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Gear, skill or both...?

Hey guys~! <3 I've really been thinking about this and It's kind of got me worried. I haven't ever played an mmorpg, hecc i hadn't even heard of the genre until ashes besides WoW. The thing I'm worried about is combat.

I'm REALLY hoping that OUTPLAY potential is there, based more on skill rather than purely gear. NOW WAIT! I feel like a lot of people will just instantly disagree, but I have some things I'd like to say before chu heccin kill me >.>

I ONLY THINK THIS SHOULD APPLY WITHIN A RANGE OF 10 LEVELS

What I mean by this, is you will still be able to just mindlessly destroy lower players. If you're level 50 and a level 25 tries to fight you, that's death. There really shouldn't be outplay potential there because they've put a lot less time in. ALTHOUGH THATS TRUE I don't think time should DIRECTLY equal winning. I know it will in some extent and that makes sense, but I really don't think just mindlessly doing stuff and spending every single day on should make you a god. I know some people DO think it should, but for people who have to do stuff and can't no-life the game like me that's a bit unfair.

I would just really like to see skill be more of a part in the combat. I know the combat can be skilled AT THE SAME LEVEL but that limits the encounters of PVP greatly from what I've seen. I feel like a margin of 10 levels would keep you on your toes, and with the systems in place it's not like EVERYONE would want to pvp you.

I'm just super badly hoping for something like this, where within a zone of 10 levels you can directly outplay someone. Possibly by hitting more shots or attacks or dodging if you're using action combat. Or maybe by perfecting rotations if you're strictly using tab targeting style combat.

LET ME KNOW WHAT YOU GUYS THINK

<3<3<3<3<3 Thank you ~ c:
Poko.png

Comments

  • DamoklesDamokles Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited April 2019
    *headpats Pokosaurous*
    I think that outplays will only happen, IF (big if here) it is within 5 levels and your class is in your favour. (Steven said something about a rock-paper-scissors principle with the classes)
    This is sadly the reality of MMORPGs ;D. The strong eat the weak. At least until the stronger faction member turn up to kill you. (I had a friend whose hobby it was to terrorize low level tauren players, he didnt kill them... he killed only all quest npcs ;D)

    The thing with the "hit more shots then the enemy" is that they are still playing around with the combat system! :D Currently they have a total action combat system, but that is only because of APOC. They want to try and implement a mix of action combat and tab targeting in the MMORPG i believe (could be wrong dont crucify me here please xD)
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  • AzryilAzryil Member, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    I think this is the third post on this topic, on the front page.
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  • DamoklesDamokles Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    @arzosah
    Yes, Yes it is.
    roaaztC.gif
  • @arzosah yep I started it all :p Happy to see people take this topic forward. I fully agree with Poko
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  • Rem_Rem_ Member
    Damokles wrote: »
    *headpats Pokosaurous*
    I think that outplays will only happen, IF (big if here) it is within 5 levels and your class is in your favour. (Steven said something about a rock-paper-scissors principle with the classes)
    This is sadly the reality of MMORPGs ;D. The strong eat the weak. At least until the stronger faction member turn up to kill you. (I had a friend whose hobby it was to terrorize low level tauren players, he didnt kill them... he killed only all quest npcs ;D)

    The thing with the "hit more shots then the enemy" is that they are still playing around with the combat system! :D Currently they have a total action combat system, but that is only because of APOC. They want to try and implement a mix of action combat and tab targeting in the MMORPG i believe (could be wrong dont crucify me here please xD)

    *Squeaks with joy* Headpats~! yeah this could be a repeat post but It just is a thing I'd really like to see.

    I don't really feel like they need to have it strictly level = win because they're supposed to be revitalizing the genre and breathing life into it. I'd love to see new takes on combat, instead of level and time = win. I just want there to be a reasonable amount of levels in which people have the ability to lose to someone who is a lower level if they aren't skilled.
    Poko.png
  • Wandering MistWandering Mist Moderator, Member, Founder, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Outplay potential and player skill will always be possible in the game. After all, even if you are using a tab targeting system you still need to decide which buttons to press and when to press them.

    The hard part is deciding just how much outplay potential there is and how much individual player skill matters. I want to be clear though. This is the single hardest thing for any developer to achieve as there are so many factors to consider.

    It's not just a matter of saying "I want x, y and z", snapping your fingers and it magically happening. You have to think about a character's base stats, abilities, damage modifiers, ease of execution, ability to counter, etc. Some developers spend decades trying to balance their game to let skilled player shine, and yet never come close.

    My point is, please don't judge a game too harshly based on the balance, and don't be too disappointed if the game's balance isn't what you expect or wish for.
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  • Rem_Rem_ Member
    Outplay potential and player skill will always be possible in the game. After all, even if you are using a tab targeting system you still need to decide which buttons to press and when to press them.

