Dev Discussion #3 - Group Gameplay



  • WololoWololo Member, Leader of Men
    I hope it will be relatively easy to get in a group and there wont be elitism for raids where you have to instal a dps meter and get 30k/minute or whatever to be accepted. Being a solo player, the 'fun' i get from group play is mostly RPing, standing in town chatting dancing, mount parade or other sort of community made event.
  • arikatysarikatys Member
    edited May 2019
    Hey guys!
    So to make the things clear I am playing League of Legends in high master/ chall right now. My best MMORPG experience was with two grinding games BlackDesertOnline and 4Story in which I stood with super good gears. However, since I want to get back into playing MMORPG or atleast try it out once more. I feel like I should try to join your "Group gameplay" conversation.
    1) Competitive group - I feel like every game nowadays should at least try to get a bit of "Competitive touch". I think there are these points to get the best competitive content:
    a) It has to be easy (even new players should not find it hard to kill someone or accomplish tasks)
    b) It has to be repetitive, but not the same every time
    c) Game should be changing (adding content, balancing, changing graphics, bug fixes..)
    My first competitive experience was in 4Story. Guilds had 4 territories to conquer or to defend (if they conquered it before) for every map(country). Every territory had 2 gates, if the gate got destroyed the guardian would spawn inside the territory then the guild who dealt the most damage to the guardian would obtain it. Guilds were getting competitive points for defending or conquering them. At the end of the week there would be "Castle conquering" for every map(country). There would be fight between the guild that obtained the castle last time and the guild that obtained the most points in the given week.
    This thing overall was super fun to me and kept me playing and my friends for super long time. I remember super huge raids of people raiding the maps and conquering or defending everything. It was really good experience and even new players were engaged(checking whether there are any raids around the map, dangers, watching the gates when the main groups were fighting somewhere else. which I liked the most. There are not many mmorpgs that can engage new players in any type of high end content.
    2) Groups or Solo - I think in every good game should be possible to be able to solo anything. However, it has to be after long time spent into the game. I mean I always loved when some type of high end player just went into dungeon or group and just soloed it. It always kept me going. I felt like it was the best achievement to obtain. It was super good thing. (even in LeagueOfLegends, people strive to be able to go 1v9 It's just THE BEST EXPERIENCE u can be able to get.). In my opinion group contents are really good. However, there will be people that dislike/ hate playing with the others and they will just do anything to get better enough to solo. And I love those people. However, I somehow felt like these players were the pillars of the healthy community.
    Those are my main points.
    something out of context
    3) Black/ shady market - I was always wondering why EVERY game is trying to get rid of the "black market" instead of implementing it into the game itself. I remember Diablo III auction and it was like super magnet for players or even steam skins trading even though people made it look super gamble like It was really successful. Even in the LeagueOfLegends there are so many boosting sites It's actually business for many high end people. People will say that it's p2w, but it's really just you avoiding shady websites and so on. Just make the way for people to buy something for irl cash currency in a state that u will gain few percentages from the transaction and it will be win win. But it's probably really hard to implement such economy well since it takes a lot of time and dedication or even some people to watch over it while the game is running.
    I know many people will this find hard to believe that someone actually likes these aspects of the game, but well I am kinda different.
  • iliyailiya Member
    As a grouped player in PvP, I want a lot of compositions being viable for winning rather than just having 2-3 specific compositions being viable for actually winning while the rest are low tiers with a low chance of winning.

    Overwatch had this problem for a long time. There were a lot of healers and tanks you could choose and play. But the truth is if you wanted to actually wanted to win you had to have a Reinhart and Mercy as the tank and healer. Having other healers or tanks instead of those would mean your team was significantly disadvantaged.

    WoW had the same problem for a long time too in Arena for 3v3s. There were many possible compositions but the truth was only like 4-5 were actually viable for winning.

    I know its hard to get it right the first time so please have constant patches improving the balance of the game. Weekly and detailed updates mean keeping your audience as Fornite does, 2-3 month mediocre updates like Apex means stagnating meta and loss of Audience. Don't be afraid to change things that are not working.
  • WololoWololo Member, Leader of Men
    @arikatys You make some very good points here, however i dont agree on nr3.
    Even if you regulate the black market it is still P2W and ppl with big credit cards will still buy theyr way up. Imo the only way to fully prevent P2W is taking a hard stance against it from the start aswell as fighting bots. I feel it will still be possible to buy gold with irl money in AoC tho, but only in very small amounts and for a high price since sellers have to buy a sub and cant bot.
  • yeoldesmithyeoldesmith Member, Founder
    Well yeah.. it's better. :P
    Something need doing?

