Some combination of the two could work. You have a persistent pet (something undead for necros, humanoid elementals for conjurers etc) that a significant portion of your skills work directly through then additional skills (perhaps the ultimate as well) that summon a pet that does something (CC or massive AoE dmg) then disappears right after so it doesn't require further micromanaging or pathing AI.
They had a guardian build in GW2 that was simmilar. You summoned all the ghost weapons you could, and then sacrificed them to use their special ability.
It was only a support build and didnt deal a huge amount of damage, but it was fun to walk around with a floating hammer, sword, bow and shield^^
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AtamaMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I’ve played pet classes in a lot of games. For me the most successful implementations have always been the ones that required the smallest micromanagement. You set things like aggression level, what skills you want them to use, then they do it all on their own once combat starts. You just control your own character, the pet then just has simple “attack”, “stay”, “follow” sorts of commands. That’s what I’d like to see in this game too.
That's all well and good but when dealing with harder content, being able to get your pet to use their abilities at the right moment is very important. If for example the only CC your class has comes from your pet, you need to ensure it uses that CC at the correct time (AI very rare does this).
The very simple solution to that is that you don’t give the pet any abilities that need to be used “at the right moment”. That includes never giving a pet a CC or interrupt. That’s a big part of the whole “no micromanagement” part of my request. Let the summoner have the skills that need strategy. The pet can be a simple, dumb tank/damage dealer/buff bot/whatever. Plenty of games have successfully pulled that off.
You could do that, but then I would argue that the pet is largely pointless outside of RP. For example, let's say you have a pet that deals a certain amount of dps to your target that you had no control over aside from assigning a target. If you got rid of that pet and put all the pet's dps into the player's base abilities, the gameplay would be exactly the same.
Similarly, if you have a pet that passively buffs the party all the time whenever it is in combat, you aren't adding anything to the gameplay.
That’s the case for every class. The only difference between a sword swing and a melee range magic attack is RP. Or an arrow shot compared to a psychic blast. Anything outside of effect and numbers is cosmetic. Your argument is meaningless.
There are aspects that make pet classes fun to me. It can feel like you’re grouping. You can have gameplay variety by summoning different pets that give different situational benefits; a pet that tanks for a tough enemy, a high DPS pet that gets you through content faster, pets with different kinds of buffs. I also like when the pet has its own separate advancement system where it can level up and be assigned different builds on its own. I also like searching for rare/unique pets in the wild to earn and tame.
But that is all thematic/cosmetic/RP. You don’t really need a pet to do any of that. You could have artifact weapons with their own advancement and builds for example (both WoW and LotRO had that). The same way that a mage is the same as a cleric if you let his spells heal. And so what? That’s how MMORPGs work.
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Wandering MistModerator, Member, Founder, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited May 2019
@Atama I fear you are missing my point. Whenever you have separate effects that are entirely passive, that you have no control over nor can act upon, those effects might as well not exist.
This is an example of what I mean. This ability doesn't change your gameplay at all, and the only way you can tell it is activating is by looking at a damage meter.
A pet that you can't control is exactly the same. Take the pet away and your gameplay wouldn't change in the slightest.
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AtamaMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
@Atama I fear you are missing my point. Whenever you have separate effects that are entirely passive, that you have no control over nor can act upon, those effects might as well not exist.
This is an example of what I mean. This ability doesn't change your gameplay at all, and the only way you can tell it is activating is by looking at a damage meter.
A pet that you can't control is exactly the same. Take the pet away and your gameplay wouldn't change in the slightest.
Define "control". Even in my example of a very low-maintenance pet, you still have control over who it attacks, if it attacks, when it attacks, and so on.
Even if you expand what you do with it, for example you have a separate bar of special abilities you have to execute yourself to make the pet do them, the pet is still acting independently of you; running over to the enemy, keeping within range of it, etc. Unless you're actually moving the pet around directly, and in that situation it's not even a pet anymore, the "pet" is your character.
You're making a lot of incorrect assumptions in this thread. For example, you stated that "when dealing with harder content, being able to get your pet to use their abilities at the right moment is very important." Not necessarily. Suggesting that you have "no control" of a pet if it's not doing what you, personally, want a pet to do. I know that you have mentioned the FFXIV summoner in your initial response, is that your only experience with a pet class in an MMO? If that's the case then I understand your misconceptions, but I assure you that if you get an opportunity to play pet classes in other games that there are other ways for them to work.
