be rushing out of the gate and fall flat on your face in about 9 seconds.

    No nodes? No Dungeons
    No Nodes? No Crafting
    No nodes? No Raids

    First nodes = first dungeons

    Nodes upgrade = Dungeon Bosses and their mechanics change

    hpsmlCJ.jpg
    Make sure to check out Ashes 101
  • grisugrisu Member
    There are different kinds of games and different kinds of gamers. Anthem and Destiny are 2 games that, in my opinion have absolutly no need for a leveling phase and rushing through the leveling is more a "getting used to the mechanics of the game".
    That said, if you have it then no need doesn't equal unimportant and I think that rush that developed over the last 15 years or so is just a reflection of the attitude developers take to leveling. It's a fucking time sink, nothing more, filled with the absolut minimum to even count as content. The last years especially are an absolut dumpster fire to that metholodgy.

    Imo, especially for an MMO the leveling journey is the first step to come to love the game. If it's just an afterthought then by the time that I get to "endgame" I'm already looking at the game way more critical.
    The leveling introduces me to the world and it's quirks. If it's just generic bull then why would the rest be any better?
    I doubt I ever invested any time in reading wow's quest in classic or burning crusade, but the way they introduced me to the world, the magic, it's inhabitants, the ecosystem. It all made sense, it all felt like it had a reason it existed the way it did. It was still a time sink, no questions asked, but it was an enjoyable timesink in which you constantly learned new things.

    So yeah I understand why people rush through, but I wish it wasn't so.
    I can be a life fulfilling dream. - Zekece
    I can be a life devouring nightmare. - Grisu#1819
  • sojourn85sojourn85 Member, Founder, Kickstarter, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    jahlon wrote: »
    You can try to rush to end game.

    But since the end game only appears as the world is developed, you are going to be rushing out of the gate and fall flat on your face in about 9 seconds.

    No nodes? No Dungeons
    No Nodes? No Crafting
    No nodes? No Raids

    First nodes = first dungeons

    Nodes upgrade = Dungeon Bosses and their mechanics change

    The Node system gives me hope, but I was also speaking generally about games as a whole. Aside from AoC, what are your thoughts on rushing to end game?
    Gamer, Husband, Father, and Hard Working Individual. Let's have fun!
  • aevariaevari Member, Alpha Two
    Personally, I don't like to rush towards endgame, I like to take my time and really enjoy the game,lore and world. And more importantly, have lots of things to do still while I'm waiting for new updates/expansions

    If you want to do that, then go for it. It is ultimately your decision.
    "If you lose sight of something, the only person who can find it again is you"
  • sojourn85sojourn85 Member, Founder, Kickstarter, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    aevari wrote: »
    Personally, I don't like to rush towards endgame, I like to take my time and really enjoy the game,lore and world. And more importantly, have lots of things to do still while I'm waiting for new updates/expansions

    If you want to do that, then go for it. It is ultimately your decision.

    That's true. but I was hoping to get insight other than it's your decision. Do you think it's game design, poor story, or is it purely the person making the choice to skip all the content? A perfect example from me is yesterday my uncle and I were leveling in ESO. We're both beginners, and out of habit I just skip through quest dialog and go where I need to, etc. My uncle was like, "Can we take our time and actually read what we are doing?" It's not that I don't want to, it's just become a habit to rush through things because I've been conditioned/brainwashed into thinking the end game is where the fun is.
    Gamer, Husband, Father, and Hard Working Individual. Let's have fun!
  • AzathothAzathoth Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    In general its a play style and one people enjoy. I compare it to players that min/max or love to grief. I don't get it, it's not my style, but it for sure has a community.

    I would prefer slow progression even as a casual. My only real problem with end game 'rushers' is they are usually the first ones that make noise about needing new content.
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    +1 Skull & Crown metal coin
  • DevorandomDevorandom Member, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited April 2019
    I agree with Johlon that nodes will really slow down progression as well as the fact that the devs basically said there will be no end game in the traditional sense. The only reason there is a rush to end game in the first place is that all the relevant content is there and nothing during the leveling process really matters. AoC won't do that if the devs pull off what they say they want to.
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  • Steven doesn't like "end game". And as i see it, end game in ashes is server supremacy which will require mass coordination to achieve. Sure you have high level dungeons and a narrative to follow, but conflict is the biggest gear driving ashes as i see it and thus end game is a term that remains sort of undefined in ashes.

