Dodge animations - what make it feel wierd?

Hi what dodge mechanics make You feel unconfortable on games that are currently played? I personally think full plate warrior with shield rolling on battlefield is hilauorus. I would love to see different dodge animations based on equipment oraz class od my hero. What is your opinion?

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Damokles

I would say that different armour types, should require different stamina usage in dodging.
Heavy takes a huge amount of stamina.
Medium is normal stamina usage.
Light uses less stamina.

Rem_

As @damokles said that would be an easy solution, but since they're bringing life back to the MMORPG genre they could do more with this, obviously it's no priority or anything but it would be nice to see. Maybe you just simply can't dodge a huge amount when you're in super heavy armor as it doesn't make much sense, but than again a lot of stuff in games doesn't >.>

Jjampong

Although it's less realistic, I hope you'll be able to dodge while charging a skill or in the middle of an attack. It makes the combat a lot more exciting because you're always trying to get that last hit in instead of waiting for the enemy to attack.

georgeblack

I agree with the scepticism. It would require further discussion.
Not sure if now is the time or later on, but I hope that the developers would put on some restrictions.

syl

Rolling with your 100kg plate armor would be weird, so maybe they could make something like 'dashing' in a direction. That dash would require more stamina the heavier your are.

Wandering Mist

Pokosaurous wrote: »

As @damokles said that would be an easy solution, but since they're bringing life back to the MMORPG genre they could do more with this, obviously it's no priority or anything but it would be nice to see. Maybe you just simply can't dodge a huge amount when you're in super heavy armor as it doesn't make much sense, but than again a lot of stuff in games doesn't >.>

That's all well and good but we need to consider balance as well. Melee fighters are already at a huge disadvantage against ranged fighters as a matter of cause, and reducing their ability to dodge ranged attacks would further increase this imbalance.

If you were to do this, you would need to give plate-wearing classes either a lower cooldown on their charge/gap-closing abilities (which would invalidate the "realism" reason of the reduced dodge) or give them more CC to be able to stick to their target. Now, I've played PvP where melee classes could stun-lock a target for 10 seconds or more, and it is not fun.

So yes, having a plate-wearer able to dodge the same amount as a cloth-wearer sounds ridiculous, but this is generally what needs to happen if we want the game to be somewhat balanced. Now I know what you will probably say, that someone wearing heavy armour will be able to take more hits than someone wearing light armour, and yes you are right. But that means nothing if the heavy armour user can't close the gap with their target. It leaves zero counterplay for the heavy armour user and they just turn into a moving target for any ranged attacker.

Going back to the OP, I'm perfectly fine with heavy armour users having different dodge animations to light armour users, but the function and ability of the dodge should be the same across the board. Also when it comes to animations, one thing I always find weird is the fact that sometimes, weapons your character is holding simply disappear during the dodge animation. I hope they consider what the weapon does during the animation, particularly for bigger weapons like spears, etc.

Damokles

@wanderingmist
You forgot to think about the passive extra percentage of hp that heavy armour wielders get at the rank 3 passive.
Different armour, different attributes. Heavy armiur automatically already gives the wearer way mor hp than any other type.

Wandering Mist

damokles wrote: »

@wanderingmist
You forgot to think about the passive extra percentage of hp that heavy armour wielders get at the rank 3 passive.
Different armour, different attributes. Heavy armiur automatically already gives the wearer way mor hp than any other type.

Yes and that extra health is meaningless if the heavy armour user can never close the gap with their target. So it takes a few more hits to kill them, big woop, they are still useless against a ranged attacker.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=44Wym9rjva4

It doesn't matter how much health a target has if you can kite them indefinitely.

amuria

I don't think hp/armour is of equal value to having less dodges. With a dodge the player can avoided the damage completely (usually is that way at least), so the taken damage will always be 0. "Tanking" the hit is always less desirable than using the dodge especially for hard hitting attacks.
Different armour classes also give boosts in performance so if this boost isn't calculated with the additional dodge rolls in mind than you not only made heavy armour worse do to damage mitigation value but also by being much worse in overall value performance.

Spinning the thought of realism to dodges further you could also start arguing that classes which are not usually used to heavy physical movement would have less dodges, this would include mages for example.

Dodges are very powerful, and I would rather see armour classes balanced with something else than increase or decrease of dodges. Realism in games is a nice to have but I rather have balanced gameplay.

[Deleted User]

It requires a huge willing suspension of disbelief to believe that anyone in full plate armor could do much more than stand relatively still and wave their hands about anyway.

Sorry, but if you're talking about bringing realism into it, then, why not go the whole hog?

And now I've got Blackadder in my head...

"Sir it's artistic licence. It's willing suspension of disbelief"
"Well, I'm not having anyone staring in disbelief at MY willy suspension!"

-Curtis/Elton/Atkinson

Wandering Mist

megs wrote: »

It requires a huge willing suspension of disbelief to believe that anyone in full plate armor could do much more than stand relatively still and wave their hands about anyway.