  • AmistAmist Member, Braver of Worlds
    I actually really enjoy meeting people in-game. It's always fun to play with your already formed group of friends, but finding people with common interests whilst playing is always fun
  • TalentsTalents Member
    Grouped gameplay is obviously extremely important in MMORPGs, especially for activities such as raids (both PvE and PvP) and dungeons, however, there needs to be room for solo play if wanted as well. One of the most enjoyable parts of MMORPGs for me is to just go out into the world, and kill mobs for the chance of a rare drop, gather mats, and just explore areas. Especially in new MMORPGs, one of the best feelings is finding new areas that aren't too well known yet, and finding amazing opportunities for grinding/farming.
  • Grouping is a core part of MMORPGs in how you meet people and tackle content too challenging for just one person. I like classes to have defined roles so that all members in the group are reliant on one another (i.e. you have value) as opposed to everyone being able to do everything (you are 100% replaceable and therefore your value is very low). I like there to be a significant amount of group content available for players. I also like relatively large group sizes (6-8) rather than the small group sizes some recent/modern games go with.
  • TawneyTawney Member
    I love to be able to play with friends, do dungeons, pvp, sea stuff, explore, except quests. I like to take time to read the quest, watch the cutscenes but my friends dont, so this part Id rather to do alone.
    Stuff for groups with 2-10 players are nice, its easier to comunicate, lead and to find players. Guild content are nice too, if possible. For larger groups there should be minor or no gear requeriment, or we will wait for days until find someone.
    And last, some people are too shy or nobody likes then, so they want to play alone, should be a way, harder or with less rewards, whatever.
  • hulkmasterhulkmaster Member, Pioneer
    I think i had different kinds of group experience


    Open world non-organised experience
    Best experience i had yet - Guild Wars 2 - open world events pretty (that really important) intuitevly tell you how your non-organised group should cooperate, in order to complete event

    Example: GW2 Any event | Dragons Stand map | Auric Basin map:
    any event:
    for example there is an elite mob with some easy tactic like: croud control when it is channeling, avoid big red circles in order to win, use combat system for your adventage

    Dragons Stand:
    There are 3 ways through whole map, all players should divide into 3 large groups (20+ players) and clean each way in several steps, each step takes certain ammount of time, and players should clean its own way and help other ways
    In the end all ways unite and player face legendary epic boss

    Auric Basic:
    4 Sides of city have unique boss with unique mechanics, all players should kill all 4 bosses simultaneously, or they will restore 1\3 of their HP

    Group experience (5-8ppl):
    I don't think i had plenty of really good group experience: best of it was in WoW in hardcore 5ppl dungeons, and still i don't think that was best experience

    Raid experience (10+ppl):
    Best organised group experience i've had - its really awesome to cooperate in hardcore manner with other people

    i don't have really cool PvP experience (l2 included)
  • I find that now a group of friends or guildies communicating through a voice-chat system is almost essential for having fun, otherwise a lot of players just keep to their own acquaintances or friend groups since they'll trust them more for dungeon runs and raids.

    Talking to others' while playing is fun as well, it makes me feel like I am in more of an active community.
  • AngelcryAngelcry Member, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty
    Outside of the usual grouping for raids, dungeons, and pvp, I can think of a couple instances that have made grouping more satisfying in the mmos I've played.

    1. I want to be able to do the main story quests as a group. So many times I've loaded into a fresh mmo with a friend, and it's ages before there's actually a reason or way to play together meaningfully. It becomes a single player RPG until I hit level cap. Being able to experience the main quest together creates a co-op environment instantly and it's much more enjoyable right from the get-go.

