No pvp gear...game balance.

Well if there is no pvp gear . Is there any plans to exclude certain gear from pvp. Kind of goes like this certain items offer huge advantage in pvp so if none of them get excluded then pvp game balance is hindered. But if you wnat to have all the gear usable in pvp and pve and have game balance then PvP game balance will limit the type of items you can make. (Cannot make item that is to powerful in pve or will upset game balance in pvp..

People do like the he won or other team won cause they ahd certain gear that is hard to get. Or they won just cause of better gear.

If the main focus of pvp is fun not to much focussed on pvp game balance people that competative as far as pvp is concerned will go and play another game.

Read statement about equalized play only in some areans situation. (think talking about item levels but not clear)

So from the looks of it all other pvp will be unbalanced but might be really fun.

Would like to know how they are going to approach this issue as far pvp game balance is concerned. This is a huge issue in other games.

I guess you wnat gear to matter in pvp just some gear matters to much.
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Comments

  • DamoklesDamokles Member
    I really hope that they wont suddenly exclude items in PvP. Certain items with hard cc wont even exist, because Steven does not like hard cc.
    Can you give an example for items that gave you such a massive PvP advantage that you want them to be excluded?
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  • KarthosKarthos Member, Braver of Worlds
    I mean, just don't put items in the game that do unbalanced stuff.

    Problem solved.
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  • AzryilAzryil Member, Leader of Men
    I think they just need to be careful to not add items with effects that could potentially produce excessive damage output against players. Gear imbalances are going to exist, that's just the nature of games with vertical power progression.
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  • Sure here are some abilities.

    Speed buff six seconds let say 30 second cd ranger already mobile plus speed buff makes him uncatchable. (real item in a game) by melee dps.

    Health syphon. You get 5 percent health from toon non crit add 5% percent to your toon. means ten percent increase in dps. basically 100 percent health vs 110 percent health.

    items that that have any type of cc not just hard cc. One example of this you use an ability that slows target target uses ability to get out then you use slow from item and well mellee dps is done.

    item that summons a pet doin little damage no big deal just for roleplayeing purposes but can be used to set of traps (eat traps) Gues that one could be solved by game mechanics.

    Arzosay
    arzosah wrote: »
    I think they just need to be careful to not add items with effects that could potentially produce excessive damage output against players. Gear imbalances are going to exist, that's just the nature of games with vertical power progression.

    Well that is the point cannot make items to good so creativity is hampered kind of not being able to make a really cool class by adding abilities that upset pvp game balance. Fun vs gamebalance.

    As for as Legendary items go well will be limited to to cool particle effect and modes ability or normal magical item. So flaminge sword would count as legendary cannot make it any bette cause of pvp game balance.

  • AzryilAzryil Member, Leader of Men
    I don't really see an issue if legendary items result in globaling someone, so long as obtaining said legendary requires a significant amount of work.
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  • consultantconsultant Member
    edited June 17
    Not big deal for me personally I will be farming those items hopefully with a lot of luck I will get those items just rest of pvp community will have to do the same or get steamrolled.(maybe will not get legendary but) When game comes out there will likely be tickets opened from other pvpers about how certain items are to powerful cannot do that because items are not out yet.
  • mcstackersonmcstackerson Member, Braver of Worlds
    I prefer to go the more reactive approach and fix any issues that pop up.

    On a side note, has this really been an issue in recent times? I feel like a huge reason we had issues in the past was because designers were new to MMOs and un-aware of how people would use them. We have been playing these games for ~20 years now and while it's not impossibly, i'd think a lot of problem items would get caught at the drawing board.
  • AzathothAzathoth Member, Braver of Worlds
    If there is no gear specific to PvE or PvP, then wouldn't that make everyone on par with PvP?
    Someone could have a Speed-buff item and engage in PvP with someone who doesn't, but that doesn't break the game or PvP. I know some people will go out of their way to obtain all the "best" gear, but (potentially) outside of Legendary items crafted gear will be as good as (hopefully better) than dropped gear.

    Even in PvP specific gear settings people will have better gear than you.
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  • unknownsystemerrorunknownsystemerror Member, Leader of Men
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  • "There will not be equalized PvP in the open world. There may be equalized PvP in certain arena battlegrounds under specific circumstances.[93]"

    If we get equalized arenays the pvp community shouldnt be whining.