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VolgaireMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Summons are just meatshields so I cant turn you to ash quicker.
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Wandering MistModerator, Member, Founder, Kickstarter, Alpha One
@Atama I fear you are missing my point. Whenever you have separate effects that are entirely passive, that you have no control over nor can act upon, those effects might as well not exist.
This is an example of what I mean. This ability doesn't change your gameplay at all, and the only way you can tell it is activating is by looking at a damage meter.
A pet that you can't control is exactly the same. Take the pet away and your gameplay wouldn't change in the slightest.
Define "control". Even in my example of a very low-maintenance pet, you still have control over who it attacks, if it attacks, when it attacks, and so on.
Even if you expand what you do with it, for example you have a separate bar of special abilities you have to execute yourself to make the pet do them, the pet is still acting independently of you; running over to the enemy, keeping within range of it, etc. Unless you're actually moving the pet around directly, and in that situation it's not even a pet anymore, the "pet" is your character.
You're making a lot of incorrect assumptions in this thread. For example, you stated that "when dealing with harder content, being able to get your pet to use their abilities at the right moment is very important." Not necessarily. Suggesting that you have "no control" of a pet if it's not doing what you, personally, want a pet to do. I know that you have mentioned the FFXIV summoner in your initial response, is that your only experience with a pet class in an MMO? If that's the case then I understand your misconceptions, but I assure you that if you get an opportunity to play pet classes in other games that there are other ways for them to work.
Hmm, pet classes I have played in other mmorpgs. Let's see. Ranger and Necromancer in the original Guildwars, Necromancer and Mesmer in GW2, Hunter and Warlock in WoW, to name a few. The reason why I mentioned FFXIV pets earlier was as a cautionary tale since it is by far the worst implementation of a pet class that I have encountered in an mmorpg.
Yes there are times where you need to move your pet around directly, for example to avoid it getting hit by aoe attacks. I also fail to see the "incorrect assumption" I am making when it comes to harder content. The WoW Warlock is a perfect example. Their only interrupt ability comes from their felhunter pet, so if you intend to use it the last thing you want is for there to be a delay on the spell causing you to miss the interrupt on a key enemy ability. The Scholar in FFXIV has a similar problem. The only CC it has in its kit is from its pet, and it is very frustrating to use because of the way the AI works, usually resulting in either a delay on the ability or for the ability to not work at all.
I don't know about you but when I press a button for an ability, I expect the ability to activate. This doesn't always happen in FFXIV and sometimes I have to press the same key 3-4 times before it will work.
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lunarskyMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Some combination of the two could work. You have a persistent pet (something undead for necros, humanoid elementals for conjurers etc) that a significant portion of your skills work directly through then additional skills (perhaps the ultimate as well) that summon a pet that does something (CC or massive AoE dmg) then disappears right after so it doesn't require further micromanaging or pathing AI.
They had a guardian build in GW2 that was simmilar. You summoned all the ghost weapons you could, and then sacrificed them to use their special ability.
It was only a support build and didnt deal a huge amount of damage, but it was fun to walk around with a floating hammer, sword, bow and shield^^
I mained a guardian in GW2 and should have thought of them too when I was writing that.
Some combination of the two could work. You have a persistent pet (something undead for necros, humanoid elementals for conjurers etc) that a significant portion of your skills work directly through then additional skills (perhaps the ultimate as well) that summon a pet that does something (CC or massive AoE dmg) then disappears right after so it doesn't require further micromanaging or pathing AI.
They had a guardian build in GW2 that was simmilar. You summoned all the ghost weapons you could, and then sacrificed them to use their special ability.
It was only a support build and didnt deal a huge amount of damage, but it was fun to walk around with a floating hammer, sword, bow and shield^^
I mained a guardian in GW2 and should have thought of them too when I was writing that.
Nah, not many people played that spec and it was only really viable in the very beginnings ;D
It was normal that you didnt remember that (i only did, because i mained a tank/healer guardian in the very beginning )
Why is everyone so fixated on Necromancers and summoning undead? Is it because the Overlord anime caused a hype? I doubt any one character would be able to control a horde of summons unless they're a glass cannon, and even so that is crazy unbalanced. There's nothing wrong with summoning elementals or guards to aid in fights, or even summons from other planes of existence. I don't want to walk around the world and be like "Oh, look another necromancer." while that player is running around with 20 zombies. And with all this hype, it feels like 10%+ of the playerbase is going to be Necromancers.
