Thank you to all who participated in our August 20 play test! If you joined in, please remember to leave your feedback and bug reports on the forums here: https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/categories/apoc-bug-reports

The proverbial carot and the special snow flake.

Now there are ways to make people feel like a special snowflake or that they have something special.
But here is what not to do.

Some game made mounts that were less than one percent drop rate so only a few people would have them. (Actually nothing wrong with that this post is not about drop rates)

But the drop rates were low so some of the people were not into putting in all the time for those mounts and would just give up on them. One percent drop rates in that came could mean over three years of farming will spare you the statistics, but that is also 3 years of subscription.

So what this really smart devs is put a statement in the code that increased the drop rate of a rare mount for poeple that did NOT have one(rare mount that is ) in order to make getting a rare mount a reality using that as a hook to keep them farming other rare mounts. This cannot be proven but people noticed that when they had a new person or a persons in their raid group without a rare mount a mount would most likely drop. So they would get new players that did not have any rare mounts to use them to increase the drop chance of the mount. I know THIS cause I was the new palyer.

I cannot prove this (if i could I would list the name of the game ) but it is true.

However the devs were not smarter than their entire player base so people eventually figured it out and resented it so they lost players that way.. I know that you guys are really smart but there are players that are even smarter than you so ......


Same game would make class mistakes in class creation(Every one makes mistakes no biggie). For example they made one class way to bursty (stacking cooldowns and making your dps peak really high). The problem was way to much dps in like one second so in pvp opponents did not have time to react use there deffensive cooldowns so they would just die very quickly. So what they did is they put a one second delay in the backround so buffs would take extra second to take effect to nerf that class wiith out telling any one about it. That way toons would have time to react to massive dps. Thinking they were really smart....

Ounce again people figured it out it really do not think details are necessary here but people resented it and well they lost some of their palyer base.

Same company would come out with new classes and make them over powered intentionally so people would play them and make them popular and after some time would nerf them in to make the game fair and fun when they were the ones that made them op in the first place.

Plus lots of other things the point is your player base collectively is way smarter than than all your devs put together.

So if you are doing something that your player base might be upset about do not do it. Cause they will find out and will resent it and will hurt you in the long run.

And if you made a mistake in like nerfing a class but not enough and have to go back and nerf it again but do not anounce the second time you nerf it to save face and promote your image well you are just shooting your self in the foot.

And finally do not politic with your player base and lie about why you do things as far as the game is concerned your players base knows why you do everything. One example is saying that you came out with a new class and that is a hero class well later on players find out it was just made op to make it popular.

You cannot OUT WITT your entire player base and it only takes one of us to tell the rest of the players why you did what you did but if you want to slowly kill your own game you can...happens all the time number one reasons MMORPGS FAIL.

Sorry post is negative just really sick of what goes on not just in MMORPGs but just in online games in general .
Ashes of Creation has done a great job so far so not saying anything bad about them. Just want to point out that you are not going to fool or trick your entire player base, Things like that work for other products but not video games cause we talk to each other. So do not listen to some hot shot marketing person that does not even play video games.

Respectfully,


Consultant




Comments

  • grisugrisu Member
    tenor.gif
    I can be a life fulfilling dream. Grisu
    I can be a life devouring nightmare. Zekece#1819
  • WololoWololo Member, Leader of Men
    il have to agree with you on this. cant beleave that people still refuse the earth is flat. all the stuff on tv and in the media might make one beleave the earth is round. but to those i want to ask: if it is round then why doesnt water on the other side of earth falls off ? by now we would have lost all water on earth. i can highly suggesting anyone to take a look at this map made in 1983. it is one of the best info we have on our earth to date. as you can see the earth is actually square, not perfectly flat but curved along the edges wich gives the round impression alot of people are noticing BRM1124-Square-Stationary-Earth-1893-1600x1098.jpg
    from the bottom of my heart i want to thank you for creating this thread. i wish more people would join our international research society and spread the word.
    Wololo.png
  • AzathothAzathoth Member, Braver of Worlds
    I think the OP is concerned with back end mechanics that affect game play. Things that, instead of being even for all players as available info would indicate, have additional hidden mechanics that make them not so even. If there is another game that actually does this, rewarding players with rare equipment if they had none by increasing the drop rate specifically for those players, I can see where the worry would come in but overall I don't think I would exit Ashes if I found out they planned to do this. It seems like a reasonable method to keep things both rare and somewhat evenly distributed.

    In the OP example the supposed mechanics were rigged so new players had a higher chance at rare mounts versus players that had already obtained one. So (speculation), groups would pull in players that had yet obtained a rare mount so as to heighten the chances of one being dropped. Now, if the group gave said new player that rare mount, all would be fine, but if the players were gaming the system and using unsuspecting new players and giving them a lesser pay out, that is shady. Likely not against any server rules and what not, but shady. Just tell someone up front that's the plan.