    2. Some of the most fun I've had with groups have been when knowledgeable veterans step up and lead something unique in the open world. For example, Maybe someone knows the most efficient farming route for certain resource nodes, and they lead a train of people to gather those items daily. Or someone knows the timing of particular elite mob spawns, and they help players get those kills. In some games I've played guilds specialized in killing a particular world boss every day, and they would help players coordinate what needed to happen over voice for the community. Making things like this easier for these individuals would be awesome. A clean group UI with leadership identifiers, markers in the world only visible to the group, easy location sharing in chat, and extra visible ways for leaders to communicate with their squad would all be great. Essentially extending the raiding functionality into the open world for creative player use.
  • kesarakkkesarakk Member, Warrior of Old
    Majority of my group (Friends and Family) enjoy exploration, fighting, and gathering. We spend hours in different games looking through all the cracks and hidden secrets it has to offer. What I would really enjoy seeing is open world dungeons with multiple levels in it with complex pathing. While it may be easy to get lost, there is also the chance you will come across something new and different.

    One example that always excites me:
    A group is traversing an ancient dwarf hold that has been abandoned. The walls are cracked and the floors caked in dust. There are many treasures behind its numerous doors, but there are also creatures of another time inside. As the group moves through the hold they not only find materials needed to continue their individual and group progressions, but they also stumble on ancient secrets.
    A door opens to an unmarked room. There is nothing inside, save a balcony on two sides. Once the group enters the room a ritual is triggered and an ancient evil is brought forth. This is no mere monster that can be muscled into submission. This evil is beyond any hero in all the realms. The group must learn its attack patterns and adjust their strategy. Time will be against them if they fail because soon word will spread about the ritual challenge and more will come to try their hand at the fell beast.
    What happens when such a beast is vanquished? Will the fallen king's treasure be revealed? Will another path open that goes to deeper and darker holes? Perhaps this beast is but the gatekeeper for something far more sinister.

    These are the kind of things I would love to see in Ashes. If the dungeons follow the same system as the nodes, then when a new one is unlocked it would be unique to not only that area, but unique to the server as well. It's just speculation, but I can't wait to see what is hidden for players to find!
  • xilodonxilodon Member
    Raid/dungeon grouping is pretty well established in MMOs and I don't expect it'll be much different in AoC. The game's most challenging and lucrative PvE content should require a level of deliberate coordination in order to feel meaningful. I've always been of the mind that the introduction of LFR near the end of Cataclysm was the start of WoW's downfall because automatic raid groups took away a huge chunk of the magic of feeling special for seeing the last boss in a raid, and cheapened the accomplishment for those who went through the motions in higher difficulties. I was never upset that I never got to see the Illidan or Kil'Jaeden fights up close during BC, because that little bit of exclusivity added a layer of mystique to the bosses themselves and the guilds who could beat them.

    As far as the more casual aspects of the game, I've always preferred systems where regular questing/grinding can be done as a small group without losing efficiency, but doesn't explicitly require actually joining a stranger's party in order to magically be entitled to credit for for kills. So for the day to day mob grinding, getting first tag or last hit shouldn't lock people out of kill credit in busy areas unless it's some kind of special mob that somehow warrants a competitive questing mindset (like in pvp focused areas). With the cooperative mindset around nodes (ie we're all killing these mobs to try to level up the nearby node for mutual benefit), it doesn't make sense to feel annoyed that someone outside your abstract concept of a 'party' helped you achieve that common goal by attacking an enemy you got to first.

    Obviously, creating things that people want to compete over to create organic conflict is important, but I think that's best left to things like caravans, resource nodes, and certain rare world bosses. As long as players only feel 'obligated' to join a party when the content is significantly more meaningful than the typical grind, you'll be far less likely to alienate the players who prefer the freedom of soloing basic content at their own pace.
  • ilisfetilisfet Member, Braver of Worlds
    Ideally I'd be exploring with a group, like an adventuring party in stories. But unfortunately human companions in games oft rush to the next objective over everything else, so I am loath to group for my favorite activities: exploration and questing.

    Free form world design can help in nudging players towards a slow paced mindset, but I'm unfortunately not well versed in how world design affects player behaviour. The only example I can think of to study is Minecraft.
  • oconnoroconnor Member
    I vote duos and trios for everything but the highest dungeon raid content. But also if we could que up in groups of up to groups of three for dungeon raids would be fantastic.
  • unknownsystemerrorunknownsystemerror Member, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty
    edited May 2019
    Has the 8 man dungeons/40 man raids been changed and I missed the memo? I thought this was to get ideas on how those should be implemented. Like, should a party of 8 tanks with the same secondary be able to achieve the same results as a mixed and "balanced" party.