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NagashMember, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Why is everyone so fixated on Necromancers and summoning undead? Is it because the Overlord anime caused a hype? I doubt any one character would be able to control a horde of summons unless they're a glass cannon, and even so that is crazy unbalanced. There's nothing wrong with summoning elementals or guards to aid in fights, or even summons from other planes of existence. I don't want to walk around the world and be like "Oh, look another necromancer." while that player is running around with 20 zombies. And with all this hype, it feels like 10%+ of the playerbase is going to be Necromancers.
You were expecting overlord, but it was me NAGASH
The dead do not squabble as this land’s rulers do. The dead have no desires, petty jealousies or ambitions. A world of the dead is a world at peace
Anyway, as someone said before, I really hope it isn't like the GW2 Necro summons. Necro is actually my favorite in gw2 and the skills are a lot of fun, but the minions are really a let-down. You have like 5 to pick from and that's it. Every single necro use the same 3 creatures. No customization and all look like weird animals.
Why is everyone so fixated on Necromancers and summoning undead? Is it because the Overlord anime caused a hype? I doubt any one character would be able to control a horde of summons unless they're a glass cannon, and even so that is crazy unbalanced. There's nothing wrong with summoning elementals or guards to aid in fights, or even summons from other planes of existence. I don't want to walk around the world and be like "Oh, look another necromancer." while that player is running around with 20 zombies. And with all this hype, it feels like 10%+ of the playerbase is going to be Necromancers.
Most people dont get inspired to play necromancers from Overlord I'd say, it's just the vocal minority that want to be necromancers. I'd say most people wont be even playing them.
I don't know how to feel about this because I have only seen GW2 and WoW on how pets operate. I can say this however, I feel the summoner's main source of damage should be through their creation/summon rather than them self. In wow both the beastmaster hunter and the demonology warlock use two different forms of companions, beastmasters buff up one pet to do insane levels of damage while demonologists use an army of demons to pump out damage, and I believe both version would be great in this game. The difference is while you can do both those things in WoW the main source of your damage always feels like it is from the player and not the minions, so I would personally love a class where you send off your pet and someone seeing a summoner's minion(s) and think "oh crap better not let that hit me". That being said I wouldn't want all the damage to be centered on the summon to where if in pvp someone either kills or ignores the pet the summoner would die instantly.
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AtamaMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I don't know how to feel about this because I have only seen GW2 and WoW on how pets operate. I can say this however, I feel the summoner's main source of damage should be through their creation/summon rather than them self. In wow both the beastmaster hunter and the demonology warlock use two different forms of companions, beastmasters buff up one pet to do insane levels of damage while demonologists use an army of demons to pump out damage, and I believe both version would be great in this game. The difference is while you can do both those things in WoW the main source of your damage always feels like it is from the player and not the minions, so I would personally love a class where you send off your pet and someone seeing a summoner's minion(s) and think "oh crap better not let that hit me". That being said I wouldn't want all the damage to be centered on the summon to where if in pvp someone either kills or ignores the pet the summoner would die instantly.
Id like to see a necromancer that can summon like 10ish Undead troops from corpses of monster slain with temporary uptime with one permament deathguard type of undead that would be customizable ( my fav one is killing humanoid monsters and choosing to raise them as your deathguard with the boss monsters varied abilitys ), i mean if necromancer are strong that way it can always be balanced by giving them a big downside like... cant be healed by clerics ( have to rely onthemselves with somekind of lifedraining abilities )
Or Like some petclasses from Daoc, Necromancer there summoned one pet and became intagible, like a ghost behind their one pet, and all his abilities were cast through the evolving pet ( the pet just did melee attacks etc and you cast spells that did dmg around your pet and then you had debuffs/curses you could cast on monsters.
Other one was Bonedancer, you could have one big general pet that they controled and 3 others that were controlled by the general but you could choose what they were, you could make them warrior tankers/archers ,healers/buffers or nukers/debuffers
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They had a guardian build in GW2 that was simmilar. You summoned all the ghost weapons you could, and then sacrificed them to use their special ability.
It was only a support build and didnt deal a huge amount of damage, but it was fun to walk around with a floating hammer, sword, bow and shield^^
There are aspects that make pet classes fun to me. It can feel like you’re grouping. You can have gameplay variety by summoning different pets that give different situational benefits; a pet that tanks for a tough enemy, a high DPS pet that gets you through content faster, pets with different kinds of buffs. I also like when the pet has its own separate advancement system where it can level up and be assigned different builds on its own. I also like searching for rare/unique pets in the wild to earn and tame.
