PvP Community and GameBalance.

PvP cummunity will know mostly all game balance issues in first month. Not because of intilligence. But because it is just part of the natural learning curve. When you start learning how to surgical dismantle different classes that when it comes into play. Plus not to hard to notice things like a class is to bursty cause you just went from full health to dead in 3 seconds. You could be bad at pvp do a lot of pvp and notice one class really out performing another consistently. Point is as far as the people that pvp all the time they will have a clear picture of game balance in Ashes of Creation.

So if somehow you get wrong or just fail to see some game mechanic. Well a lot of pvpers will not play this game. No point in pvping in this game if pvp game balance is better in the game they are currently playing.

Tosan pvp hunter in WoW was commenting on how th 5v5 bracket was removed because the pvp comunity could not sustain it just not enough people to play. So those guys have 3 million subs I guess but no 5v5 bracket. Maybe Devs ought look into that.

My theory is PvPers out grew WoW saw that pvp system was fundamentaly flawed and went on to other games that had a system that did it better.


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Comments

  • wanderingmistwanderingmist Member, Founder
    It goes without saying that class balance needs to be on point for people to enjoy meaningful pvp, particularly in an arena setting.

    That said, when it comes to formal competitive pvp there will always be a favoured game mode that players will gravitate to. In LoL it's 5v5 summoners rift, in SC2 it's 1v1, and in WoW it's 3v3. Blizzard probably saw this trend and so got rid of the 5v5 mode so that they could focus balancing around 3v3 as the favoured competitive mode.
  • damoklesdamokles Member
    edited June 19
    I would like to see 40vs40 instanced guild battles/wars.
    For training purposes only ofc ;)
    (It would incentivise guilds to come up with interesting combat group compositions)
    4vIAwsd.gif
  • karthoskarthos Member, Braver of Worlds
    edited June 19
    I have test to play a PvP game that didn't have a "Meta". Whether that be a meta class, meta weapon or meta hear set.

    And honestly, that's ok to me. Balance, true balance, is what people strive for, but game balance is usually just meant to be that most players can be competitive.

    What do I mean by "competitive"? It's where no matter what class, skills or weapons you're using, you have a shot at maybe not winning, but at aleast holding your own.

    So I would say that for a game to have good PvP, balance is less important than making each class competitive. Balance becomes exponentially more difficult the more diverse the classes, weapons and gear is. It's much simpler to make sure the game allows your class skills and weapons to be competitive, if not balanced.
    Aq0KG2f.png
  • dygzdygz Member, Braver of Worlds
    I have to wonder how PvPer will be defined for Ashes.
    Ashes PvP is primarily objective-based - castle sieges, node sieges and caravans.
    I don't think we will see one class significantly out-performing others in those activities.

    Direct PvP combat 1v1 or group v group - that's gonna be rock-paper-scissors when it comes to class balance. Seems like it should be fine. But, there are many factors to test.
    We will just have to play to find out whether it feels fair.
  • Well gents looks like Steve is going with PvX game balance and guessing PvX gear since i cannot post about game mechanics that do not exist and to give Ashes of Creation a chance to pull off the PVX system of game play. Just going to stop posting on this topic no point on commenting on a system that is not out yet.
  • I can give examples of a game on which there was only PvX concept. A game which steven has said he used to be a player of.
    It is called Lineage 2 and a class could use different armor sets both for PvP and PvE and still perform.

    For example I used to play a gladiator. The best PvE and PvP settup was with an armor that increased dmg called Blue Wolf. You could go for months with that armor for both activities. Myself I used a different armor for more HP for PvP reasons called Heavy Doom armor. It did not affect my PvE performance. I didnt slow down in lvling up or farming.

    You wonder why after having lost dmg it was still the same.
    That is because in a PvX game if you lose a bit dps you are not kicked out of your team, since you can perform well if an enemy player appears to attack and stop your leveling or farming session.

