Should these mechanics be a thing in Ashes PvP combat ?

Wololo

So I think GW2 has the best PvP combat from any game i played before. It got me hooked since release, trying to reach leggy every sezon. The reason being that alot of mechanics in that game add to skillcap. And even tho everybody got the same gear strength in PvP, it is actually possible to win a 1v2 or 1v3 vs the same geared players or even same classes IF you utilize all minor advantages in combat. I feel Ashes is going in that direction too wich is nice but there are 3 points i cant find enough info on to confirm and I wonder for a long time alrdy how the community thinks about these;

-iFrames on dodge and jump-dodge.
A well timed evade frame in dodge can avoid burst from multiple players but only if one has the experience and skill to predict it. I cant find any info if evade-frames on dodge will be a thing in Ashes?
Also using jump and dodge at the same time wich makes you move further away by the slightest when the dodge ends, the difference in distance can barely be noticed by eye. It is very hard to pull off but can make that little difference by jump-dodging over a gap of 2 objects etc. I just feld this adds alot to skillcap.

-Cancelling Skills.
So we know animation canceling will not be a thing in ashes, and that is wise because its just tedious to always have to cancle every skill for max dps. But what about canceling pre-cast during channel with escape or stowing weapon? It creates this mind game between players in PvP. One could channel a high value skill and bait out dodges (referring to first point) and blocks just to cancle it during cast. Ofcource on the flipside this will come with a cooldown on the skill like 1/3rd the cooldown it would have if you finished casted it. If you know for sure the skill will not hit and you are quick enough to cancle it imo thats a good thing.

-About Face/Mobility skills not needing a target.
The option to both turn your camera, and player 180° instantly is nice to have. I know its a simple mechanic to add to the game if Ashes is going for that. Even after release. But if you combine it with mobility skills not needing a target some very nice gameplay is possible. For example the ranger rollback.. you could instead of rolling backwards and shooting one arrow: Untarget the enemy>Turn around>'Rollback' towards the enemy>Cancle the cast of the Arrow you shoot after the roll (referring to second point)>Swap to melee weapon because you are standing close. Turning a kiting skill into a offensive one. I bet next to the mage ports there will be more of those mobility skills porting sideways or in a angle or slightly up. The possibilitie's are endless. But to make it fluid i beleave such camera options are a must to have on hotkey.

Sorry for this wall of tekst Do these 3 points make sence ? or are they toxic ? I am curious to what yall think

Wandering Mist

I am very curious to know how the dodge mechanics will work, although I doubt we'll be given the huge number of iframes you get in GW2. I imagine it will be more akin to the dodge-rolls in Dark Souls. But that's purely speculation on my part.

You say there won't be animation cancelling in Ashes. Do you have a source for that? I personally haven't heard anything about it, and having a game with no animation cancelling in it at all is very rare. Even if the devs don't intend for you to do it, I'm sure you can find a way.

I've never felt the need to use about face and camera manipulation hotkeys in combat, so I'm not too worried about them being in the game or not. All of my player and camera movement is done with the mouse, which works for me just fine.

Glory

I have to be honest. I think the "downed system" combined with no healer ruined the GW2 combat system. With that said, I think GW2 definitely has some cool concepts that could be implemented.

I am also curious where you read that skill cancelling isn't in Ashes. I haven't read that personally.

unknownsystemerror

They have mentioned no animation cancelling at least twice during livestreams that I can remember.

Wololo

Yes @ https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Combat 'Animation cancelling will not be a combat mechanic.' I just hope thats still possible during the channel of a skill :C

Wandering Mist

shkevi wrote: »

Yes @ https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Combat 'Animation cancelling will not be a combat mechanic.' I just hope thats still possible during the channel of a skill :C

It may not be intended, but I guarantee the players will find a way to do it.

Magic Man

I can't give an example of a good combat from a single MMORPG. Although spammy and a bit too fast, BDO combat isn't too bad. GW2 combat has many skill elements which is good. A mix of both might be really fun. I like the APOC ranged combat which had both projectile and hitscan elements. As Steven mentioned several times, action combat of Ashes will emphasize the skill element in the MMORPG - so you have nothing to worry about

Wololo

@wanderingmist thats so true lol xd

@kayra Yes ! Having both projectile and hitscan feld great. Cant wait for this to develop when action and tab get combined.

Thanks for the reply's guys. Guess Il wait the testing out and hope for these things to be included :P

Wandering Mist

@shkevi it will be interesting to see how they balance targeted and skillshot abilities. I really hope we get some solid information on how the combat will work soon. So far all we've been given are a bunch of abilities, which doesn't really tell us how the combat will feel to use. Even an in-depth action combat system can feel really sluggish if the under-the-hood mechanics aren't implemented properly.