    The hard part is deciding just how much outplay potential there is and how much individual player skill matters. I want to be clear though. This is the single hardest thing for any developer to achieve as there are so many factors to consider.

    It's not just a matter of saying "I want x, y and z", snapping your fingers and it magically happening. You have to think about a character's base stats, abilities, damage modifiers, ease of execution, ability to counter, etc. Some developers spend decades trying to balance their game to let skilled player shine, and yet never come close.

    My point is, please don't judge a game too harshly based on the balance, and don't be too disappointed if the game's balance isn't what you expect or wish for.

    I'll try, I haven't played MMORPG games before so I guess it could still be fun. Would just be a shame if there wasn't any outplay potential at all, probably because I'm used to games like that. I'd never even heard of MMORPGs to be honest until ashes.

    Two good examples (That probably don't apply to MMORPG games but maybe they do since they're trying to revitalize the genre)

    IN CS:GO you accumulate money by playing rounds, killing players winning rounds etc. The more money you have, the better weapons you can buy which will give you a higher chance of winning.

    BUT If you're just garbage, and have a good weapon someone with maybe only enough to buy a deagle could just 1 tap your head if they're actually good and then you're dead and your money is wasted.

    Another example would be in RUST where you can do almost the same thing, people get gear and guns and stuff but if they're bad at the game you can craft and bow and kill them with that and take their weapons and gear.

    I DEFINITELY am not saying make everyone drop gear and loot on death lol I don't want that. I am saying however I hope there will be some depth showing skill. I know there will be on even levels, seeing who's better but I'd also like for their to be larger opportunities to show off skill. It would be really neat seeing a super skilled level 40 take down a level 45 or 50.

    I just haven't really seen that in mmorpg games and if they'r supposed to be revitalizing the genre I feel like they should bring some fresh stuff into the game like that. From what I've seen combat is always on a = level basis. Since the game is open world I feel like that will be TERRIBLE. You'll just die over and over with no chance to counterplay or anything. I don't feel like being flagged will stop anyone if they can log off and wait it out or something ( I don't think we know much about that but I'd assume they could just leave the game or area with people) and you won't be corrupted instantly right? I think? so that could end badly if there's only a chance to win a fight with someone exactly the same level as you. <3

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  • VolgaireVolgaire Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    I'd love to see skill coming into play rather than out leveling others, it always sucked that you level to max and from there getting the best gear and stuff is basically optional.
  • Rem_Rem_ Member
    Autumnleaf wrote: »
    I'd love to see skill coming into play rather than out leveling others, it always sucked that you level to max and from there getting the best gear and stuff is basically optional.

    YussssssssssssssssssssssSSSSSSSSSS I know obviously better gear should make you stronger, but with all the pvp that's being pushed and stuff I feel like a range of 10 levels is reasonable. being able to outplay someone skillfully within that level range should feel SUPER good.
    Poko.png
  • mcstackersonmcstackerson Member, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Yea, I'd prefer characters to not scale so much that they become unkillable. I'd like it if low level characters can put damage on max level toons, maybe with the exception of a defense focused build. I don't think low levels should stand a chance gets a max toon but if they ban together, it would be nice if 5-10 could have the damage they need to take one down.
  • Rem_Rem_ Member
    Yea, I'd prefer characters to not scale so much that they become unkillable. I'd like it if low level characters can put damage on max level toons, maybe with the exception of a defense focused build. I don't think low levels should stand a chance gets a max toon but if they ban together, it would be nice if 5-10 could have the damage they need to take one down.

    That would be awesome~ I agree if you're lower level it should take that many people to take one down. But I'd also like to see 1v1s be able to happen between a level 40 and 50 and the level 40 win if they really know what they're doing. <3
    Poko.png
  • seaberseaber Member, Intrepid Pack
    Gear will always play a part; I very much doubt many people would play an equalised mmorpg.

    I strongly suspect many people in this thread have seen some mmorpg gameplay and thought something like 'they are just pushing cooldowns' without actually seeing what is happening in the fight.

    The two mmorpgs that I have pvped in extensively are eso and aa. Both have hybrid (tab and 'action') combat, with aa being more towards the 'action' end of the spectrum. Despite gear being extremely important in both, you could still win outnumbered and outgeared by playing more 'skillfully'. I really think y'all need to stop worrying.
    nb I am using 'gear' to mean level, unlocked skills, gear etc
    in this context tab and action are what Steven defined them
    to be on Jahlon's recent interview
    skill means whatever the 'ree tab takes no skill' people think
    counts as skill as well as skills like building your character,
    positioning, knowledge etc
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  • Rem_Rem_ Member
    Seaber wrote: »
    Gear will always play a part; I very much doubt many people would play an equalised mmorpg.

    I strongly suspect many people in this thread have seen some mmorpg gameplay and thought something like 'they are just pushing cooldowns' without actually seeing what is happening in the fight.