    Of course for my class I could gain even more PvE strength if I went with an armor set that improved my dmg and crit rate, Medium armor of Doom. The same set was actually meta in PvP as well for a period, but gladiators acted more like assassins than warriors, hiding and waiting for an opening to deal dmg.



    Players unfamiliar to PvX will be very pleased with a game that doesnt force you to swap armor for PvE and PvP.
    If anything they will be very happy to figure out that their class can still perform in PvE while focusing on strengthening the PvP weaknesses or capitalizing on their strengths by trying different armors with a niche selection of stats.
  • When it comes to class balance they have said that some groups of classes will beat another group while being weak against another.

    On PvX I can see that some classes like archers or nukers or aoe based playstyle will lv up faster but may not be as good in small scale PvP.

    Other classes like assassins might lv up very slow but might be better in 1v1.

    Others might be well rounded but not shine anywhere. And ofcourse dont forget that IF the combat is implemented properly some people might rise above the norm and be great PvPrs.

    When I was about 15 and first started mmorpg two of my friends were playing the two strongest Knights.
    One of them would even beat players higher lv than him even from the same class. He would even beat my other friend whose knight was supposed to be stronger as a class. It was unbelievable.
  • karthos wrote: »
    I have test to play a PvP game that didn't have a "Meta". Whether that be a meta class, meta weapon or meta hear set.

    And honestly, that's ok to me. Balance, true balance, is what people strive for, but game balance is usually just meant to be that most players can be competitive.

    What do I mean by "competitive"? It's where no matter what class, skills or weapons you're using, you have a shot at maybe not winning, but at aleast holding your own.

    So I would say that for a game to have good PvP, balance is less important than making each class competitive. Balance becomes exponentially more difficult the more diverse the classes, weapons and gear is. It's much simpler to make sure the game allows your class skills and weapons to be competitive, if not balanced.

    Just to give an idea of what I am talking about.....

    Let me say first of all this problem does not exist because game is not done yet so it is unfair for me to be concerned about it at this point but assuming this problem does exists

    I was looking at ranger abilities and did not see a self heal so for arenas this is a big no no. Just intentionally going leave out game mechanics. So maybe ranger needs self heal to give healer time to react. But in APOC rangers were found to be OP and they were in the process of nerfing it. So if you give rangers a self heal then they will be over powered in 100vs100 bracket. Kind of wonder how pvx game balance is going work that out with just one system in place.

    But like I said it is very unfair for me to say that because Ashes of Creation has to be afforded the opportunity to do it with The PvX guidlines plus game is in Alpha. I am kind of left wondering how it is going to work though. But decided to post this to give an example of what some of my concerns are.

    As far as competative well let me just say that I played a class with low self heals. And found it it was just better to reroll. How did I find this out. Cause I would always go after my own class on the opposing team cause the were the easy kill. Again nothing to with Intelligence. Just school of hard knocks.

    So my point is the School of hard knocks is going to teach every PvPer out there if Ashes of Creation did a fair job of pvp gamebalance. PvP community is Huge So....
  • earthernearthern Member, Warrior of Old
    edited July 1
    I believe if they can find a good mix of hybrid combat that mixes the tab and action aspect, combat should be left more up to skill of the player and not to much on picking the right class and abilities which makes "METAS".

    That being said in APOC everyone was pretty much on even ground. Mostly everything you did cost stam or mag, so you had to manage and be mindful of what you did. There was times I fought multiple people and of course with the help of my team getting some hits in but it was all about how I manged my stam and mag along with my loadout of weapons and the abilities of those weapons.
    Xspearo
  • dygzdygz Member, Braver of Worlds
    @consultant
    Right. Rangers typically don't have a self-heal. Clerics typically have a self-heal.
    That might mean that Clerics have an advantage over Rangers in 1v1 arena battles. Just like Rock beats Scissors. For Ashes design, that's acceptable.
    In the Rock/Paper/Scissors paradigm, that should mean that Rangers have an advantage over Fighters because Rangers can shoot Fighters while the Fighters are Snared or Rooted.