But that is all thematic/cosmetic/RP. You don’t really need a pet to do any of that. You could have artifact weapons with their own advancement and builds for example (both WoW and LotRO had that). The same way that a mage is the same as a cleric if you let his spells heal. And so what? That’s how MMORPGs work.
https://www.wowdb.com/spells/266937-gutripper
This is an example of what I mean. This ability doesn't change your gameplay at all, and the only way you can tell it is activating is by looking at a damage meter.
A pet that you can't control is exactly the same. Take the pet away and your gameplay wouldn't change in the slightest.
Even if you expand what you do with it, for example you have a separate bar of special abilities you have to execute yourself to make the pet do them, the pet is still acting independently of you; running over to the enemy, keeping within range of it, etc. Unless you're actually moving the pet around directly, and in that situation it's not even a pet anymore, the "pet" is your character.
You're making a lot of incorrect assumptions in this thread. For example, you stated that "when dealing with harder content, being able to get your pet to use their abilities at the right moment is very important." Not necessarily. Suggesting that you have "no control" of a pet if it's not doing what you, personally, want a pet to do. I know that you have mentioned the FFXIV summoner in your initial response, is that your only experience with a pet class in an MMO? If that's the case then I understand your misconceptions, but I assure you that if you get an opportunity to play pet classes in other games that there are other ways for them to work.
Hmm, pet classes I have played in other mmorpgs. Let's see. Ranger and Necromancer in the original Guildwars, Necromancer and Mesmer in GW2, Hunter and Warlock in WoW, to name a few. The reason why I mentioned FFXIV pets earlier was as a cautionary tale since it is by far the worst implementation of a pet class that I have encountered in an mmorpg.
Yes there are times where you need to move your pet around directly, for example to avoid it getting hit by aoe attacks. I also fail to see the "incorrect assumption" I am making when it comes to harder content. The WoW Warlock is a perfect example. Their only interrupt ability comes from their felhunter pet, so if you intend to use it the last thing you want is for there to be a delay on the spell causing you to miss the interrupt on a key enemy ability. The Scholar in FFXIV has a similar problem. The only CC it has in its kit is from its pet, and it is very frustrating to use because of the way the AI works, usually resulting in either a delay on the ability or for the ability to not work at all.
I don't know about you but when I press a button for an ability, I expect the ability to activate. This doesn't always happen in FFXIV and sometimes I have to press the same key 3-4 times before it will work.
I mained a guardian in GW2 and should have thought of them too when I was writing that.
Nah, not many people played that spec and it was only really viable in the very beginnings ;D
It was normal that you didnt remember that (i only did, because i mained a tank/healer guardian in the very beginning
You were expecting overlord, but it was me NAGASH
Anyway, as someone said before, I really hope it isn't like the GW2 Necro summons. Necro is actually my favorite in gw2 and the skills are a lot of fun, but the minions are really a let-down. You have like 5 to pick from and that's it. Every single necro use the same 3 creatures. No customization and all look like weird animals.
Reading the Overlord novel was the sole reason I got into MMORPGs again. So, yeah.
Most people dont get inspired to play necromancers from Overlord I'd say, it's just the vocal minority that want to be necromancers. I'd say most people wont be even playing them.
I would bet with you that the most played class in AoC will either be the fighter, rogue or mage.
What if it sucks and blows? Even then?
even then ^^
normally summoners are a hybrid class anyway so that's should be easy to do
Do you know what sucks and blows?
LUNGS!
Undead don’t have those.
I do have lungs. I keep them in a jar next to the hearts
They do! Filthy rotten ones, but they are still lungs, and if you dont believe me.... let me show you.
*does a blood eagle on a zombie*
(google it and then you will understand)
Or Like some petclasses from Daoc, Necromancer there summoned one pet and became intagible, like a ghost behind their one pet, and all his abilities were cast through the evolving pet ( the pet just did melee attacks etc and you cast spells that did dmg around your pet and then you had debuffs/curses you could cast on monsters.
Other one was Bonedancer, you could have one big general pet that they controled and 3 others that were controlled by the general but you could choose what they were, you could make them warrior tankers/archers ,healers/buffers or nukers/debuffers