    The games design also plays an important role. Creating a combat where skill plays bigger role than gear results in PvP feeling more rewarding.
    You're seeking perfection, but your disillusions are leading to destruction.
  • ryuujiryuuji Member, Founder, Braver of Worlds
    May be when you enter arena or bg system twik your stats and equipment effects, for example if ring effect is stun on hit then it off or shorten.
  • Azathoth wrote: »
    If there is no gear specific to PvE or PvP, then wouldn't that make everyone on par with PvP?
    Someone could have a Speed-buff item and engage in PvP with someone who doesn't, but that doesn't break the game or PvP. I know some people will go out of their way to obtain all the "best" gear, but (potentially) outside of Legendary items crafted gear will be as good as (hopefully better) than dropped gear.

    Even in PvP specific gear settings people will have better gear than you.

    Completely agree.
    I mean, I admit I dont have a lot of pvp experience, but this is still an rpg, right? So, unlike shooters and mobas, previously obtained gear and player level should matter as much as skill in deciding victory. Facing someone with better items or items you're unprepared for should be pretty normal.

    So, as long as everyone can obtain them (with a quantity of work proportional to their power, of course), they can't utterly destroy one or more opponents of similar level in one use, are not mandatory to be an effective player and possibly offer some counters, I can't see why not to include them in normal pvp. After all, every piece of equipment that has made it in the game should already satisfy all the requirements.

    Still, I think it's good that they plan on having some equalized areas to have "fair" pvp almost only based on skill.
  • Well here is a question for you how is the pvp cummunity going to accept that they did not make the cut for a reward mainly cause some has some legendery or you been unlucky and have not gotten any gear with a magical abilities that is suited for pvp.

    Why should i spend a lot of time and put in all the work to be skillful at pvp when someone else will beat you cause of better gear.

    It is all and good for fun pvp I enjoy that content alot. But for competitive pvp were there is a pvp ladder and rewards does not work to well.

    Azathoth something tthe effect of needing to be careful well lets plug it in.

    A. Boots of Speed 20% speed buff stackable with other buffs. and Speed buffed to 175% flate rate not effected by other buffs one mine cool down for 6 seconds making you immune to slow effects.

    B. Boots of Speed boosts speed ounce every 5 minutes for 6 seconds to 175% speed nerfed for pvp could be same item just function differntly in pvp or two items one for pve one for pvp.

    Well for one thing A has already been found to op for rated/rewarded/pvp ladder type of pvp by real developers in a real game. I would also agree with them so save your post about how A is ok for pvp.

    Now lets suppose I am a dev at Ashes of creation and I have to be careful ........
    so I would pick B or a B like item.


    Now if there was no pvp well A would acceptable. But we have to be careful so we have to make B.

    So basically every piece of gear in the game is pvp gear cause buffs and minor magical abilities are contrained by pvp. Excluding Legenderies I guess.

    This is not the time say well Ashes of Creation is smart they are making gear that is suited to pvp and pve therefore it is pvx gear. No guys it is all pvp gear.

    So I guess IF they were careful with everysingle peice of gear in the game wa (really pvp gear) and have their creativity contrained by pvp game balance well I guess it could work.

    Really not sure how this no pvp gear is going work after what they said about equalized game play which as it was said. Sometimes play will be equalized in arenas. Think actaull words were under certain circumtances.


  • AzathothAzathoth Member, Braver of Worlds
    I'm sorry some feel the need to limit gear, or have PvP exclusive gear, to feel like PvP is fair. I am not one. If a player chooses to grind for items, and is then upset someone with said items kicks their butt in PvP, I call that a bit hypocritical. Yeah, one player was grinding for the gear so they would be better in PvP, but the other beat them to it so now they are upset? Childish really. I am not the one to care too much here.

    Also, there will likely be many items that are counters for CC. That allows for more flex in a paper-rock-scissors type of checks and balances. So for sure, if I find myself being 'slowed' excessively in PvP I am for sure going to quest/grind for the item that allows me to trump that. Some players won't, but they will likely find other means through abilities or augmentations to do the same. Or choose to just deal with it I suppose.

    This would likely lead to, me, having multiple types of gear available for swapping depending on what I am doing or who is whooping my a$$. Will I have time to swap gear during the battle? Probably not, at least not all the time, but I can be prepared for finding said opponent and trying again. Will this limit my carry capacity? Sure, but that's the risk for the specific reward or not being slowed during PvP.