    Rangers who want a self-heal might be able to get one as an augment from taking Cleric as secondary archetype. (We know Paladins get a self-heal.) That should even the battlefield of a 1v1 arena fight.

    @earthern
    Picking the right class and abilities is a player skill - the primary player skill in an RPG.
  • earthernearthern Member, Warrior of Old
    edited July 1
    @dygz How is picking the right class and abilities a player skill? Isn't that more of player knowledge, like picking ice to fight fire simply because ice beats fire. There is no skill in that because going into a fight the person with ice will have advantage.

    Balance would come from putting everyone on almost a even ground and leave it up to player skill and less RNG or my example of ice and fire which is player knowledge in my opinion.

    Xspearo
  • dygzdygz Member, Braver of Worlds
    edited July 1
    No. You have to have the skill to apply that knowledge in a way that is impactful. Fire could also beat Ice.
    Choosing the right gear, the right abilities, the right augments, the right race and the right stats is a skill.
    That particular skill is not devoid of knowledge. True.
    But...

    An Orc Ice Wizard probably isn't going to win over an Elf Fire Wizard just because the Orc chose Ice and Ice typically wins over Fire.
    But a highly skilled RPG player might be able to build their Orc Fire Wizard such that it almost always wins over Ice Wizards. Because that player is highly skilled at min/maxing the various categories of character building.

    The devs aren't planning to put all classes on an even ground. RNG is an inherent aspect of RPGs.
    RPGs don't just leave everything up to player skill.

    Knowing how the chess pieces move is player knowledge - implementing strategies and tactics that allow you to win most of the time is player skill.
    But, RPGs are more like backgammon than chess due to the RNG factor.
  • earthernearthern Member, Warrior of Old
    edited July 1
    @dygz You say "might" and "almost always" but that is more RNG and luck vs a player skill because that person that picked fire over ice has to play extra hard to might and almost always beat the ice. That knowledge of min/max can simply be googled, read, and applied. People post their builds online all the time.

    I believe since they are trying to make a hybird combat system they are trying to eliminate as much RNG and make it more about players action. I know RNG is a big aspect in a lot of RPGs but that is why you get a action combat system where its less depended on RNG and more on action and skill of the player and reaction to your enemy. If you can control the swing, dodge, and block and react to your enemies attack you can turn the tide of the fight.

    Knowing other characters abilities and using their weakens against them is knowledge because its learned or googled and easily applied. Skill is practiced and you get better at it with time.
    Xspearo
  • seaberseaber Member
    earthern wrote: »
    knowledge is learned and easily applied. Skill is practiced and you get better at it with time.
    What is this "skill" you talk of if not the application of knowledge? Take your time giving me a proper answer please
  • earthernearthern Member, Warrior of Old
    seaber wrote: »
    earthern wrote: »
    knowledge is learned and easily applied. Skill is practiced and you get better at it with time.
    What is this "skill" you talk of if not the application of knowledge? Take your time giving me a proper answer please

    Simple, can you read and learn how to aim in a FPS game and instantly apply it? No that is something you practice and get better with over time which turns into a skill.

    You can read and learn something that can be applied which becomes knowledge, like reading what class utilizes what ability best and apply that knowledge.
    Xspearo
  • dygzdygz Member, Braver of Worlds
    edited July 1
    earthern wrote: »
    @dygz You say "might" and "almost always" but that is more RNG and luck vs a player skill because that person that picked fire over ice has to play extra hard to might and almost always beat the ice. That knowledge of min/max can simply be googled, read, and applied. People post their builds online all the time.
    No. I say might because it’s a hypothetical example. And I say almost always because few things are absolute and even the best players can make mistakes. Even the best players can be outwitted sometimes.
    The RNG aspect is really separate from that because that much could be true even with a game like chess.
    You seem to be saying that there are no skilled chess players - master chess players are all about knowledge; not skill.