Sorry, but if you're talking about bringing realism into it, then, why not go the whole hog?

And now I've got Blackadder in my head...

"Sir it's artistic licence. It's willing suspension of disbelief"
"Well, I'm not having anyone staring in disbelief at MY willy suspension!"

-Curtis/Elton/Atkinson

Indeed. I always find it amusing whenever anyone brings up the "realism" argument in a fantasy game. In a world where characters can use magic to change the the very contours of the land and bring people make from the dead, and there are dragons flying around above your head, are you really that worried about being able to roll in heavy armour?

amuria

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pAzI1UvlQqw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qzTwBQniLSc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-bnM5SuQkI

I thought these might help this discussion.

seaber

Dodge roll is a terrible mechanic to have in a game if the goal is to have strategic combat.

StreetCornerPoet

amuria wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pAzI1UvlQqw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qzTwBQniLSc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-bnM5SuQkI

I thought these might help this discussion.

Pretty much this. Also someone in heavy armor with a shield would be pretty resistant to most damage types so any weapon that wasn't specifically made to pierce armor or wasn't a bludgeoning weapon wouldn't work. Also with the padding underneath their armor they would be resistant to a lot of spell damage.

So if you want realism in heavy armor they should not only be able to move and dodge, but also be pretty protected and take very little damage if not be flat out immune to swords, daggers (outside of lucky "crits" to simulate getting through the joints), and many other weapons, while also being able to parry or shield block those weapons that could cause a problem.

Bringing in magic they would be resistant to many spell damage types as well even fire and ice due to the insulation of the leather that was worn normally under the armor.

Meanwhile that mage in cloth armor should be taking full damage with no mitigation outside of any protective spells. No armor class, no protection, either that mage has to dodge everything while trying to find the time to cast or take the full hit.

Also we should take away the idea of armor class and create a damage mitigation spread sheet for different armor types and you get rising damage mitigation for each type of weapon and spell damage type for heavier armors.

Or we could simplify things and keep armor class and allow everyone to dodge.

Wandering Mist

@amuria I've only watched the first video so far but I find it interesting that a modern soldier carries more weight on them than a medieval knight. Of course, that is without carrying a weapon, which can make a huge difference especially when it comes to rolling. The current standard weapon for the US military is the M4 Carbine which has a loaded weight of 7.49lb. The weight of a standard shield according to this website: http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/cariadoc/shield_and_weapon_weights.html is around 8lb, plus whatever offensive weapon you are carrying. I think that would be the defining factor on whether you could roll in real life, not the armour you are wearing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B9TJI3gmzI0

Doing a roll such as this, even with a very light sword and shield, you are very likely to either stab yourself or the ground with your sword as you roll. And that's just for rolling forwards in a straight line. Rolling backwards without using your hands to push off the ground is much much harder (I don't think you could with a normal weapon) and rolling sideways is also going to be largely impossible without getting the weapon caught on something.

EDIT: This is the only video I've found so far of a guy doing a combat roll holding a weapon.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t0RiVqD8t04

You'll notice that the guy holds the weapon in 1 hand during the roll and uses his other hand to control the roll. In the case of the backward roll, the free hand is required to provide enough power and rotation to get round the entire way (otherwise he would just land on his back and turtle).

amuria

@wanderingmist I shared the 3 videos I found because I wanted to show that movement in plate armour seems to be very possible. I'm also guessing that modern military gear is heavier than medieval armour because a soldier also carries supplies ammo additional tools. At least from the bags he has I would guess that is what he has with him. While in this example the knight just carries his armour and no supplies.

If you are in full plate, I would guess you would not really need a shield but yes if you have both your hands used up rolling would become very difficult. Personally, I doubt anyone is rolling a lot in any battle at least not combat rolling, but as it is a very dynamic game mechanic it makes sense in gameplay.

[Deleted User]

<- Admits to having formed prejudiced ideas about movement in full plate armor.
<- Would blame Hollywood but even though they tend to depict full scale as immobile, still has to admit to accepting drama as fact. Derp

@amuria These are fabulous videos! @wanderingmist Same!

Thankyou both!

T Elf

Am I the only one who hates dodging in MMOs? I hate it as much as jumping out of circles on the ground. I'm terrible at action-y mechanics which is one of the reasons I like more classic MMOs.

Blackhearted

Dodge feeling weird on heavy armor classes could be avoided by having heavy armor designs not being extremely bulky but just fitting plate armor and shield.
IRL using extremely bulky armor would be only for ****. Plate armor has always aimed on keeping the wearer mobile.

syl

@amuria I did not know heavy armor could be so mobile, guess you'll learn something everyday

It's one of those things you presume without actually have seen it in action.

Looking at it with this new perspective, rolling in heavy armor wouldn't be impossible. Though I still stand with my opinion to have stamina consumption linked to your current carried weight.

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