Ranged weapons and gameplay

Damokles

This topic is mainly for the Ranger(and mage) class!

Maybe I am alone with this, but i would really appreciate it if we could augment ranger abilities to gain extra range.
I think it would make an interesting playstile to focus on range and slow heavy hitting abilities for a ranger (ranger/ranger is called hawkeye and would make a good class for this idea).
The focus here would be to deal heavy damage in short time windows, before disengaging and setting up another position for another chance.
This would maybe not be the best stile for straight up PvE, but put more focus on open PvP, castle defense and ks-ing boss kills in the open world.
What do you think of this idea? Should a class be possible to enhance the normal max range of their abilities and autoattacks through augmentation or not?

grisu

Yes

zinnie

I like the idea of essentially augmenting a Ranger class to be a Sniper. Sacrificing damage at shorter range to be able to deal damage at longer ranges.

seaber

In archeage there was a skill that would increase your archery skills range from 28m to 53m, changed your basic attack from being fast and low damage to slow and high damage(dps was slightly increased), prevented you from moving and would only* be canceled by taking direct damage or not dealing damage for 4s.
That skill made archers incredibly overpowered and even if the basic attack was unchanged they would have been incredibly overpowered.

Increased range and burst damage are two things that should be handled with extreme caution. You want a class to have both? That's a nope from me

Damokles

@seaber
I want them to have extremely enhanced cooldowns and lowered defensive capabilities.
So much that they are really stationary glasscannons, dropping defense and adaptibility for high range and dmg.

Blackhearted

If you want that kind of burst on higher range, what do u leave to ones not choosing enhanced range augments?

edit: damage wise

Damokles

blackhearted wrote: »

If you want that kind of burst on higher range, what do u leave to ones not choosing enhanced range augments?

edit: damage wise

Bigger and stronger aoes, normal attacks with a dot on normal range, extreme attackspeed with lower range (shortbow) and lower cd's

Wandering Mist

I'm fine with having a class with insanely high range and burst potential as long as 2 conditions are met:

1. There needs to be a trade-off, in terms of mobility and defense.
2. There needs to be gameplay counters in place.

Simply put, a high range high burst playstyle needs to rely on good positioning, and if you don't position yourself properly and let an opponent get too close to you, you should die for it.

Azathoth

To me that seems cheap. The ranger would be able to stay far enough away that their target could not reach them. The attack mentioned in the OP would be a 'heavy hitter' too, so by time you are hit and take damage and find the assailant, you are hit again. Then you have to close the distance, likely being hit again.

"The focus here would be to deal heavy damage in short time windows, before disengaging and setting up another position for another chance."

I'm all for increased range for attacks, but agree with others that there needs to be a trade off. Otherwise, I may be wrong, but it sounds like you are asking for a PvP class ability that would prevent you from actually having to engage in PvP. That's why I think it sounds cheap.

Damokles

azathoth wrote: »

To me that seems cheap. The ranger would be able to stay far enough away that their target could not reach them. The attack mentioned in the OP would be a 'heavy hitter' too, so by time you are hit and take damage and find the assailant, you are hit again. Then you have to close the distance, likely being hit again.

"The focus here would be to deal heavy damage in short time windows, before disengaging and setting up another position for another chance."

I'm all for increased range for attacks, but agree with others that there needs to be a trade off. Otherwise, I may be wrong, but it sounds like you are asking for a PvP class ability that would prevent you from actually having to engage in PvP. That's why I think it sounds cheap.

Like i said in the other posts: the trade off here would be extremely long cool downs. If the ranger cant take down the target in that first time window (one rotation of main skills and spells) then he has only the option to run as fast as he can. Which would be slow, because he lost most movement abilities in trade for the high burst.
I imagine a tank his ultimate counter, together with any class that has an ability to block, dodge or ignore attacks for a specific period of time.

Wandering Mist

damokles wrote: »

azathoth wrote: »

To me that seems cheap. The ranger would be able to stay far enough away that their target could not reach them. The attack mentioned in the OP would be a 'heavy hitter' too, so by time you are hit and take damage and find the assailant, you are hit again. Then you have to close the distance, likely being hit again.

"The focus here would be to deal heavy damage in short time windows, before disengaging and setting up another position for another chance."