    Kinda like China's warring states or pre three kingdoms period. You fight whoever to make yourself bigger and when someone gets too big, you bring them down a notch. Rinse and repeat. Just a global scale slugfest is the end game in Ashes. Unless i'm wrong of course, then feel free to correct me
    Where there is light, there is shadow. I am the shadow without the light. The shadow of nothingness. The VoidShadow
  • Rem_Rem_ Member
    edited April 2019
    Sojourn85 wrote: »
    EDIT: This post isn't directed solely to Ashes of Creation. It's more of a generalized discussion on games as a whole.

    Good evening all! I wanted to get the communities opinion on the topic of Rushing to End Game.

    For as long as I can remember I have, the last 10 years at a minimum, started a game with friends and rushed towards the "end game." Star Wars: The Old Republic, Final Fantasy XIV: ARR/Heavensward, Grim Dawn, Torchlight 2, Destiny 2, Anthem, and most recently The Elder Scrolls Online. All of these games were great games, and I looked forward to their release. My issue is that aside from being fun, I didn't pay much attention to the story or lore unless it was a main story mission that caught my attention. The Mass Effect and Dragon Age series are well known for great story, and when I played those, I took my time to enjoy them and understand what I was partaking in.

    So my question to all of you is this; Do you have the same issue? And if you do is it a problem with us, the game, or the idea that the game is only fun at the "end game?" So much time and effort goes into making great stories and lore for these games, but I find myself just clicking through the dialog to finish the quest and move on to the next thing.

    I'm hoping that I can not do that with Ashes and enjoy the world they are creating for us.

    Thanks for your time!

    I haven't played an MMO myself, Ashes will be my first.

    Looking at it from an outside view, I feel like rushing to end game is terrible. Most likely the rush is because early and mid game are terrible..? If that's so, when new players join they'll be instantly turned off the by terrible and old things offered. By being turned off, they won't even be able to see the end game anyway.

    I feel like a game should definitely be more then just the end, obviously people will get to max level or whatever it is in MMOs (I think they have a cap? but I've seen ones without caps)

    The early and mid game should be important, not stale bland, old and untouched. First impressions are a LOT. I tried WoW one single time, and loaded in to having to just click on some boars or something and watch my guy just automatically hit them. It felt mind numbingly boring, both because the combat was tab-targeting and because I did nothing at all, just clicked some quest accepted and clicked onto the enemy.


    So... I feel like rushing to end game is absolutely terrible for a game! ^-^ <3
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  • ArgentDawnArgentDawn Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Typically in competative games I rush to "end game" or at least a part of the game that I can start to get some of the strongest gear. Open world games tend to get me to gear quickly so I can hold my own against people in the world and be able to quickly participate in new content. I like to be one of the first to see new content and go in without any spoilers. That's why I rush.
  • RexEasilyRexEasily Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    I never rush.i pay to enjoy the game and explore every square inch. Ive been playing FFXIV for 3 years and literally just started the first expansion Heavensward a few weeks ago. I have storm blood and the new shadowbringes pre-ordered.. but i doubt ill be playing Shadowbringers until Fall or next spring. I take the same approach with ESO and every rpg or MMO i play.

    why rush... sit back and enjoy the story. You'll get to end game soon enough.
  • GrinningJackGrinningJack Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    Its an mmorpg XD YES RUSH TO MAX LEVEL u just miss half the game :P
  • JahlonJahlon Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    I think then the "rushing to end game" issue becomes what is the point of the game.

    If the point of the game is something like WoW where the game is literally an endless cycle of get to end level, clear hardest dungeons, farm best gear, wash, rinse, repeat, then yes you have designed a system where people are going to race to end game.

    If the point of the game is like Archeage where supposedly there is good PvP to be had at the end game, then people of course want the best PvP so they rush to get the best gear and the highest level.


    Unless your game has good entertainment value, then no people aren't going to take their time getting there. Personally I think FFXIV and SW:TOR have done the "entertainment" piece very well. I've never felt rushed to get to end game.