    If you attack someone in PvP with a slow effect, and they are immune for any reason at all, and your goal is to complain that one thing you tried didn't work, I think you would be better to expand your arsenal and tactics. Same goes for trying to stun lock, or using the most powerful spell you have that is a specific elemental damage, or what ever.

    Maybe I don't understand PvP. Maybe in PvP some players just assume all their attacks and tactics should always be 100% effective against everyone. I find that mentality, if it exist, odd.
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  • RavudhaRavudha Member
    I don't see any good reason to exclude gear from PvP if the player has worked hard to earn that gear.

    I'm assuming there won't be ridiculously overpowered items that break the game. If a player becomes highly geared and feared, then others are free to adjust their tactics, find some allies, change their trade route, or improve their own gear to compete with that player.
  • It's best not to have pvp and pve gear.
    It's an open world mmorpg.
    You never know who will attack you so you shouldnt have to worry about what gear you are on.

    "Oh scum! If only I had my pvp gear on... but you attacked me while I was killing mobs"

    Big no from me. There shouldnt be pvp and pve stats in an open world mmorpg
  • noaaninoaani Member
    I don't get this argument.

    If I have an item that makes me better in PvP than you, then why don't you just go out and get that same item?

    As long as the item requires the same time, effort and resources for you to get it as it took for me to get it, then all is well.

    Now, if there is an item put in to the game that makes one class over powered in PvP - which would make them over powered in PvE as well - that is an item/game balance issue, not and issue with segregating PvP and PvE items.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds
    edited June 19
    I'm not in the "PvP Community", so, I don't know how they might feel, but...
    In terms of PvP, I expect to be focused on sieges and caravan attacks - where it shouldn't matter if someone has a Legendary item and I don't.

    If Boots of Speed are helping opponents outmatch me and my allies, that probably means we should start focusing on crafting or acquiring items that provide us with speed boosts - or items, augments and abilities that help us with Snares and Roots.
  • Wandering MistWandering Mist Member, Founder
    noaani wrote: »
    I don't get this argument.

    If I have an item that makes me better in PvP than you, then why don't you just go out and get that same item?

    As long as the item requires the same time, effort and resources for you to get it as it took for me to get it, then all is well.

    Now, if there is an item put in to the game that makes one class over powered in PvP - which would make them over powered in PvE as well - that is an item/game balance issue, not and issue with segregating PvP and PvE items.

    I think the fear is that the best pvp gear will come from high end pve content (I.e raids). If this is the case then in order for players to be competitive in pvp, they will be forced to do raids. This isn't a good situation for anybody.

    The funny thing is that Blizzard are making this exact mistake in their upcoming WoW patch. In short they are putting in an equivalent to augments in Ashes of Creation but these augments have to be earned from doing various pieces of content. This means depending on how things are balanced, the best augment for raiding might come from doing pvp arenas.

    I'm sure you can imagine the problems involved in forcing pve players to do pvp and vice versa.
  • AzathothAzathoth Member, Braver of Worlds
    Crafted gear should be as good, potentialy better, than raid gear. Although rare resources from boss drops will be a factor.
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  • unknownsystemerrorunknownsystemerror Member, Leader of Men
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  • noaaninoaani Member
    edited June 20
    I think the fear is that the best pvp gear will come from high end pve content (I.e raids). If this is the case then in order for players to be competitive in pvp, they will be forced to do raids. This isn't a good situation for anybody.
    I sort of understand this argument, however, I have three counter points.

    If a PvP player is able to force a PvE player in to PvP simply by attacking him, what means does a PvE player have of forcing a PvP player in to PvE? To me, the need for that PvP player to also run PvE is balancing the game out somewhat.

    Second, perhaps more to the point and as a direct result of the above, no one in Ashes should expect to be able to only PvE or only PvP. The game is PvX for a reason. Based on that, your above comment reads (to me) as follows.
    I think the fear is that the best PvX gear will come from high end PvX content. If this is the case then in order for players to be competitive in PvX, they will be forced to do PvX.
    Third, if I am in a raid guild and there is an item obtainable via PvP that is useful for raiding, I will get it - and be expected to get it. I will also expect every ember of my guild that is able to make use of this item to get it for use on raids - and the vast majority of raiders simply won't consider it an issue.