    Of course this is all speculation, potentially in the land of conspiracy. However, the OP's 'moral of the story' I think is still valid. Whereas asking people to just believe in a conspiracy theory would be odd. I am glad the OP does not mention an actual name for the game, then it would just be a hater thread.
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    +1 Skull & Crown metal coin
  • noaaninoaani Member
    edited May 27
    I'm always weary of claims like in the OP.

    Most developers know that any changes they make to their game, players will figure out. When communities reverse engineer entire games, developers literally have no where to hide. A small time developer that does things like this will always be a small time developer.

    So, there is no actual reason to do shady things like in the OP.

    However, many players are also prone to both hyperbole and statistical ignorance.

    When working for a rare drop, it is human nature to think the one change we made the time we got it actually made a difference. We have no reason to believe there is a correlation, but we believe it regardless.

    We ran a dungeon 100 times and got nothing, then on the 101st time, we took a new player without any rares and we got the item to drop. We ignore the fact that of those 100 first runs, we took new players without rare drops for half or more of them (when we started, we were new players with no rare drops). We post on the forums that this happened, and someone else comes forward saying the same thing happened to them.

    Now, rather than realizing that statistically speaking, half of the time that rare item drops the group will have someone new in it, we make the unreasonable conclusion that in order to get this item to drop you need a new player in the group. We fully believe this, we spread it around as the truth, and it becomes the accepted truth.

    From this point forward, every time this item drops with a new player in the group, people say it is because of the new player. This ignores the fact that because players believe a new player is needed, new players are in 75% of the groups running this dungeon, thus are present 75% of the time the item drops - due to pure, random statistics. All of these new drops are posted about, reinforcing the need to take a new player along to get this drop.

    It's a self perpetuating fallacy.

    Now, I'm not saying there aren't dumb developers out there, there absolutely are.

    What I am saying is, it is far more likely that anything like the OP's situation in regards to the rare drop mount is far more likely to be a result of mob mentality of a player base than it is for a developer to actually code in to the game and not tell players (or at least hint).

    I've never seen any MMO developer make any changes to a class without full patch notes, so I'm not sure about the buff situation. It's possible that they made a change to one ability and that had an unintended effect on a buff from a different class. It's also possible that there was simply some latency for a period of time, followed by the above mob mentality.

    As to the thing with classes, all MMO's do this when they add a new class or race. They want people to abandon their existing characters and make new ones. In order to do this, they need to entice people towards that new class or race. After a while though, things need to be bought back in to line with everything else.

    This is what I would consider "expected developer behavior".
  • Wandering MistWandering Mist Member, Founder
    There are a few things to talk about here. Firstly, it's physically impossible to make everyone happy, so no matter what the developers do, they are going to upset someone. The hard part is knowing when complaints are valid and when they are just whining. There are also times where a developer has to make unpopular decisions for the good of the game and the community. Attempting to remove flying in WoW is one such example.

    That said, I agree with the OP that developers should try to be honest about their systems. I'm not saying they need to tell us everything, but if they tell us that an in-game system works a certain way, then it should work that way. What pisses players off the most is when the devs say a system works one way, and in fact it works another way, intentionally. Destiny 2 is a perfect example of this, where players found out that the game was giving them less exp than it was supposed to.

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/insertcoin/2017/11/25/destiny-2-has-been-secretly-reducing-xp-gains-and-is-stopping-after-fans-caught-on/#3c7b7c696a76

    TL:DR, the devs said they would change how the exp system worked only after the players discovered it for themselves and started complaining about it. This is what I like to call piss-poor management and PR, not to mention greedy as hell since the exp system is intrinsically linked to the in-game microtransactions.

  • noaaninoaani Member
    edited May 28

    TL:DR, the devs said they would change how the exp system worked only after the players discovered it for themselves and started complaining about it. This is what I like to call piss-poor management and PR, not to mention greedy as hell since the exp system is intrinsically linked to the in-game microtransactions.
    This is what I would consider a non-MMO developer trying their hand at games-as-a-service and not knowing what they are doing.

    They are a big time game developer, but small time in terms of the online gaming space. If they keep doing things like that, they will remain a small time developer in the online space (no idea if it was done when Activision was in charge, or when Bungie was). That game has lost what, 80% of it's player base?

  • I know it is off topic but responding to a post here technically the earth is flat any physics major will tell you that now. Not kidding so all those guys in the past that said the earth was flat were actually right. Has to do with everything being 2 dimensional or something like that.
  • unknownsystemerrorunknownsystemerror Member, Leader of Men
    They need to add tinfoil as one of the resources in game, that can only be used to craft special hats.
    south-park-rabble-rabble-rabbl-53b58d315aa49.jpg
  • RavudhaRavudha Member
    Comprehensive patch notes that show any and all changes would be ideal. At the same time, if devs need to make numerous adjustments to a piece of content (e.g. made the entire dungeon x easier) I can appreciate a summary statement to that effect as being just as honest as detailing 75 individual changes to mechanics at a very low level - 'enemy x now waits 3 seconds before casting spell y'.

