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Phase I of Alpha Two testing will occur on weekends. Each weekend is scheduled to start on Fridays at 10 AM PT and end on Sundays at 10 PM PT. Find out more here.
Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest Alpha Two news and update notes.
Our quickest Alpha Two updates are in Discord. Testers with Alpha Two access can chat in Alpha Two channels by connecting your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
ClassSystem VS FreeBuildSystem
Hexcat
Member
Ok 2 points here:
A) I already know that there will be a class/subclass system in Ashes and that they will not change an entire core characteristic of the game just for this post
And second) I called the the other option "FreeBuildSystem" because I didn't want to sound redundant (I only know that we call them class system and no class system)
So my idea at this is asking the community, if you have ever tried a FreeBuildSystem and if you prefer it over the class system, does it give you more freedom? Is it OP? If you could change that particular thing of AOC would you?
I have tried maybe two games with this system and I have to say that it feel very good to have that level of personalization with you character, it reminds me of those D&D parties where I managed to make my rogue learn some necromancy and became just what I wanted of that first time in Fable where I have the same skill with the bow and the will power, of course having the possibility of 64 different classes in one game is awesome and I can't wait to see the variety of the rogue or the bard, but what do you guys think?
A) I already know that there will be a class/subclass system in Ashes and that they will not change an entire core characteristic of the game just for this post
And second) I called the the other option "FreeBuildSystem" because I didn't want to sound redundant (I only know that we call them class system and no class system)
So my idea at this is asking the community, if you have ever tried a FreeBuildSystem and if you prefer it over the class system, does it give you more freedom? Is it OP? If you could change that particular thing of AOC would you?
I have tried maybe two games with this system and I have to say that it feel very good to have that level of personalization with you character, it reminds me of those D&D parties where I managed to make my rogue learn some necromancy and became just what I wanted of that first time in Fable where I have the same skill with the bow and the will power, of course having the possibility of 64 different classes in one game is awesome and I can't wait to see the variety of the rogue or the bard, but what do you guys think?
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Comments
That's why it's cool if say you're a super good... shadow assassin..! and not many people play it, so guilds want to pick you up because you're so good with the class. Hopefully with classes you'll have a choice of at least 2-3 weapons per class but otherwise I definitely wouldn't like something where everyone can do everything. It takes the value out of people when they aren't really needed. With the subclasses and stuff in AoC you can kind of do this, by mixing and matching classes together do get exactly what you gave an example of, a magical rouge. I just dislike the idea a lot of having everyone be able to do everything because then nothing is really special...! Sure people can still get really good with certain things but if everyone can switch on the fly then it just feels a bit weird... it gives you a deeper connection with your character and your choice of class matters a lot more. I know we will be able to change sub classes so that doesn't mean as much but still.
In an MMO free building becomes problematic because if people find really game breaking builds and enough people jump on board then you have to nerf the build and you have a constant battle between players trying to free build unkillable monster classes and devs trying to stop them. Or you frustrate your player base because people find builds that don't work past a certain level and they have to re-spec or re-roll the character constantly as they find progression spaces where one build was op, but now it is crap.
The added issue is that it doesn't give characters rolls or a class identity to progress and attach themselves to. If everyone can tank/dps/heal/control/buff/debuff why bother with raids and dungeons with specific rolls when a mob of players can just mosh pit it with multiple builds doing multiple things.
A balanced approach would be to have classes with several skill trees or selection of abilities where they can have some open choice, but the class is still a cohesive idea and they can build one class for a specific roll but the class itself might be capable of filling 2 or 3 rolls.
So lets say you pick fighter and if you pick skills from one area you focus your class on tanking, but if you go a second route you make your class a dps.
Or lets say you pick a mage and one progression tree has you doing party buffs that you have to keep up and cycle through and another path has you doing debuffs and weakening monsters or slowing them so either way you are a force multiplier for your group, but how you do that changes.
I think with the subclass and morph system where you get morphs not just for subclass, but race, religion, NPC guild affiliations, etc that AoC is doing will offer a lot of choice in this instance within a specific class to help make your character feel different from others running the same primary class.
Example:
You have your 10 normal spells and abilities at max level, but could pick up other maybe even stronger spells in the world from spellbooks.
The spellbooks would be only obtainable through hard class quests that require you to really challenge yourself, and every time that someone sees you use that spell they know: "Oh damn, he actually did that?"
The problem with a free build system is that you end up with 1 or 2 builds that are the most optimized and become the cookie cutter meta.
Anything else is shunned and ignored.
However, if I would need to choose between class or classless system without any context, I think I would go with classless system and total freedom. I like how you are not locked to something specific, especially when you want to try something different and/or change your current role. Also in most games the classes are the same old same old and rarely there are anything new and interesting on the table.
I am so bored of warrior, ranger, rogue, mage, priest class sets, what we can actually see in too many MMOs. Even Ashes has almost this same pattern, they still do it differently and fresh way. So the class combo system saves a lot.
In Albion Online this works pretty nicely and you can actually see there a lot of variations what it comes for mixing your gear. Balance issues are the same as in any other MMORPGs, but the devs are fixing upcoming balance issues quite fast.
I see FreeBuildSystem this way, that not every possible combination needs to be viable, but if there is a good amount of useable options available, that is enough. Because that freedom of choise is also about possibility to change your build anytime and anywhere to suite for your current starting activity. Or you may change your role without creating a totally new character. You have a good point there for sure, but maybe that is just one part of the whole freedom system.. I hope you understand my point here.
You said exactly what I was going to say.
Systems that let you make anything you want end up having everyone make the best thing.
Dividing characters into classes with unique benefits will lead to greater variety, because the least-popular classes end up being in greater demand. If for some reason 60% play DPS, and 30% play tanks, those 10% healers will be pretty popular. And that leads people to make more healers until they aren’t as rare anymore.
I like knowing what my role is and easily understanding the roles of other players.
I don't necessarily want people to be stuck with only one class, though.
Multi-classing can be tons of fun, so...
The Ashes paradigm of primary archetype augmented by secondary archetype sounds great.
People will try to force others into cookie-cutter builds in any case.
I think that you wont like my tank/melee support bard with a polearm then
This is not just problem of free build systems. Its the same problem with class locked systems as well. People will reroll archtypes and sub-classes if they goal to maximise the benefits. So you do not need free build system for that.