    I'd like them to stick to their original plan and not cave. No groupfinder, no porting to group or dungeon, all the stuff that was debated and put out pre-Margaret should not just be thrown out now that bringing in people that have worked on other games that implemented different systems to try and change the core of what people have been here from the beginning have been waiting on. They are approaching the jump point where they can no longer middle-of-the-road this stuff and have to swerve right or left. "we plan on doing amazing things and everyone will be happy" is not going to cut it for another year without some concrete gameplay in peoples itching trigger fingers.
  • After my time here on planet earth, I have definitely realized that a moment shared is better than the moment itself sometimes. The same goes with games. The best groups I have found are with people who share the same values and are on the same page in terms of gaming. Mostly you close friends but sometimes not, sometimes a virtual friend you met on discord who shares the same temperaments as you or passions as you.

    Now a group cannot be too large because the larger the group the more it causes people to go back into their shells with only the most boisterous being heard. I think a group of 3-5 maximum is the perfect balance to cater for everyone....peace out.
  • Best experiencd of grouping for me was when I was tanking for my guild in legion EN mythic.

    It was amazing because we had fun, we joked around and teased one another. I was a good tank and thus felt myself important.

    I would like raids and dungs in AoC to also make me feel necessary for the group.
    If we get small groups I hope theyre as far as possible from mm+ in wow.
    Mm+ was the most tedious content Ive played and eventually spamming the same dungs led me to quit.
    You're seeking perfection, but your disillusions are leading to destruction.
  • ShadowVenShadowVen Member, Braver of Worlds
    edited July 2019
    Playing with and engaging in a Group in any MMO is Dire for me personally. I look forward to grouping with small groups to large raids.

    Ideal User Interface:
    • For groups, and raids especially, i'd like to see any marker that is used on a player to also be placed as a mini icon next to the players name in the Group/raid list to easily identify within the list.
    • For Large groups/raids I would prefer to see the class role type to be organized and consolidated. I know Ashes will have a very unique class system, however there could still be the ability for the player to choose which role he/she thinks best fits their class build, Such as: Support, Healer, M.DPS, R.DPS, Tank, Backup Tank.. Etc. Keep class roles grouped within the Raid list to help identify them easily.
    • In Raids specifically, If you have 4 groups in a Raid, such as Groups A, B , C, & D, and you are in group A - to have the ability to Expand/Reduce Groups B,C,&D Party blocks.

    Ideal Group Dynamics:
    • I'd like to see some sort of grouped Tier bonuses. For instance, bonuses dependent upon Killing specific mobs or bosses while in group, Length of time in group, number of chained kills (if this system will exist), number of PVP players defeated within certain time limit (for PVPers)...etc. The rewards can vary, from a Movement speed bonus to timed minor health regen buff. It can come in many ways.
    • I love using mechanics within a party that challenges the group and brings unity and communication. A great experience is any mmo that includes Skill Chains within a party and some sort of magic bonus damage dependent upon what skill chain activated. This adds usage of class variety and a more challenging experience during group gameplay.
  • Since I have been playing it again, Early in City of Heroes tanks ran everything. If the tank wanted to go left everyone went left, if the tank stopped playing it was only moments before the group fell apart or found another tank. It was not the same with other classes, blasters were a dime a dozen, supports only had one job, keep the tank going. It was horrible.

    Group makeup needs some diversity, if the paladin you brought to fight the skeletons isn't working, try bringing a rogue to sneak past.

    I'm not one for raiding, seems too much like work to me. If you want to get casual players like me to try and keep raiding don't make it so mechanical. Make the fight hinge on a quicktime like event instead of a 30 minute slog were one mistake dooms you to failure.

    I don't use dungeon or group finders let whomever is in the right place at the right time group up if they want or because they have to.

    Guilds that group should make their own rules on how their groups work or more likely other guild groups will be more than happy to show them what doesn't work and don't miss the siege cause you can't get out of the dungeon.

    Keep group size at 8, I like big groups makes my mistakes smaller, if you want to travel with a smaller group good for you, just know that it'll be harder or impossible for you.

    Groups are what I play mmorpgs for, I want AoC to show me something new.
  • devorandomdevorandom Member, Leader of Men
    Without going into specifics I think that the ideal group experience is one where the content challenges the players in such a way that every role makes a noticeable impact and when that group overcomes the challenge is presented with a reward the has a meaningful affect on at least one players progression/game-play.
  • CaelronCaelron Member, Braver of Worlds
    How do you feel about grouping in MMOs - what's your ideal group experience?