    In a game will full cut scenes, I take my time getting through them. Yes, I'd prefer to have other people who want to watch the cut scenes as well, because I enjoy seeing them. IF people want to be in a rush, well they can wait.

    hpsmlCJ.jpg
    Make sure to check out Ashes 101
  • T ElfT Elf Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    I'm a journey type, I want to explore and see it all. To me, if you rush to end game you have missed most of what the world has to offer and the why and how of it all. Those that rush to end game get the gear, clear the dungeon, and rant and rave about not enough content. It drives me crazy as I'm sure it does the developers.
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    Formerly T-Elf

  • WizardTimWizardTim Member, Alpha One, Adventurer, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    IMO the End Game is... the end...

    Once a character stops being able to progress and grow, it's hard for me to be enthusiastic about playing that character. Gear means nothing to me, clearing dungeons never really gave me a thrill. I have more fun in random PUGs leveling than I do in messy complicated raids that some group slapped together out of desperation.

    I don't necessarily take my time, because I enjoy the story content and want to grow as a player and as a character, but at the same time I don't like hitting max level and being bored whenever I log into that character and feel like I have to do chores in the form of dailies. PvP is a potential thing to do but even that gets old and feels cheap when the DEVs have to offer up a carrot in the form of gear and trinkets just to keep me interested.
  • DamoklesDamokles Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    I think you should always take your time to level up. :D
    It is okay to rush of course, but it wont be the same when you go through it all with your alt.
    My first level playthrough is always slow and i go to EVERY corner of the world, find treasure chests, do all the side quests, make notes on how to level more efficiently etc.
    Then I have all the information if i want to boost through the zones, get every treasure chest, know what quests give the most exp and how long each quest will take, I know the ways to the questzones (especially in AoC where we most likely will not have any quest markers like in wow) ;D
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  • AzryilAzryil Member, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    I don't think rushing to end game is on it's own a bad thing. However when a game incentives it by not having any engaging content during the leveling process, that's when there are problems.
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  • MakinojiMakinoji Member, Warrior of Old, Kickstarter, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited April 2019
    Everyone defines the End Game differently just as they define p2w differently.
    I say you find your end game and go for it, whatever it may be.
    My end game will be exploration. However, that won't mean the game ends for me it just means I need to find another goal and reach it.

    As for the subject of rushing, if that's how you want to play then, by all means, do so.
  • mcstackersonmcstackerson Member, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    I don't think rushing through content is a problem as much as having to invest so much time into the game before you can start playing with friends. I have a couple friends who have never been able to join us in MMOs because of the level grind.
  • KarthosKarthos Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Anyone remember the "Fatigue System" from the first run of FF14?

    Yeah we definitely don't want that.

    Why artificially impact how fast a player reaches max level? If someone wants to devote 20hrs a day to bum rush content, then more power to them. It's not the way I'd play, but I'd be salty if i had my play style dictated by them, so why is it okay for me to dictate their's?

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  • EzenkrulEzenkrul Member, Phoenix Initiative, Hero of the People, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    To each their own.
    If someone wants to rush to the endgame then let them. I don' think it is a problem at all just like it is not a problem for those who want to take their time or for those who want to role play.
    For MMOs I feel that a gaming company should plan to fill the needs of a wider audience though and expect a plethora of play styles. "Endgame" content is important as well as the in between.
    Ezenkrul - Phoenix Initiative
    Game for fun, not for life <3
  • VolgaireVolgaire Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    With how Ashes will work it's impossible to do the same kind of end game rush as in other games due to node limitations, it might be different once the servers are properly populated and developed so new player then might have it easier but still not as easy as most games c:
  • DamoklesDamokles Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    I really wonder if defending low level nodes/establishing low level nodes will be harder then defending high level nodes. Depending on that would be the distribution of players in the zones and nodes. (Low level players would either most of the time hang back in bigger nodes and high level players would be pushing the border establishing low level nodes etc, or the exact opposite meaning that low level players would push the boundaries and high level playyers would stay back and try to protect high level nodes, or that all nodes will have quests for all levels :D)
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  • Wandering MistWandering Mist Member, Founder, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited April 2019
    If a player wants to ignore the lore/story and rush straight to end-game, that is entirely their choice. For me personally, I want to enjoy the story but often I get overwhelmed by it, especially by games such as WoW, ESO and FF14 where the game lore is so expansive and in-depth that you can spend years on it and still not fully understand it all. Just as an example, here is a video from a guy who spends pretty much all his time researching WoW lore, and he made a video describing the key events in the WoW history:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQ__nRnO2mE