    This has happened in more than one MMO I have played.

    Why should the reverse not be true if a PvP player needs to raid to get an item for PvP?

  • DamoklesDamokles Member
    @noaani @wanderingmist
    Guys, dont forget that most of the gear will not be account/soulbound.
    I would think that if you need to replace your gear with something else you can just throw it back into the auction house or sell it directly, and then get better equipment.
    PvP players can just buy their gear directly if they dont want to do PvE content.
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  • Unbound gear means a really healthy mmorpg economy
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds
    In Ashes, raids aren't just about 40-person groups entering an instance.
    Our Nodes and caravans can be attacked by hordes and environmental hazards - we should be getting drops used to craft the gear we want by participating in the defense of our Nodes and caravans from PvE attacks.
    Since Ashes is a PvX game - it's all going to be PvX gear anyways.
  • consultantconsultant Member
    edited June 23
    Well the reasoning behind this post is PvP should be skilled based not gear based. As for as just going and getting the same item. Well it might be a rare drops most items like boots of speed are no point if every one has one. More for competative play too. Not neccessarily battlegrounds or pvp events like caravans though I must say will provide an advantage.

    Just to continue last post about being careful with gear and making gear....well you also have to be careful about abilities and potions and other items that come from professions and racial traits (basically anything that affects the game. So it would be Ashes of Creation the careful develpers that have to be tippy-toeing all the time as to not upset game balance vs Making MMOs Great Again. Really cannot do anything to exciting and if you do you have to check with Mister pvp game balance to see if it is ok.

    Well If Apocalypse got released as a stand alone content and there were arena brackets added to that plus some game mechanics to increase player options like what type of load out you have. Then competative play would be mostly separated and would not have to deal with the constraints imposed by having to be careful about anything you do in the game or it will upset game balance.

    So I guess winning because you grind more is alright. That is what I got from some posts really do not know how to respond to that. The way I see it that is the inherent problem.
  • AzathothAzathoth Member, Braver of Worlds
    Its not grind more. If you want the gear you are going to do what it takes to get it. If that means grinding that is on you, not Ashes.

    Even in PvP gear environments players will benefit from rare PvP gear drops that other PvP players won't benefit from. So to me that point is odd.

    Also, as stated, crafted gear will be on par with any dropped gear except for maybe legendary items. So you wouldn't have to grind, you could just buy the gear.

    If the argument is then "grind or fall behind" or "buy the best gear or fall behind" then maybe a PvP environment is not one conducive to your play style.

    To me it sounds like your main goal would be equalized PvP which you (I believe) pointed out might occur to some degree in arenas or battle grounds. I am not sure why you think gear will break PvP in Ashes. I think it will be skill because of the crafting system.

    You may be right. So maybe competitve PvP will not be Ashes strong suit. Its a PvX though, so it cant be the best at everything.
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  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds
    PvP is going to be about how players build their characters - gear is a key part of that.
    Boots of Speed would have a point since it's still player choice to equip Boots of Speed.
    If everyone is equipping Boots of Speed and ignoring all the other types of Boots in the game, that means there is some kind of problem with Boots of Speed.

    Of course, the devs are going to have to constantly be vigilant to not upset game balance with each item and augment and ability they add to the game. "Cannot do anything exciting" isn't really a thing.

    APOC is "standalone" for this context. It has very little to do with Ashes PvP game balance.
    People won't be winning PvP combat because they grind more. If people are winning 1v1 PvP combat because they have better gear than their opponents, that's probably more of a level issue and will likely lead to Corruption.
  • Wandering MistWandering Mist Member, Founder
    As someone who has played a lot of pokemon and follows the competitive scene, a lot of the skill comes from preparing your team with the best stats and moves. If everyone had all the same gear it removes that portion of the game and the skill required would drop.

    The other problem with normalising gear is that it stagnates the meta and certain classes benefit from certain stats more than others.

  • unknownsystemerrorunknownsystemerror Member, Leader of Men
    @dygz The only corruption would be if that 1v1 better geared person was killing someone who didn't fight back. No corruption as soon as they fight back. Basically the whole argument here is people saying "I want it my way!" when the only thing that matters is Steven deciding "This is the way, suck it up buttercup!"
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