    I can imagine cases where it'd be nice to know there are changes but have to learn what they are myself to adapt my game play.
  • Wandering MistWandering Mist Member, Founder
    Ravudha wrote: »
    Comprehensive patch notes that show any and all changes would be ideal. At the same time, if devs need to make numerous adjustments to a piece of content (e.g. made the entire dungeon x easier) I can appreciate a summary statement to that effect as being just as honest as detailing 75 individual changes to mechanics at a very low level - 'enemy x now waits 3 seconds before casting spell y'.

    I can imagine cases where it'd be nice to know there are changes but have to learn what they are myself to adapt my game play.

    One thing I love about League Of Legends in their patch notes is that every single change they make comes with a short explanation of why the change is being made. Even something as simple as saying "we believe this character is too strong at this point in the game" can provide an insight into the developer's mindset.

    Then of course for bigger patches and content updates, something like this:

    Is invaluable. As you can see from the like/dislike ratio, the players really appreciated this gesture from the WoW game director. Even if you don't agree with the design choices made, having this insight into what is going on at the studio is fantastic, and something I hope more games devs will copy in the future.

    @noaani Apparently Activision were responsible for the monetisation and content releases for Destiny 2, and they have been doing online gaming experiences for quite awhile now. Now that Bungie are in full control and are completely changing the monetisation for the game, it will be interesting to see how the players react to it. I'll be certainly keeping an eye on it and may even try the free version of the game when it is released later this year.
  • WololoWololo Member, Leader of Men
    shkevi wrote: »
    il have to agree with you on this. cant beleave that people still refuse the earth is flat.

    consultant wrote: »
    I know it is off topic but responding to a post here technically the earth is flat any physics major will tell you that now. Not kidding so all those guys in the past that said the earth was flat were actually right. Has to do with everything being 2 dimensional or something like that.

    LMFAO Man, you just made my day XDDDDD
    Wololo.png
  • argentdawnargentdawn Member, Braver of Worlds
    No hidden Mechanics.. no hand holding, no gear normalization, no "bad luck" bonus. Keep the game straightforward. 1% is 1% there are way too many games where we see the same outfit on the same character model. Let things be rare... We already have the basis of this with the city leaders and castle owners with mounts. Let unique, rare and prestigious items/mounts/skins/rewards be a reward not a handout.
  • Wandering MistWandering Mist Member, Founder
    @argentdawn You really expect the developers to put every piece of information of an ability into an in-game tooltip? Even if they wanted to be that transparent (which no developer with any sense would), it would be totally impractical.
  • KarthosKarthos Member, Braver of Worlds
    @argentdawn You really expect the developers to put every piece of information of an ability into an in-game tooltip? Even if they wanted to be that transparent (which no developer with any sense would), it would be totally impractical.

    Could you imagine? Hovering over a skill and seeing:

    "Ice Fire: Freezes your enemy for 3 seconds rendering them with status effect "slow". This reduces movement speed by 20% unless they meet a resistance number of >30, in that case they are only effected for 2 seconds. Target also takes burn damage at the rate of 5 damage every 2 seconds for a total of 6 seconds unless they meet a resistance number of >30, in that case they are effected for 4 seconds. This includes racial resistances as well as gear stats, use the table below to calculate."
    Aq0KG2f.png
  • argentdawnargentdawn Member, Braver of Worlds
    @argentdawn You really expect the developers to put every piece of information of an ability into an in-game tooltip? Even if they wanted to be that transparent (which no developer with any sense would), it would be totally impractical.

    I'm wondering where... If anywhere I reference tool tips in my comment... My comment is directed at "bad luck" mechanics and other shady game mechanic tools like Gear normalization (every player in the event has the same stats available regardless of gear), player or enemies level syncing.. which was directly related to the OPs initial post. Your response came out of left field homie.
  • argentdawnargentdawn Member, Braver of Worlds
    Karthos wrote: »

    Could you imagine? Hovering over a skill and seeing:

    "Ice Fire: Freezes your enemy for 3 seconds rendering them with status effect "slow". This reduces movement speed by 20% unless they meet a resistance number of >30, in that case they are only effected for 2 seconds. Target also takes burn damage at the rate of 5 damage every 2 seconds for a total of 6 seconds unless they meet a resistance number of >30, in that case they are effected for 4 seconds. This includes racial resistances as well as gear stats, use the table below to calculate."