    As you can see, that alone, without going in many of the details or really explaining the characters is over 40 minutes long. It doesn't help that the way WoW leveling currently is makes the storyline impossible for a new player to follow as the story is out of order and a lot of the main storypoints are contained in the older raids, which most players will never do while leveling.

    FF14 has similar problems. I'm currently working my way through the level 1-50 main story and honestly I'm struggling to keep up with it. There is so much to keep track of that it's hard to differentiate between what is actually important and what is filler. The result is I'm getting burned out by reading so much quest text that I've started skipping over most of it. In a way it's a relief because it means I don't get so bogged down in needless filler, but at the same time there is a nagging feeling in the back of my mind that I have missed a key element of the story by skipping over so much of the quest text.

    The good thing about Ashes is that, unlike WoW, FF14 and ESO, it isn't based on an existing franchise so new players coming in aren't going to have to catch up on the lore. This will make the story-telling a lot easier to follow.

    If IS intends for Ashes to be a more story-driven leveling experience, I hope they will look to GW2 for inspiration. In my opinion it has by far the best leveling experience of any mmorpg I have played, mostly because of how the story is delivered. The story is delivered in easily digestible chunks that are forcibly separated by periods of open world exploring. For anyone who hasn't played it, basically what happens is that every 10 levels you unlock a new chapter in the main story (a story that is personalised for your character based on what race you chose, among other things when you set up your character). These story chapters will generally only give you about 1-2 levels of exp and at the end of the chapter the NPCs will basically say "well done for your good deeds, go now and relax/train to become stronger and we will call you when the time comes".

    This is great because it gives players who like to explore the chance to do so without worrying about missing out on the story, and the story itself has very little filler content, staying focused on what is important to your character.
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  • WololoWololo Member, Phoenix Initiative, Hero of the People, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    i love to rush endgame but dont like reaching it. if that makes sence ? XD
  • Nope. I don't rush to the end. I did raiding for a while in one of my past MMOs before deciding that it wasn't for me (way too much drama and guild politics), but even then I didn't rush to the end. For me an MMO is about the world and the story and exploring everything I can. Frankly I don't care if I ever get to the endgame. I'm perfectly happy playing thru at my own pace. I'm even happier if that pace means the devs are able to add content faster than I can explore it. Granted that doesn't happen in most games (or ever really) but I can dream can't I? :)
  • ShadowCreptShadowCrept Member, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Only Rushing I do is First to Max Level for Bragging Rights.. If their is a normal fully fleshed out quest system than I will rush that as well, gives me more time to do other stuff!
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  • I don't really consider it a problem because quest text is just one type of content. Like all content, some people skip it while others invest time in it.

    That said, I do think there are ways to make quest text more appealing or necessary.
    E.g.
    - don't provide mini-map quest markers and directions; these make text obsolete
    - put hints in text that lead players to secret/more advanced content (quests, crafting, resources, explain game mechanics, etc.)
  • Wandering MistWandering Mist Member, Founder, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    ravudha wrote: »
    I don't really consider it a problem because quest text is just one type of content. Like all content, some people skip it while others invest time in it.

    That said, I do think there are ways to make quest text more appealing or necessary.
    E.g.
    - don't provide mini-map quest markers and directions; these make text obsolete
    - put hints in text that lead players to secret/more advanced content (quests, crafting, resources, explain game mechanics, etc.)

    I agree with the sentiment of getting players to work a bit harder for their quest objectives rather than just putting quest markers on the minimap. However, there are problems with putting too much emphasis on quest text such as language barriers for non-native speakers. If you've ever played an Asian mmorpg that hasn't yet been translated into English you will understand how debilitating it can be, and how important the markers are.
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