    As much as I hate to admit it, a game's success almost entirely depends on the other people in the game and what they bring to (or take away from) the game itself. If you have a bunch of people who don't like to socialize, but are forced to do group content for whatever reason (quest, item drop, progression, etc.), it'll be very easy to experience the more toxic or not-fun players.

    It sounds like Ashes of Creation is doing a great job considering all possible aspects of an MMORPG and how dynamic the experience can be - especially for "grouping". Whether it be for PvE or PvP.

    My ideal group experience would be something more closely related to playing Dungeons and Dragons. If I'm out exploring and I come across a hidden Dragon's lair, I want to be able to gather a few trustworthy friends and check it out. The key there is "trust". If we kill the big bad evil guy, or dragon in this case, I imagine there's going to be lots of loot. I don't think there should be any loot-box or loot-table. I want it to be out in the open, able to be picked up by anybody. This also means that if I'm sneaky enough, I should be able to steal it, even without killing the dragon. Of course, as a dragon is bound to their treasure, I expect him to chase me until one of us is dead - but maybe that could be a part of the encounter, and he can only be killed by something already in his possession? Who knows? I love the idea! Even if there's a way to have people with a max "sleight of hand" skill, and steal from under other's noses... If I don't know about it, I won't be mad! But if I see it, I want to be able to bop him right there and feed him to the nearest dragon.

    To play devil's advocate, and put a little realism in to the equation: If there's that many people in the world, and many people know about it... what's to stop them from killing you immediately after you kill the "boss", and steal all the loot? Or a "friend" betraying you and the last second and swiping all of the loot and leaving you with none of it? One of the best examples I had came from a game called Nexus TK (I probably reference it way too much). Whoever killed it (solo player, or the group), was allowed to pick up the loot. If another player comes along, he/she can't steal it until after a certain amount of time had passed (I think 10-30min in this case), then anybody was allowed to pick it up. Though, if somebody within the group swiped it, then drama would ensue... but there was an in-game justice system (partially run by players) to hopefully deter people from stealing from the group. It was still possible, though! Even if they were caught, found guilty, and imprisoned for a period of time... at the end of the day, they'd still have the loot - but there'd be a red-mark on their character legend that let everybody know that they were a thief.

    Half of the mechanics seemed to be designed to prevent invisible rogues from swiping everything from everybody before they could get to it... but then again, they also called Rogue's the "path of riches" for that reason, too.

    One of the pillars of the game is "meaningful conflict". I'm not sure loot division falls in that category in everybody's mind, but it's possible. On the other hand - having people constantly steal your stuff would be a game-ruining experience... so it's tough to balance.

    tl:dr - I want the ultimate freedom, but the outcome is going to depend on other players. Good players in groups = good experience. Bad players in groups = bad experience.
  • TeylouneTeyloune Member, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty
    I want the group content to be challenging enough for us to want to try to clear it, but not so impossible that people quit the game ala FFXIV in month 4 when the only content was the Extreme Primals where if you had even 1 second of lag you wiped.
  • My scenario of ideal group gameplay would have to be a multitude of experiences. From dungeon delving into the greatest of unknown mysterious locations such as the "bad lands", to sieging an unfathomable defensive fortress intertwined with stairwells and pin-points to keep the enemy at bay. Big-boss battles would usually require a group and hopefully I can harvest the creature to make my glorious outfit and deeds known. His head as a trophy on the pikes of my home if I were a Ren'kai.
  • jsxfirejsxfire Member, Founder
    In my opinion, the best group play experience is when need others players, we HAVE TO play in group for make harder things and take satisfaction when the quest or dungeon is over ... the synergy between class, the trust we have in our team and they can become our friends or our rival ^^ :) each class should have an identity and a place in a team (a tank need a heal a heal need a tank and both need their dps this is the group play !)
  • AevarisAevaris Member
    Group gameplay should be something that is easy to find. There is nothing more frustrating than having to have a group to do X but it taking 30-60 minutes to build said group, unless its a super specialized high level thing where you need a specific balance. Group dynamics allows for making new friends, so it should be easy to drop-in without knowing folks.