I'm all for increased range for attacks, but agree with others that there needs to be a trade off. Otherwise, I may be wrong, but it sounds like you are asking for a PvP class ability that would prevent you from actually having to engage in PvP. That's why I think it sounds cheap.

Like i said in the other posts: the trade off here would be extremely long cool downs. If the ranger cant take down the target in that first time window (one rotation of main skills and spells) then he has only the option to run as fast as he can. Which would be slow, because he lost most movement abilities in trade for the high burst.
I imagine a tank his ultimate counter, together with any class that has an ability to block, dodge or ignore attacks for a specific period of time.

Do you believe such a spec should be able to 100-0 any other class in a single spell rotation?

Damokles

@wanderingmist
Yes, cloth wearers for example.
IS already said that the classes will be balanced in a rock-paper-scissors way.
Tank survives burst and beats this build. Long range ranger bursts down generic cleric (for example). Cleric out heals the tank and grinds him down.

I firmly believe, that cloth wearers should be the ones, who have to be aware of their surroundings the most.

georgeblack

I will be biased as a melee warrior so I wont claim to contribute.
However try to recall an image of large scale PvP in most mmorpgs atm. What do you see? I see only pew pew pew pew and a boring standstill

Damokles

@georgeblack
That why i think that the fighter and tank should have a damage dodge/immunity skill that protects them for 3 sec. (Like the good old paladin bubble)

Blackhearted

George, if someone is biased its the op.

I'm planning to main a ranger but this just sounds stupid op.
To me it sounds like damo got an idea what he would like and proceeds to ditch everything else out of the window.

grisu

We do realize that we have the option of free aim combat right? So if you choose to go this sniper route, maybe you are forced to use free aim for your skills and weapon attack. Hitting a >relatively speaking< slow projectile over a long distance on a moving target is not as easy as you people make it out to be.

Also, thje base concept of most rogues in mmos is that, 100 to 0 and out with stealth again. It's nothing we haven't seen before, just a different application.

Wandering Mist

grisu wrote: »

We do realize that we have the option of free aim combat right? So if you choose to go this sniper route, maybe you are forced to use free aim for your skills and weapon attack. Hitting a >relatively speaking< slow projectile over a long distance on a moving target is not as easy as you people make it out to be.

Also, thje base concept of most rogues in mmos is that, 100 to 0 and out with stealth again. It's nothing we haven't seen before, just a different application.

That would be the most obvious solution. On that note I will be interested to see what effect the environment has on the combat. Will you be able to use the trees for example to block attacks?

Varkun

Perhaps extra range could be an augment you apply to a ranged ability but if you do it lessens the damage by a good amount quarter third or half perhaps. This way very long range abilities would be more harassment rather than kill shots from extreme range forcing people to keep their heads down during sieges.
As for cover amongst trees, I would hope they provide cover but excessive lag or high latency could negate what cover they provide. I know this problem all too well playing ESO from Australia.

Damokles

blackhearted wrote: »

George, if someone is biased its the op.

I'm planning to main a ranger but this just sounds stupid op.
To me it sounds like damo got an idea what he would like and proceeds to ditch everything else out of the window.

Black, you do realize that such a thing is normal when proposing an idea/concept. I thought it could be an interesting concept, and btw... i wont play a ranger even if they do give the chance for such a built. I want to play a bard or rogue sub class, and nearly everyone knows that!

(I am defending it because a ton of people seem to always forget to remember my explanation for the downside of this spec)

seaber

damokles wrote: »

Like i said in the other posts: the trade off here would be extremely long cool downs. If the ranger cant take down the target in that first time window (one rotation of main skills and spells) then he has only the option to run as fast as he can. Which would be slow, because he lost most movement abilities in trade for the high burst. .

damokles wrote: »

(I am defending it because a ton of people seem to always forget to remember my explanation for the downside of this spec)

The skill I mentioned in archeage prevented ALL movement until you were hit by direct damage or did not deal damage for 4s, which is more of a downside than just losing 'most movement abilities', and it made archers insanely overpowered.

You also seem to be only thinking in terms of 1v1s. In a RvR fight, archers are going to be protected at the back and will be able to dish out tons of damage without worry.