    I actually wouldn't mind seeing that in a spell book. Just not on a hotbar tooltip lol.
  • Wandering MistWandering Mist Member, Founder
    argentdawn wrote: »
    @argentdawn You really expect the developers to put every piece of information of an ability into an in-game tooltip? Even if they wanted to be that transparent (which no developer with any sense would), it would be totally impractical.

    I'm wondering where... If anywhere I reference tool tips in my comment... My comment is directed at "bad luck" mechanics and other shady game mechanic tools like Gear normalization (every player in the event has the same stats available regardless of gear), player or enemies level syncing.. which was directly related to the OPs initial post. Your response came out of left field homie.

    Your first 3 words of that post were "no hidden mechanics" which to me are interactions related to abilities that aren't told directly to the player. This is not limited to mmorpgs either. Super Mario games often have special jumps and moves that are never told directly to the player, but are still programmed into the game. You can't even really call them bugs or glitches either. They are simply mechanics that we aren't told about and are left to figure out on our own.

    Anyway, I consider "bad luck protection" to be fine as long as it isn't overused, and usually it's only overused because of excessive amounts of RNG. I've played games before that didn't have any bad luck protection (ever tried finding a Munchlax in Pokemon Platinum?) and they sucked.
  • whitedude31whitedude31 Member, Founder
    argentdawn wrote: »
    @argentdawn You really expect the developers to put every piece of information of an ability into an in-game tooltip? Even if they wanted to be that transparent (which no developer with any sense would), it would be totally impractical.

    I'm wondering where... If anywhere I reference tool tips in my comment... My comment is directed at "bad luck" mechanics and other shady game mechanic tools like Gear normalization (every player in the event has the same stats available regardless of gear), player or enemies level syncing.. which was directly related to the OPs initial post. Your response came out of left field homie.

    Your first 3 words of that post were "no hidden mechanics" which to me are interactions related to abilities that aren't told directly to the player. This is not limited to mmorpgs either. Super Mario games often have special jumps and moves that are never told directly to the player, but are still programmed into the game. You can't even really call them bugs or glitches either. They are simply mechanics that we aren't told about and are left to figure out on our own.

    Anyway, I consider "bad luck protection" to be fine as long as it isn't overused, and usually it's only overused because of excessive amounts of RNG. I've played games before that didn't have any bad luck protection (ever tried finding a Munchlax in Pokemon Platinum?) and they sucked.

    yes . . . munchlax can go fuck himself, fuck that game, and fuck you for reminding me :neutral:
  • CaerylCaeryl Member
    Changing how things work on the backend isn’t inherently bad, but devs NEED to communicate those changes to the playerbase.
  • noaaninoaani Member
    argentdawn wrote: »
    Karthos wrote: »

    Could you imagine? Hovering over a skill and seeing:

    "Ice Fire: Freezes your enemy for 3 seconds rendering them with status effect "slow". This reduces movement speed by 20% unless they meet a resistance number of >30, in that case they are only effected for 2 seconds. Target also takes burn damage at the rate of 5 damage every 2 seconds for a total of 6 seconds unless they meet a resistance number of >30, in that case they are effected for 4 seconds. This includes racial resistances as well as gear stats, use the table below to calculate."

    I actually wouldn't mind seeing that in a spell book. Just not on a hotbar tooltip lol.

    On tool tip is fine, as long as players have options of seeing no tool tip, minimal tool tip info or full tool tip info.

    I mean, if Archeage can manage to do that, then surely Intrepid can as well.
  • seaberseaber Member
    Karthos wrote: »
    @argentdawn You really expect the developers to put every piece of information of an ability into an in-game tooltip? Even if they wanted to be that transparent (which no developer with any sense would), it would be totally impractical.

    Could you imagine? Hovering over a skill and seeing:

    "Ice Fire: Freezes your enemy for 3 seconds rendering them with status effect "slow". This reduces movement speed by 20% unless they meet a resistance number of >30, in that case they are only effected for 2 seconds. Target also takes burn damage at the rate of 5 damage every 2 seconds for a total of 6 seconds unless they meet a resistance number of >30, in that case they are effected for 4 seconds. This includes racial resistances as well as gear stats, use the table below to calculate."

    I could imagine:

    Ice Fire Freezer burn: Deals 15 Burn Damage over 6s and Slows target by 20% for 3s. Resisted by 31. If Resisted, deals 10 Burn Damage over 4s and Slows target by 20% for 2s.

    or

    Freezer burn: Deals 15 Burn Damage and Slows target by 20% (6 seconds). Resisted by 31. If Resisted, duration is lowered by 2s.

    or

    Freezer burn: Deals 2.5 Burn Damage each second and Slows target by 20% (6 seconds). Resisted by 31. If Resisted, duration is lowered by 2s.

    Things like Slow, Burn Damage and Resistance should be defined elsewhere.

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