Vital Combat Mechanic to be Considered - Aesthetic/Kinetic strike momentum

Exciplex

The purpose of this post is to highlight what could be a simple change to dramatically improve the look and feel of swinging weapons and engaging in combat.

Disclaimer:
** I absolutely adore the development of this game thus far. This is just side thoughts. .
** I am not suggesting "For Honor" sluggish mechanics* All comments apply to only the moments the weapon is in motion.


Premise: As seen in the Apocalypse videos on this site, watch closely the movement of toons in melee as they hit other players. Even as they are mid swing, they are able to back and side step at the same exact speed as if not swinging. Since this defies the expected momentum developed from swinging a massive solid object, the freedom of footwork appears visually artificial and otherwise improvable.

Main idea: Swinging a weapon should develop at least a little amount of momentum in the direction of swing scaled to the size of the weapon

Vital Mechanic: Swinging any weapon, especially a very large one, should be a minor 'commitment': While the weapon is being thrust forward and still in motion, especially if the player is stepping forward while swinging, there should 'X' amount of restriction on how fast you can then simultaneously Change direction... Especially if its the opposite direction of the active swing.... Even if these effects are applied for fractions of a second, it would be an objectively pleasing improvement.


Skippable supportive notes:
- If a heavy melee swing and has a subtle restriction to movement during, the player would be more vulnerable for a very brief moment to counter attacks. This would force people to more strategically behave or react in combat.

-If a heavy melee swing from right to left is used. there should be no restriction to side stepping left or forward while in motion (maybe even a subtle increase in speed)

-if a melee swing is used while back peddling, there should be a subtle restriction to back step movement speed while weapon is in motion, Or subtle restriction to damage dealt

- If a heavy attack can be used while changing directions at the same speed as a dagger class doing the same thing, it would feel unjust and look unnatural .


Hope you guys like this idea!

Rem_

I think combat is HEAVILY being changed, I'm PRETTY sure the animations were placeholder. If they aren't that's a bit of a problem >.> but I'm pretty sure they are because everyone just wanted to play APOC.

I agree though the animations felt like they had 0 WEIGHT to them at all, the hits didn't really feel impactful except for the sounds they made.

However I DON'T think they will limit movement with weapons, I think a lot of people would feel that's too restrictive. I do think that they will be getting new animations though, hopefully.

Lyiat

I didn't like how there was basically no impact sounds for ranged weapons. You could get hit three or four times with a wand before you might realize you're getting hit.

Damokles

Lyiat wrote: »

I didn't like how there was basically no impact sounds for ranged weapons. You could get hit three or four times with a wand before you might realize you're getting hit.

It would make sense, not to hear the impact of your shot if it is far enough away from you xD
I mean, an archer doesnt hear his hit from 300m right?

Nagash

Damokles wrote: »

Lyiat wrote: »

I didn't like how there was basically no impact sounds for ranged weapons. You could get hit three or four times with a wand before you might realize you're getting hit.

It would make sense, not to hear the impact of your shot if it is far enough away from you xD
I mean, an archer doesnt hear his hit from 300m right?

well they might hear the screams

Lyiat

Damokles wrote: »

Lyiat wrote: »

I didn't like how there was basically no impact sounds for ranged weapons. You could get hit three or four times with a wand before you might realize you're getting hit.

It would make sense, not to hear the impact of your shot if it is far enough away from you xD
I mean, an archer doesnt hear his hit from 300m right?

I'm not referring to the archer. I'm referring to being the dolt being hit in the back of the head. He doesn't hear the impact, just a red flash that you may possibly miss if you're not paying attention. Needs to be more obvious when someone hits you.

Exciplex

Pokosaurous wrote: »

However I DON'T think they will limit movement with weapons, I think a lot of people would feel that's too restrictive. I do think that they will be getting new animations though, hopefully.

I totally understand what your staying but I'm only referring to movement restrictions that would look and 'feel' objectively natural .