    Again, RPGs are more like backgammon because it’s a mix of player skill and luck of the dice.
    RNG is there in MMORPGs to reflect the dice rolls of pen and paper RPGs.

    RPG is a different game genre than FPS. Intentionally so.
    RPGs are supposed to be about the abilities of the character; not the abilities of the player.
    I should be able to build my character such that it has more Wisdom or Intelligence or Dexterity or Charisma than I do.

    If my character has a Dex of 20 and your character has a Dex of 9 but our player “twitch” skills are even, my character should typically win, but there will be some RNG involved to represent luck and atypical incidents.
    But part of player skill is being able to build a character with gear and augments and class abilities and weapon abilities and racial choice to take best advantage of that 20 Dex rather than just assuming a 20 Dex will always trump a 9 Dex if player “twitch” skills are even.
    Character-building strategy and tactics also takes skill. Skill that is reliant on knowledge, sure.
    Just because something is a mental skill rather than a physical skill doesn’t mean it’s not a skill.


    earthern wrote: »
    I believe since they are trying to make a hybird combat system they are trying to eliminate as much RNG and make it more about players action. I know RNG is a big aspect in a lot of RPGs but that is why you get a action combat system where its less depended on RNG and more on action and skill of the player and reaction to your enemy. If you can control the swing, dodge, and block and react to your enemies attack you can turn the tide of the fight.
    The hybrid tab-target/action combat system is not being added to get rid of as much RNG as possible. You will not hear the devs talk about getting rid of as much RNG as possible.
    Targeting that relies on the player’s aim inherently relies more on player “twitch” skills, sure. But, that’s not the same thing as getting rid of as much RNG as possible.

    If I want my character to have better aim than I might typically accomplish due to my poor aim as a player, I’m going to build a character that has high Dex and a class and gear and abilities that allow me to maximize that stat.
    A skilled player would be able to build a Vek character with a Dex of 9 that can give an average player with a character who has a Dex of 20 a run for its money - and win most of the time. Due to knowing how to maximize the RNG to their favor.

    Since Ashes is a PvX game, with no difference between PvE gear and PvX gear, I doubt there will be much of a difference between abilities used against players and abilities used against mobs.
    And I expect some RNG will be use in PvE combat which means it will also be used in PvP.
    But, that’s a great question to ask the devs to clarify.
  • earthernearthern Member, Warrior of Old
    edited July 1
    @dygz ZAYYtFK.jpg

    I think this will be the different/new type of RPG that wont solely depend on characters ability but also incorporate player skill. I remember them speaking about having a headshot mechanic. A headshot cant be RNG or luck but skill.


    Live stream with timestamp
    Xspearo
  • seaberseaber Member
    earthern wrote: »
    seaber wrote: »
    earthern wrote: »
    knowledge is learned and easily applied. Skill is practiced and you get better at it with time.
    What is this "skill" you talk of if not the application of knowledge? Take your time giving me a proper answer please

    Simple, can you read and learn how to aim in a FPS game and instantly apply it? No that is something you practice and get better with over time which turns into a skill.

    You can read and learn something that can be applied which becomes knowledge, like reading what class utilizes what ability best and apply that knowledge.
    seaber wrote: »
    Take your time giving me a proper answer please

  • dygzdygz Member, Braver of Worlds
    edited July 3
    earthern wrote: »
    I think this will be the different/new type of RPG that wont solely depend on characters ability but also incorporate player skill. I remember them speaking about having a headshot mechanic. A headshot cant be RNG or luck but skill.
    That quote you posted basically says the same thing I did.
    There will be RNG. The action combat mechanics reward player twitch skills.
    That's not the same thing as getting rid of RNG as much as possible.