    Groups should offer benefits for playing well together. Nothing is more ragey than getting into a group and someone goes griefer. This will always happen, but the party system should encourage good player behavior to minimize it and then should have mechanics for dealing with a griefer.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds
    On the challenge and time spectra, my playstyle is:
    casual challenge/hardcore time
    I am fashion over function when it comes to gear. And I would rather wipe a bunch of times while figuring out how to successfully win the challenge with the gear and abilities the players with me like to use rather than efficiently winning the challenge as quickly as possible with cookie-cutter gear/abilities/tactics.

    My bartle score is:
    Explorer 87; Socializer 73; Achiever 47; Killer 0

    Since killing is the easiest and quickest way to advance progression in MMORPGs, I do kill stuff, of course.
    But, in pen and paper D&D, I typically attempt to use Stealth and Diplomacy skills to avoid combat as much as possible. And, I usually have some alts working the Carebear Challenge to reach max level with no kills whatsoever.

    My ideal group would be filled with casual challenge players who are Explorer/Socializers or Socializer/Explorers.
    I don't enjoy playing in groups with Killer/Achievers and Achiever/Killers and they don't enjoy grouping with me. So, it would be nice to be able to easily figure out which players have similar/compatible playstyles.
    Maybe as part of the character sheets we have available to publicly display outside of the game.

    My ideal combat group would consist of players from my Node who I enjoy hanging out with.
    Hopefully, over time, I will know where in the Node their homes are so we can easily find each other when we're online. And, hopefully, we will have learned how to support and synergize each others' combat tactics.
    A group experience I hate in NWO was the party telling me to have my Ice Wizard start using Repel abilities because those were more efficient for the dungeon we were in. I argued that the role I'm playing is an Ice Wizard; not a Repel Wizard, but, for them, efficient function trumped roleplaying (character acting).
    I would much rather wipe a bunch of times to figure out how to clear the dungeon as best we can with a player roleplaying an Ice Wizard - figure out how to maximize the effectiveness of their ice abilities - than try to force them to use Repel abilities.
    Just as I wouldn't want a Necromancer in my group to be told they need to switch to Beastmaster because that's more efficient for a specific dungeon.

    The devs want a typical party to be an 8-person party with one of each primary archetype. Which is OK (although, I'm somewhat concerned about the time that might take to form for casual time players).
    But, I would also like to have challenges designed for 4+ Tanks or 4+ Clerics or 4+ Rogues... etc.

    So far, though, we're all thinking about ideal groups for dungeons and raids - 8-person party and 40-person raid.
    I wish we had enough info from the devs to contemplate ideal "groups" for defending and attacking caravans - and ideal "groups" for crafting, sieges and monster coin attacks. "Groups" in quotes because we shouldn't have to be in a party or a raid in order to contribute to and participate in those challenges.
  • Wandering MistWandering Mist Member, Founder
    Damokles wrote: »
    ryuuji wrote: »
    or mage firebols or some fire spel can couterize wounds or electric spell can energyze player for more haste some sing like this.

    That would make buffing classes or healers obsolete...

    I am all for synergizing classes with each other, but one class should not be able to use a spell in two different ways xD
    A good example for synergizing attacks would be a mage that uses a fire dot AoE and a ranger shoots through, turning his arrow into a flaming arrow.

    GW2 sort of does this with their combo fields and finishing moves, but in all honesty they were very much a "neat side-effect" that was never really relied upon. The effects of the combos were either buffs that were already accounted for, or were so situational that it was hard to find a use for them.
  • Damokles wrote: »
    ryuuji wrote: »
    or mage firebols or some fire spel can couterize wounds or electric spell can energyze player for more haste some sing like this.

    That would make buffing classes or healers obsolete...

    I am all for synergizing classes with each other, but one class should not be able to use a spell in two different ways xD
    A good example for synergizing attacks would be a mage that uses a fire dot AoE and a ranger shoots through, turning his arrow into a flaming arrow.

    GW2 sort of does this with their combo fields and finishing moves, but in all honesty they were very much a "neat side-effect" that was never really relied upon. The effects of the combos were either buffs that were already accounted for, or were so situational that it was hard to find a use for them.

    Tell that to the dot warrior build that i am running xD. It depends on me synergizing my aoe effects with my secondary weapon ;)
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