You talk about iframes in the OP, and that has a huge effect on the game. In GW2 you have iframes through the entire roll animation, and the combat is designed to make full use of this, creating a very reactionary experience. If you try to play that way in Dark Souls, you will die very very quickly (as I discovered when I tried playing Dark Souls 3 and couldn't beat the first boss). In Dark Souls you have very few iframes to work with because it's intended for you to read the attacks in advance and use the dodge roll to re-position, rather than use the iframes to avoid taking damage.

That one difference alone completely changes how the combat feels. I honestly don't expect the devs to tell us the intricacies of how the dodge rolling will work, so it will be up to the players to figure this stuff out when we get to test it.

Wololo

intresting at least the dodges in APOC BR so far feld more like Dark Souls/monster hunter for positioning rather then evading

Karthos

glory wrote: »

I have to be honest. I think the "downed system" combined with no healer ruined the GW2 combat system. With that said, I think GW2 definitely has some cool concepts that could be implemented.

I am also curious where you read that skill cancelling isn't in Ashes. I haven't read that personally.

Yes this.

GW2 PvP felt lack luster to me also because it wasn't about a team working together, it was all self sustained people who just happened to be fighting in the same place.

The actual fighting was great, and smooth/well built, but I couldn't shake how unfullfilling it felt to do things like WvW because it was just two swarms of ants running around and the map.

And don't get me started on the GW2 Culling system.... Cuz you know, we love getting hit by enemies we can't see.

Wandering Mist

shkevi wrote: »

intresting at least the dodges in APOC BR so far feld more like Dark Souls/monster hunter for positioning rather then evading

That would make sense given how the rest of the combat works (from what we've seen/been told anyway). In GW2 there are very few skillshots so the dodge roll iframes are needed to avoid taking tons of damage from aoe. To balance this, you can only dodge twice in a row. On the other hand, in games like Monster Hunter World you can dodge a lot more often but don't have nearly as many iframes to use.

Wandering Mist

@karthos and @glory the downed system in GW2 was.....interesting. I can understand why they did it, since giving everyone a self-heal and dodge roll meant you didn't need to rely on anyone else in combat. The downing and reviving system was a way to put teamwork back into the combat system.

Then of course the devs tried to ham-fist tanking and healing into the game when the core system was never designed to support those roles. All in all it turned the game into a complete mess in my opinion.

It speaks volumes that there is a class in GW2 called the "Guardian" and the best build for that class is a full dps 2-hander build.

Plateau

Personally, I'm a big fan of iframes. I guess I'm just used to them from games like Dark Souls, Monster Hunter, TERA, and of course GW2. Those are actually some of my favorite games. Do I like those games because of the dodge roll, or do I like the dodge roll because of those games?? One second please, having an internal crisis.......

Anyways, I do hope that AoC has some form of active defense (block, dodge, parry) that you can use re-actively. And those things always work best when they can cancel other abilities. (Hopefully without making defensive animation cancelling super important to DPS... looking at you TERA tanks.) I don't think every character needs to have access to iframes or full-blocks by default, but I'd like it to be an option for most characters (maybe limited to certain subclasses). And I think it's pretty important in PvP to have some kind of personal, reactive defense tool (iframes or not) on every class. (Edit: I guess the style of PvP in FFXIV and WoW, centered around CC and healing for defense, is okay too, but I'd prefer something different.)

As in all things, it's best to put these defensive abilities on a spectrum (with trade-offs for the stronger ones), and give the players options.

ArgentDawn

Personally not a fan of iframes in MMOs because of latency+iframes+server tick can cause major issues when people cause their own client or internet to lag in their favor. I'm REALLY hoping to see longer TTK than we have been seeing in modern games with longer fights causing you to resource manage and use your environment in pvp to outfight others.

The addition of spell collision, line of sight, tab Target and active targeting abilities with hit scans I don't see a need for iframes.

Thinking away from pvp I fully expect to see pve mechanics if performed improperly designed to kill you and having iframes is an easy way to cheese that.

Plateau

@wanderingmist Yeah they really should decide whether healers are necessary in group content or not. It's was kinda weird how years ago I could do all the open-world and dungeons and lower-level fractals without even thinking about healers, and then when I came back after while and got into higher-level fractals healers were basically mandatory. I still don't notice healers in the open-world group events though.

Wandering Mist

@argentdawn They are looking at a TTK of 30 seconds to a minute, which sounds about right honestly. Of course, whether this will actually happen or not is another matter, but I guess we'll see what happens.

@leonerdo The problem with GW2 is that the players cried out for raids and so the devs tried to put WoW-style raids into the game in the laziest way possible. The core gameplay was never really designed for group content and ham-fisting in "tanks" and healer specs into the game was a big mistake in my opinion.

As for active blocking, in APOC there is apparently a shield that allows you to actively block projectiles. I wonder if that will stay in the game or change at all. Parrying is also a weird one. In games like WoW it is just a chance to proc, but if they made it into a more active mechanic like in Dark Souls or Bloodborn, that can completely change the combat.



Ahhhhh, all these possibilities are driving my nerd-brain insane, and we aren't likely to get any answers for ages yet!!