    And, yes, RNG will pertain to character stats - which will still play a role in headshots.
    Not so much in whether there is a hit (though character Dex may still be a factor to some degree), but in determining the damage. Especially if Evasion is a stat and players are invested in maxing that Evasion stat.
    Because the Evasion stat will likely also be calculated into the damage results.
  • consultantconsultant Member
    edited July 2
    Well gents really respect your comments think be better for me to post ounce game comes out. Thanks for all your input.
  • earthernearthern Member, Warrior of Old
    edited July 2
    dygz wrote: »
    earthern wrote: »
    I think this will be the different/new type of RPG that wont solely depend on characters ability but also incorporate player skill. I remember them speaking about having a headshot mechanic. A headshot cant be RNG or luck but skill.
    It's not a different type of RNG. RNG is not all-encompassing.
    That quote you posted basically says the same thing I did.
    There will be RNG. The action combat mechanics reward player twitch skills.
    That's not the same thing as getting rid of RNG as much as possible.

    And, yes, RNG will pertain to character stats - which will still play a role in headshots.
    Not so much in whether there is a hit (though character Dex may still be a factor to some degree), but in determining the damage. Especially if Evasion is a stat and players are invested in maxing that Evasion stat.
    Because the Evasion stat will likely also be calculated into the damage results.

    What I got from that was they are trying to mitigate some of the RNG so skill can be more prevalent. So they want RNG to be less of a factor and more about a players skill.

    And no a headshot has nothing to do with character stats, did you play APOC? A headshot is a player aiming at someone's head and hitting it vs the body or legs. Only time the RNG evasion/dodge might happen if that ability is like tab target which a players skill cant dodge a aim bot type of ability.
    Xspearo
  • seaberseaber Member
    Headshots cannot replace rng crits. There are many situations where the ease of hitting headshots is greatly increased but rng crit chance won't be. Additionally, increasing one's crit chance stat requires sacrificing an increase in another stat while headshots do not.
  • earthernearthern Member, Warrior of Old
    edited July 2
    @seaber There will be a action based skilled let's say "power shot" that is mechanically aimed and if you hit the head it will count as a headshot/crit. So that aspect will depend on your aim/skill.

    Then there is also RNG crit chance which is based on a percentage and is RNG/random.

    A headshot is a crit shot but there will be skills that allows it to be player controlled vs skills that are RNG based on your crit chance.
    Xspearo
  • dygzdygz Member, Braver of Worlds
    edited July 2
    earthern wrote: »
    What I got from that was they are trying to mitigate some of the RNG so skill can be more prevalent. So they want RNG to be less of a factor and more about a players skill.
    Trying to mitigate some of the RNG is not the same thing as trying to get rid of as much RNG as possible.
    They want player twitch skills to be more of a factor than it is in MMORPGs that only have tab-target.
    So, yes, because Ashes includes action combat, RNG will be less of a factor than it is in MMORPGs that only have tab-target. That much is true.


    And no a headshot has nothing to do with character stats, did you play APOC? A headshot is a player aiming at someone's head and hitting it vs the body or legs. Only time the RNG evasion/dodge might happen if that ability is like tab target which a players skill cant dodge a aim bot type of ability.
    Headshot is a crit. As far as I know, the damage from that crit is not a fixed number.
    I don't think we were able to maximize our Evasion stat in APOC the way we should be able to in the MMORPG. That's a key difference between a BR and an MMORPG.
  • seaberseaber Member
    dygz wrote: »
    Trying to mitigate some of the RNG is not the same thing as trying to get rid of as much RNG as possible.
    They want player twitch skills to be more of a factor than it is in MMORPGs that only have tab-target.
    So, yes, because Ashes includes action combat, RNG will be less of a factor than it is in MMORPGs that only have tab-target. That much is true.

    The presence of 'action combat' does not mean that rng is less of a factor. It is extremely easy to think of an 'action combat' system where rng is a huge factor and a 'tab target' system where it is not at all a factor.
    dygz wrote: »
    Headshot is a crit..
    No
  • dygzdygz Member, Braver of Worlds
    edited July 2
    seaber wrote: »
    It is extremely easy to think of an 'action combat' system where rng is a huge factor and a 'tab target' system where it is not at all a factor.
    I don't disagree with that.


