ClassSystem VS FreeBuildSystem

Hexcat

Ok 2 points here:
A) I already know that there will be a class/subclass system in Ashes and that they will not change an entire core characteristic of the game just for this post
And second) I called the the other option "FreeBuildSystem" because I didn't want to sound redundant (I only know that we call them class system and no class system)

So my idea at this is asking the community, if you have ever tried a FreeBuildSystem and if you prefer it over the class system, does it give you more freedom? Is it OP? If you could change that particular thing of AOC would you?

I have tried maybe two games with this system and I have to say that it feel very good to have that level of personalization with you character, it reminds me of those D&D parties where I managed to make my rogue learn some necromancy and became just what I wanted of that first time in Fable where I have the same skill with the bow and the will power, of course having the possibility of 64 different classes in one game is awesome and I can't wait to see the variety of the rogue or the bard, but what do you guys think?

Plateau

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Rem_

Hmmmm I'm not sure if it's really good for a game long-term. If someone can do anything and everything, you just won't really need certain people and it'll take a LOT away from the game. If every single person can go around and do every single thing.

That's why it's cool if say you're a super good... shadow assassin..! and not many people play it, so guilds want to pick you up because you're so good with the class. Hopefully with classes you'll have a choice of at least 2-3 weapons per class but otherwise I definitely wouldn't like something where everyone can do everything. It takes the value out of people when they aren't really needed. With the subclasses and stuff in AoC you can kind of do this, by mixing and matching classes together do get exactly what you gave an example of, a magical rouge. I just dislike the idea a lot of having everyone be able to do everything because then nothing is really special...! Sure people can still get really good with certain things but if everyone can switch on the fly then it just feels a bit weird... it gives you a deeper connection with your character and your choice of class matters a lot more. I know we will be able to change sub classes so that doesn't mean as much but still. thanks for the post

Volgaire

Eh keep it to the classes imo, a free build system just seems too out there for Ashes.

Wandering Mist

When it comes to gameplay customisation options, generally speaking the more options you put into the game, the harder it is to balance. ESO has this problem where some character set-ups are so strong that they are practically unkillable in PvP. FreeBuildSystems typically only give the illusion of choice, because more often than not if you want to be competitive or even viable, you have to choose from a small selection of the strongest setups.

StreetCornerPoet

I think free build systems work really well in single player games where it doesn't matter if you come up with some multi-class over powered combo or find unrelated skills that happen to have synergies in game breaking ways or if you think something is going to work and then find out in ten levels that you can't even beat basic enemies anymore and you have to respec and re-think your character or re-roll something different.

In an MMO free building becomes problematic because if people find really game breaking builds and enough people jump on board then you have to nerf the build and you have a constant battle between players trying to free build unkillable monster classes and devs trying to stop them. Or you frustrate your player base because people find builds that don't work past a certain level and they have to re-spec or re-roll the character constantly as they find progression spaces where one build was op, but now it is crap.

The added issue is that it doesn't give characters rolls or a class identity to progress and attach themselves to. If everyone can tank/dps/heal/control/buff/debuff why bother with raids and dungeons with specific rolls when a mob of players can just mosh pit it with multiple builds doing multiple things.

A balanced approach would be to have classes with several skill trees or selection of abilities where they can have some open choice, but the class is still a cohesive idea and they can build one class for a specific roll but the class itself might be capable of filling 2 or 3 rolls.

So lets say you pick fighter and if you pick skills from one area you focus your class on tanking, but if you go a second route you make your class a dps.

Or lets say you pick a mage and one progression tree has you doing party buffs that you have to keep up and cycle through and another path has you doing debuffs and weakening monsters or slowing them so either way you are a force multiplier for your group, but how you do that changes.

I think with the subclass and morph system where you get morphs not just for subclass, but race, religion, NPC guild affiliations, etc that AoC is doing will offer a lot of choice in this instance within a specific class to help make your character feel different from others running the same primary class.

Damokles

It would be interesting, if we could learn extra abilities (ofc depending on the class) through obtainable skillbooks
Example:
You have your 10 normal spells and abilities at max level, but could pick up other maybe even stronger spells in the world from spellbooks.

The spellbooks would be only obtainable through hard class quests that require you to really challenge yourself, and every time that someone sees you use that spell they know: "Oh damn, he actually did that?"

Jahlon

Lumbermark wrote: »

Ok 2 points here:
A) I already know that there will be a class/subclass system in Ashes and that they will not change an entire core characteristic of the game just for this post
And second) I called the the other option "FreeBuildSystem" because I didn't want to sound redundant (I only know that we call them class system and no class system)

So my idea at this is asking the community, if you have ever tried a FreeBuildSystem and if you prefer it over the class system, does it give you more freedom? Is it OP? If you could change that particular thing of AOC would you?

I have tried maybe two games with this system and I have to say that it feel very good to have that level of personalization with you character, it reminds me of those D&D parties where I managed to make my rogue learn some necromancy and became just what I wanted of that first time in Fable where I have the same skill with the bow and the will power, of course having the possibility of 64 different classes in one game is awesome and I can't wait to see the variety of the rogue or the bard, but what do you guys think?

The problem with a free build system is that you end up with 1 or 2 builds that are the most optimized and become the cookie cutter meta.

Anything else is shunned and ignored.