    The two mmorpgs that I have pvped in extensively are eso and aa. Both have hybrid (tab and 'action') combat, with aa being more towards the 'action' end of the spectrum. Despite gear being extremely important in both, you could still win outnumbered and outgeared by playing more 'skillfully'. I really think y'all need to stop worrying.
    nb I am using 'gear' to mean level, unlocked skills, gear etc
    in this context tab and action are what Steven defined them
    to be on Jahlon's recent interview
    skill means whatever the 'ree tab takes no skill' people think
    counts as skill as well as skills like building your character,
    positioning, knowledge etc

    I didn't say tab took no skill, I'm just saying adding action combat to the mix instantly means it takes MORE skill than tab targeting. If you have to do the same things, managing cooldowns timing etc but also have to make conscious efforts to move and actually look at who you're fighting, that takes more effort.

    All I'm hoping for is there to be potential to OUTPLAY people, as in I'm level 40 and someone who's level 50 and doesn't know too much but just grinds all the time. If you're playing right and such you should be able to kill them. I HIGHLY doubt the level difference will be that high but I'm just hoping you'll be able to kill multiple people or higher level people if you're skilled enough aka knowing your skills, timing rotations and being able to actually aim at people if you're using the action combat. <3 thanks for commenting
    Poko.png
  • amuriaamuria Member, Intrepid Pack
    Considering a player 10 levels higher than you has already unlocked and improved abilities you might not even have gotten to, I believe it will be a lot harder to outplay this in an mmorpg setting. Depending on how long they want to make the process of levelling the more or less important it becomes since with a fairly fast to medium amount one could focus on the late game for this. Then you wouldn't outplay 10 levels higher but maybe better gear, which I personally am more interested than levels since levels fade sooner or later anyway, while gear can be hard to get in some games.

    They had shown a dodge mechanic which would make it possible to even play well against tab users which usually would hit you most likely.
    I also think that outplay potential comes with your own decisions since you usually can take abilities which will help more with this than others. So, if it is really something you want to do then spec into it.
  • Rem_Rem_ Member
    amuria wrote: »
    Considering a player 10 levels higher than you has already unlocked and improved abilities you might not even have gotten to, I believe it will be a lot harder to outplay this in an mmorpg setting. Depending on how long they want to make the process of levelling the more or less important it becomes since with a fairly fast to medium amount one could focus on the late game for this. Then you wouldn't outplay 10 levels higher but maybe better gear, which I personally am more interested than levels since levels fade sooner or later anyway, while gear can be hard to get in some games.

    They had shown a dodge mechanic which would make it possible to even play well against tab users which usually would hit you most likely.
    I also think that outplay potential comes with your own decisions since you usually can take abilities which will help more with this than others. So, if it is really something you want to do then spec into it.

    Well that's the thing we don't know anything about specs or anything like that. I also haven't ever played an MMORPG but all the outplay talk by me is just coming from RUST and CS:GO where there is TONS of possibilities to show off your individual skill. I'm just hoping all a players skill doesn't come from their gear and level. Obviously some of it will, but I'm hoping a reasonable 5-10 level gap where outplay is possible. Especially since PvP is such a huge focus, and it's going to be everywhere.
    Poko.png
  • seaberseaber Member, Intrepid Pack
    Seaber wrote: »
    Gear will always play a part; I very much doubt many people would play an equalised mmorpg.

    I strongly suspect many people in this thread have seen some mmorpg gameplay and thought something like 'they are just pushing cooldowns' without actually seeing what is happening in the fight.

    The two mmorpgs that I have pvped in extensively are eso and aa. Both have hybrid (tab and 'action') combat, with aa being more towards the 'action' end of the spectrum. Despite gear being extremely important in both, you could still win outnumbered and outgeared by playing more 'skillfully'. I really think y'all need to stop worrying.
    nb I am using 'gear' to mean level, unlocked skills, gear etc
    in this context tab and action are what Steven defined them
    to be on Jahlon's recent interview
    skill means whatever the 'ree tab takes no skill' people think
    counts as skill as well as skills like building your character,
    positioning, knowledge etc

    I didn't say tab took no skill, I'm just saying adding action combat to the mix instantly means it takes MORE skill than tab targeting. If you have to do the same things, managing cooldowns timing etc but also have to make conscious efforts to move and actually look at who you're fighting, that takes more effort.

    All I'm hoping for is there to be potential to OUTPLAY people, as in I'm level 40 and someone who's level 50 and doesn't know too much but just grinds all the time. If you're playing right and such you should be able to kill them. I HIGHLY doubt the level difference will be that high but I'm just hoping you'll be able to kill multiple people or higher level people if you're skilled enough aka knowing your skills, timing rotations and being able to actually aim at people if you're using the action combat. <3 thanks for commenting

    Everyone relevant will be max level after a little while so there's no need to worry about level.