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_hit#Headshot
    In first person shooter games such as Counter-Strike: Global Offensive, Tactical Ops, and Unreal Tournament, the concept of a critical hit is often substituted by the headshot, where a player attempts to place a shot on an opposed player or non-player character's head area or other weak-spot, which is generally fatal, or otherwise devastating, when successfully placed.

    https://www.theaocdungeon.com/threads/headshots-in-ashes.270/
    Steven mentioned in a live stream that the headshot mechanic is something they are working on, and will not be going live in the way it is right now. It was more of a function used in the battle royal mode to help with skill shots since that's the style of the game. They are in debate right now whether or not they want to have "crit zone" mechanics in the game.


    "The idea behind headshot in the MMORPG is that, if we do implement headshots - part of this testing is to determine if we will - but if we were to implement headshots it will be along the lines of a higher critical chance. So basically hitting a skillshot on the head will increase significantly the opportunity for that damage to be critical. Will they one-shot? Absolutely not."
    -- Steven Sharif


    "So if you take a look at like kind of what a head shot represents: A head shot is basically a critical hit; and players who are relying on tab skills will have that critical hit chance baked into their character. They will have that fixed chance every time they use an ability or use a spell or swing a weapon; and then somebody who is kind of preferring you know action based, in order to get that crit, they're not gonna be relying necessarily on their stats they're gonna be relying on whether they get a headshot or not, or are able to hit that critical spot on that character. So that's kind of the direction that we're going in that way. Again, it's gonna be hybridized so there's gonna be a little bit of both happening in both places."
    -- Jeffrey Bard

  • whitedude31whitedude31 Member, Founder
    As much as I want to disagree with @dygz here @seaber I cannot. Dygz has this one right stating that headshot is a crit, but will probably be set as a different type of crit so our crit chance and crit damage stats can stack with it. That would lead to some heavy reliance on the action combat side of things, but would irritate some people that want to lean more on tab target. It will be interesting to see the system they come out with is all I can say at this point.
  • earthernearthern Member, Warrior of Old
    edited July 2
    As much as I want to disagree with @dygz here @seaber I cannot. Dygz has this one right stating that headshot is a crit, but will probably be set as a different type of crit so our crit chance and crit damage stats can stack with it. That would lead to some heavy reliance on the action combat side of things, but would irritate some people that want to lean more on tab target. It will be interesting to see the system they come out with is all I can say at this point.

    I believe there will be a either or type of thing. Like if a player chose action combat skill it will be more in the players hands to hit the headshot/crit hit. In a tab target combat system it will be based more on your crit chance to get a crit/headshot.

    I would think that would kind of suck if let says hard cap of crit chance is 60% and someone like me that is pretty good at aiming could hit the other 40% to make that 100% crit/headshot all of the time.

    I could see it working though. The person who chooses the action based skill lands those hits they are rewarded for the higher risk meaning more crits because they are actually aiming for it vs tab target because it is basically auto aim/aim bot. It would suck for tab target people tho becuase they might have to rely heavly on that RNG of crit chance unless devs find a happy medium with balancing it.

    so in end you are probably much correct @whitedude31

    nnI6GXt.jpg



    Xspearo
  • dygzdygz Member, Braver of Worlds
    edited July 2
    To hit is more directly in the hands of the player with action combat than it is for tab target, sure.
    The chance for a crit and damage from the crit is not absolutely determined without RNG, though.

    "The idea behind headshot in the MMORPG is that, if we do implement headshots - part of this testing is to determine if we will - but if we were to implement headshots it will be along the lines of a higher critical chance. So basically hitting a skillshot on the head will increase significantly the opportunity for that damage to be critical. Will they one-shot? Absolutely not."
    -- Steven Sharif
  • earthernearthern Member, Warrior of Old
    edited July 2
    @dygz yea but lets says if I aim at head which is a critical spot and hit head isnt that a headshot without RNG? For tab target they have crit chance which is RNG?

    S.N: your name seems very familiar, New World? @dygz
    Xspearo
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