Ferryman

It depends of the game. In sandbox games the freedom of choise is more needed and usually works pretty good as well. In Ashes we have this very fresh class/sub-class system, which gives us a good amount of possibilities what it comes to choises. So in Ashes I would not like to see changes for the class system itself.

However, if I would need to choose between class or classless system without any context, I think I would go with classless system and total freedom. I like how you are not locked to something specific, especially when you want to try something different and/or change your current role. Also in most games the classes are the same old same old and rarely there are anything new and interesting on the table.

I am so bored of warrior, ranger, rogue, mage, priest class sets, what we can actually see in too many MMOs. Even Ashes has almost this same pattern, they still do it differently and fresh way. So the class combo system saves a lot.

Ferryman

wanderingmist wrote: »

FreeBuildSystems typically only give the illusion of choice, because more often than not if you want to be competitive or even viable, you have to choose from a small selection of the strongest setups.

In Albion Online this works pretty nicely and you can actually see there a lot of variations what it comes for mixing your gear. Balance issues are the same as in any other MMORPGs, but the devs are fixing upcoming balance issues quite fast.

I see FreeBuildSystem this way, that not every possible combination needs to be viable, but if there is a good amount of useable options available, that is enough. Because that freedom of choise is also about possibility to change your build anytime and anywhere to suite for your current starting activity. Or you may change your role without creating a totally new character. You have a good point there for sure, but maybe that is just one part of the whole freedom system.. I hope you understand my point here.

Mushin

Didn't they say that you could learn some abilities on your secondary which you could keep even if you changed your second class, or did I just make that up in my head.

Atama

jahlon wrote: »

Lumbermark wrote: »

Ok 2 points here:
A) I already know that there will be a class/subclass system in Ashes and that they will not change an entire core characteristic of the game just for this post
And second) I called the the other option "FreeBuildSystem" because I didn't want to sound redundant (I only know that we call them class system and no class system)

So my idea at this is asking the community, if you have ever tried a FreeBuildSystem and if you prefer it over the class system, does it give you more freedom? Is it OP? If you could change that particular thing of AOC would you?

I have tried maybe two games with this system and I have to say that it feel very good to have that level of personalization with you character, it reminds me of those D&D parties where I managed to make my rogue learn some necromancy and became just what I wanted of that first time in Fable where I have the same skill with the bow and the will power, of course having the possibility of 64 different classes in one game is awesome and I can't wait to see the variety of the rogue or the bard, but what do you guys think?

The problem with a free build system is that you end up with 1 or 2 builds that are the most optimized and become the cookie cutter meta.

Anything else is shunned and ignored.

You said exactly what I was going to say.

Systems that let you make anything you want end up having everyone make the best thing.

Dividing characters into classes with unique benefits will lead to greater variety, because the least-popular classes end up being in greater demand. If for some reason 60% play DPS, and 30% play tanks, those 10% healers will be pretty popular. And that leads people to make more healers until they aren’t as rare anymore.

Dygz

In single-player games, free-build can be fun. Though even in my favorite single-player MMORPG - KOA: Reckoning- what I loved most was that I truly felt like the epitome of a Rogue.

I like knowing what my role is and easily understanding the roles of other players.
I don't necessarily want people to be stuck with only one class, though.
Multi-classing can be tons of fun, so...
The Ashes paradigm of primary archetype augmented by secondary archetype sounds great.

People will try to force others into cookie-cutter builds in any case.

Damokles

dygz wrote: »

I like knowing what my role is and easily understanding the roles of other players.

I think that you wont like my tank/melee support bard with a polearm then

Dygz

That's still a tank augmented by other stuff.

Ferryman

Atama wrote: »

jahlon wrote: »

Lumbermark wrote: »

Ok 2 points here:
A) I already know that there will be a class/subclass system in Ashes and that they will not change an entire core characteristic of the game just for this post
And second) I called the the other option "FreeBuildSystem" because I didn't want to sound redundant (I only know that we call them class system and no class system)

So my idea at this is asking the community, if you have ever tried a FreeBuildSystem and if you prefer it over the class system, does it give you more freedom? Is it OP? If you could change that particular thing of AOC would you?

I have tried maybe two games with this system and I have to say that it feel very good to have that level of personalization with you character, it reminds me of those D&D parties where I managed to make my rogue learn some necromancy and became just what I wanted of that first time in Fable where I have the same skill with the bow and the will power, of course having the possibility of 64 different classes in one game is awesome and I can't wait to see the variety of the rogue or the bard, but what do you guys think?

The problem with a free build system is that you end up with 1 or 2 builds that are the most optimized and become the cookie cutter meta.

Anything else is shunned and ignored.

You said exactly what I was going to say.

Systems that let you make anything you want end up having everyone make the best thing.

Dividing characters into classes with unique benefits will lead to greater variety, because the least-popular classes end up being in greater demand. If for some reason 60% play DPS, and 30% play tanks, those 10% healers will be pretty popular. And that leads people to make more healers until they aren’t as rare anymore.

This is not just problem of free build systems. Its the same problem with class locked systems as well. People will reroll archtypes and sub-classes if they goal to maximise the benefits. So you do not need free build system for that.

OrcLuck

I doubt the system is going to change. I value the class system, it gives you some ability to replay the game in a unique way.