    People tend to ignore times when they win and focus on their losses. And, generally, in mmorpgs the people with better gear are more skilled. So when someone loses to a highly geared person, either due to skill or gear, they blame it on gear.

    Even if gear plays a large part, there will still be plenty of outplay potential in fights. Unless the devs do a complete 180 from all of their past statements.
    Legendary Healer
    Invincible Tank
    Unrivalled Dps
    Queen of Growlgate
    Kraken Tamer
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    H8 me cuz u ain't me
  • Rem_Rem_ Member
    Seaber wrote: »
    Seaber wrote: »
    Gear will always play a part; I very much doubt many people would play an equalised mmorpg.

    I strongly suspect many people in this thread have seen some mmorpg gameplay and thought something like 'they are just pushing cooldowns' without actually seeing what is happening in the fight.

    The two mmorpgs that I have pvped in extensively are eso and aa. Both have hybrid (tab and 'action') combat, with aa being more towards the 'action' end of the spectrum. Despite gear being extremely important in both, you could still win outnumbered and outgeared by playing more 'skillfully'. I really think y'all need to stop worrying.
    nb I am using 'gear' to mean level, unlocked skills, gear etc
    in this context tab and action are what Steven defined them
    to be on Jahlon's recent interview
    skill means whatever the 'ree tab takes no skill' people think
    counts as skill as well as skills like building your character,
    positioning, knowledge etc

    I didn't say tab took no skill, I'm just saying adding action combat to the mix instantly means it takes MORE skill than tab targeting. If you have to do the same things, managing cooldowns timing etc but also have to make conscious efforts to move and actually look at who you're fighting, that takes more effort.

    All I'm hoping for is there to be potential to OUTPLAY people, as in I'm level 40 and someone who's level 50 and doesn't know too much but just grinds all the time. If you're playing right and such you should be able to kill them. I HIGHLY doubt the level difference will be that high but I'm just hoping you'll be able to kill multiple people or higher level people if you're skilled enough aka knowing your skills, timing rotations and being able to actually aim at people if you're using the action combat. <3 thanks for commenting

    Everyone relevant will be max level after a little while so there's no need to worry about level.

    People tend to ignore times when they win and focus on their losses. And, generally, in mmorpgs the people with better gear are more skilled. So when someone loses to a highly geared person, either due to skill or gear, they blame it on gear.

    Even if gear plays a large part, there will still be plenty of outplay potential in fights. Unless the devs do a complete 180 from all of their past statements.

    That's true everyone will get to max level but I thought that was supposed to be a pretty long time~? ^-^ Either way I do agree with you, I was overthinking it a bit since in the end people who will want to fight each other will most likely be max level.
    Poko.png
  • RavudhaRavudha Member
    edited April 2019
    Yeah I'd like 5-10 levels leeway for people's skill to make up for lack of gear.

    I also think we shouldn't diminish the effort and PvE skills players use to get great gear. They should benefit from that gear in PvP.

    That said, I've known people who got the most godly gear in other games but their lack of skill meant they lost a lot in PvP, so I'm not worried about combat at this stage.
  • Rem_Rem_ Member
    ravudha wrote: »
    Yeah I'd like 5-10 levels leeway for people's skill to make up for lack of gear.

    I also think we shouldn't diminish the effort and PvE skills players use to get great gear. They should benefit from that gear in PvP.

    That said, I've known people who got the most godly gear in other games but their lack of skill meant they lost a lot in PvP, so I'm not worried about combat at this stage.

    Of course~! That's what I've been saying, a nice fair balance. I know that's probably extremely hard to achieve but I've been saying, better gear should make you straight up better of course BUT! I don't think that should mean you always win because of it, like it shouldn't make you HUGELY better with just a 1 level difference between you and the person you're fighting c:
    Poko.png
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited April 2019
    10 level gap should be significant enough for "outplay" to be the rule.
    In Ashes, quite a bit of the PvP combat is objective-based rather than hand-to-hand.
    Rock-Paper-Scissors balance will also be a factor.
  • DevorandomDevorandom Member, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Skill should always be important, but if gear does not make you FEEL stronger, then what's the point in going for it.

    If the best gear is hard to earn it should give you a significant power boost. There are plenty of games that do the completely equalized playing field to the best of their ability. But I don't remember the last time I have really felt like a piece of loot was worth the effort to achieve it.
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  • AzryilAzryil Member, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    The nature of games with power progression whether that's level, gear, or both is that there is going to be situations where pure skill isn't going to be the determining factor as to who wins a battle, and I think that's completely ok to a point. Additionally this isn't going to be a game where one on one fights are going to be the focus, in castle/node sieges where there are hundreds of players on both sides the over arching strategy and cooperation between multiple teams will have a much greater impact on the end result of a battle.
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