There is a class specialisation for the thief in GW2 that allows them to deal burst damage at range and their movement is somewhat restricted and it decimates people in the 5v5 arena pvp.

Blackhearted

It just seems like ko potential from a great distance is a little too safe if u have extreme range.

With Grisus suggestion, If the projectile was slow it would be basically useless in long range and I think it would feel stupid considering physics.

I think Varkuns explanation makes more sense as it removes one shot potential from the build and encourages you to move closer and risk more when u want to go for ko.
Varkuns suggestion overall seems like something plausible.

This is a good topic though, as most of the time talking is beneficial and can inspire new ideas

Damokles

Okay guys here is what I thought of:


First things first:
I assume that the normal max range is 30m and that the "normal" deadzone for Rangers is 5m.


Hawk Training(Passive): Increase your max range by 10m.

Sniper Conditioning (Passive): Increase crit chance by 20%, if you take damage, your damage and movementspeed is lowered by 10% for 5sec.

Longbow Combo:
Target an enemy and use your bow to strike with a devastating blow. Deals piercing damage and powers up focus. You can charge the shot to deal extra damage.
Can only target enemies at least 10m away from you.

Hawkshot:
Deal x amount of physical damage to a target that is at least 20m from you. If fired from max distance, the attack recieves a 50% crit chance.
Cooldown: 10sec

Longshot:
Charge up a shot that flies forward in a straight line. Range increases with channel duration. It hits the first enemy it reaches.
Cooldown: 15sec

Arcaneshot:
Empower the next attack to deal additional Arcane damage, and root the enemy for 1.5sec
Cooldown: 15sec

Focusshot:
If your focus is at least at 80%, use up all your focus to channel an empowered attack. The empowered shot cant miss your target.
Cooldown: 20sec

Marking Arrow:
Fire an arrow at the enemy to enhance the next attack against the target.
Cooldown: 30sec

Stalking Stance:
Only one stance can be active at a time.
Stalking Stance lowers your movement Speed by 70% and reduces the enemies chance to detect you with detection abilities by 50%.
Cooldown: 1min

Concentrate:
Root yourself to the ground, enhance max range by 15% for 20sec. If the caster is hit, then the root is broken and the caster is thrown to the ground.
Cooldown: 1min

Eagle Eye:
Enhance your senses to deal +300% damage on the next three attacks.
(That is from an actuall skill that we know that a ranger already once had: Snipers Eye. Snipers Eye Summons a zone around you, while in this zone, deal +200% damage for ALL attacks and that is on level one)
Cooldown: 5min


All of these attacks are at least based on already known off Ranger attcks from the wiki.
I even had to nerf some of them... (Longshot comes from Power Shot that hits all enemies in a line, Eagle Eye comes from Snipers Eye which seems really op tbh, Concentrate is the opposite of sprint)

Azryil

I think it would be interesting to have a saboteur type class that specializes in traps and explosives, similar to how Rift handled their saboteur. This would be a class that could deal very high burst damage with the downside that if they weren't able to detonate charges they would do little to no damage.

Damokles

@arzosah
I somehow really like that idea xD
The idea is good, but what would be the downside on it? They could turn areas into a minefield, but loose single target abilities in turn?
I really liked the Legion Survival Hunter, with his explosives and throwable bombs etc It gave him something unique. They could have tbh leant into it some more.

Azryil

@damokles the biggest downsides would be that traps would take a fair bit of prep time and explosives would do nothing if you or your target dies before you get a chance to detonate.

Damokles

@arzosah
I now really want to see a group of saboteurs defend a castle *start WW II music*

CROW3

To be fair, a sniper is just someone who 'shoots from a concealed position.' Distance or accuracy isn't really a key attribute. A Ranger / Rogue is more of a sniper. A Ranger/Ranger could benefit from increased accuracy, power, and distance as more of a 'marksman.'

Damokles

CROW3 wrote: »

To be fair, a sniper is just someone who 'shoots from a concealed position.' Distance or accuracy isn't really a key attribute. A Ranger / Rogue is more of a sniper. A Ranger/Ranger could benefit from increased accuracy, power, and distance as more of a 'marksman.'

Well, the Ranger/Rogue is called a Scout so I really think of him more as someone that constantly harrasses his enemies, while staying on the move.