If there is any evasion incentives to side and back stepping unrestricted while swinging the largest weapon in the game, everyone will do it, and it will look and feel strange right?

However, like you said, it's not a very meaningful concern until we see how they polish things up.

BlackBrony

Exciplex wrote: »

Vital Mechanic: Swinging any weapon, especially a very large one, should be a minor 'commitment': While the weapon is being thrust forward and still in motion, especially if the player is stepping forward while swinging, there should 'X' amount of restriction on how fast you can then simultaneously Change direction... Especially if its the opposite direction of the active swing.... Even if these effects are applied for fractions of a second, it would be an objectively pleasing improvement.

It sounds nice in theory, but remember AoC it's not a full ActionCombat game, it's a mix.
Should both type of combat get the same "heavy" restriction?
Also I know where you come from, but I don't really see the benefit honestly, I'm having a hard time thinking how this would benefit and how fun it would be for the players

Exciplex

A light class would have a potential meaningful approach to a heavy class in combat. And a heavy class would have to choose strikes and footwork that is at least subtly different from which a light class would use.

Essentially, just a potential for strategic movement in combat rather than players having incentives to spamming some strange hopscotch movement while swinging weapons.

Even if this means heavy classes plant their leading foot during a strike for 0.1 seconds or something, while a dagger class can freely sidestep during that same movement.

But, as you said, maybe with it being mixed combat it wouldn't make much sense all.

grisu

Yes as people said especially impact needs more weight. I doubt they will keep the same speed and or animations(early stuff and such) in every direction. They just haven't come to implementing strive and backpaddling yet with what the main goals being a bit different.
I do want to throw in one godword tho, magic. Realistic...feeling/percieved combat is a fun idea to twiddle around with if the whole game is based around it, but always keep in mind that this is not a simulation but a powerfantasy.
No questions asked, the current apoc animations have to change, but I am not sure if I would wan't locked frames from just swinging weapons.

ilisfet

An extreme of what you appear to be asking for is Dark Souls' attack animations. They lock the player into a set animation with predetermined movement. The player can only turn up to a fixed degree once the attack starts, all other controls locked.

I agree this helps with making hits look impactful, as without player input the animators can go all in on selling the momentum behind the strike. But it does have gameplay implications. Freely moving while swinging gives a floaty feeling to combat that accentuates the speed of movement. Combat can feel faster and more dance-like with everyone bobbing and weaving as they swing. It is hard to fully sell the weight of a swing like this, but there are merits.

I haven't experienced a free movement type of combat system in a while, so I am more interested in seeing that than the fixed movement type. However, I defer to Intrepid Studios because it's their game.

Wandering Mist

Ilisfet wrote: »

An extreme of what you appear to be asking for is Dark Souls' attack animations. They lock the player into a set animation with predetermined movement. The player can only turn up to a fixed degree once the attack starts, all other controls locked.

I agree this helps with making hits look impactful, as without player input the animators can go all in on selling the momentum behind the strike. But it does have gameplay implications. Freely moving while swinging gives a floaty feeling to combat that accentuates the speed of movement. Combat can feel faster and more dance-like with everyone bobbing and weaving as they swing. It is hard to fully sell the weight of a swing like this, but there are merits.

I haven't experienced a free movement type of combat system in a while, so I am more interested in seeing that than the fixed movement type. However, I defer to Intrepid Studios because it's their game.

It all depends on how the spells and abilities interact with the auto attacks. A lot of games allow you to use certain abilities to cancel auto attack animations. LoL has become famous for such interactions and it completely changes the feel and speed of the combat.

Because of this I am hesitant to judge the current combat system until we see how the class abilities work in it.

There are other things to consider that greatly affect the feel of the combat. Things like a global cooldown for spells, stats that reduce casting time or cooldown, priorities on certain abilities like dodge skills. All of these affect how the combat feels.