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A possible problem with access to all weapons.

I currently play Eso because there's nothing better with good graphics at the moment.
Eso is seperated in PvP and PvE instances. For PvP 90% of the fighters uses sword and shield + one more weapon for 1-2 abilities only.
For PvE ever fighter must have a Bow and 90% or the time they have to dual wield as well as a second weapon.
Also 80% of the fighters use the common fighter ultimate ability instead of a class ultimate.

This is because when every class in the game has access to all the abilities that weapons offer the player will pick the option that is more viable.

I hope that AoC will find a way to beat this, and that we will see a variety of different playstyles.


I believe this can be achieved by having class abilities outnumber common abilities, weapon or other skill lines.
Or by having common abilities to work very uniquely so that the class identity is preserved instead of having what we have in Eso for example: PvP sword shield, PvE Bow+ dual wield.



Personally I will play a dual wield Dreadnough or Weapon Master no matter the meta, just like I did in Eso. I am just concerned and want the best for AoC

Comments

  • Samiel AurousSamiel Aurous Member, Braver of Worlds
    There will always be a meta no matter what the Devs do to mitigate that. I do agree that the class skill need to be better than common/weapon skill. Maybe change the weapon skill to strictly build combo stacks to allow for more powerful class skills? Its hard to say what will work but i do agree the meta in ESO is painful, effectiveness of fun imo.
  • KarthosKarthos Member, Braver of Worlds
    edited June 24
    The way we(or I do atleast, please correct me if I'm wrong) understand AoC skills and classes to work, revolve around "augments".

    Sure a Fighter can wield a staff, but he's not going to wield it the same as a mage.

    The secondary class you choose will augment your primary's abilities, and therefore your weapons. A Figher/Cleric may use a staff, but it won't do the exact same skills as say, a Mage/Ranger or even a Cleric/Fighter
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  • Wandering MistWandering Mist Member, Founder
    I have a feeling that the problem you are describing is rather unique to ESO, since in that game every player have near unlimited access to every skill tree, which makes it almost impossible to balance. After all, the more options you give players to customise their gameplay, the harder it is to balance it. In Ashes you will still be locked into a specific main class, despite being able to use every weapon type, so already there are far fewer options than you have in ESO.

    Not only that but Intrepid's plan is for the classes to be balanced around a rock-paper-scissors formulae which will also help maintain a relative balance. Of course, this is just the theory and if the devs really screw up it will all go down the drain. But then again, that could happen regardless of how many options you give the players.
  • CaelronCaelron Member, Braver of Worlds
    I'm just assuming craftsmen will be given the appropriate levers to adjust stats as people want. There might even be specializations for characters on top of that, too, so you never know!

    By the sound of it, it will be near impossible to have a one-size-fits-most item structure.
    Now, if all Rogues end up being best with Daggers, all Tanks with a sword and shield, and all mages with a Spell Tome... I probably won't complain too much.
    But, I better be able to create a dagger just as powerful as a glowing book to cast my spells through!
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds
    In Ashes, advanced weapons can have up to 5 weapon abilities, so... I'm not sure what "common abilities" would entail - especially with the various types of augments added to the mix.
    Also, seems like Fighters using a Fighter ultimate would inherently be using their class ultimate. I haven't played ESO, so... I don't get what that could possibly mean.


    Lots of people will bypass RP and go with whatever's most efficient... especially if the non-meta options aren't at all viable.
    If the game is designed correctly, lots of other players should be choosing to use weapons that fit their class motifs.
    In Bless Online, I wouldn't have my Cleric use a Bow unless that was absolutely the only way to overcome challenges because wielding a Hammer makes me feel immersed in my class.
    In Ashes, if most Fighters were choosing to use a Bow, I would probably choose to use a Tome specifically because that would make me unique.
  • CaelronCaelron Member, Braver of Worlds
    Dygz wrote: »
    In Ashes, advanced weapons can have up to 5 weapon abilities, so... I'm not sure what "common abilities" would entail - especially with the various types of augments added to the mix..

    I've heard you say this a few times... where does this come from? is this an APOC thing?
  • SarevokSarevok Member
    I hope we will see a diverse skill plethora that takes quite a few things into consideration. Main class skill + subclass augment (one of four options) + Equipped Weapon-type augment + Weapon Enchant or special item effect.

    i.e. If your class is a Guardian (Tank/Tank) and you are using an one-handed Axe and shield, maybe one of your abilities is something similar to Sunder Armor which applies a debuff to the target's physical armor and generates a certain amount of threat but since it is an axe it also causes the target to bleed for x dmg over y seconds and your axe is enchanted with fire which has a z% to apply a burning DoT as well - VS - say a one-handed sword that hits an additional nearby target applying a slightly weaker armor debuff but helps with multiple target threat management while still applying the burning DoT to both targets it hits.

    I recently picked up Divinity Original Sin 2 and I know it's more of a solo RPG but the way some attacks in that game combo out could make for some truly interesting tactics used on the battlefield. This would make for some interesting group dynamics and strategies used when in combat. Group synergy would be a very interesting topic.
  • Wandering MistWandering Mist Member, Founder
    Sarevok wrote: »
    I hope we will see a diverse skill plethora that takes quite a few things into consideration. Main class skill + subclass augment (one of four options) + Equipped Weapon-type augment + Weapon Enchant or special item effect.

    i.e. If your class is a Guardian (Tank/Tank) and you are using an one-handed Axe and shield, maybe one of your abilities is something similar to Sunder Armor which applies a debuff to the target's physical armor and generates a certain amount of threat but since it is an axe it also causes the target to bleed for x dmg over y seconds and your axe is enchanted with fire which has a z% to apply a burning DoT as well - VS - say a one-handed sword that hits an additional nearby target applying a slightly weaker armor debuff but helps with multiple target threat management while still applying the burning DoT to both targets it hits.

    I recently picked up Divinity Original Sin 2 and I know it's more of a solo RPG but the way some attacks in that game combo out could make for some truly interesting tactics used on the battlefield. This would make for some interesting group dynamics and strategies used when in combat. Group synergy would be a very interesting topic.

    I fear you are thinking about this too much like WoW's combat system, which relies heavily on passive effects that you can't control. I personally hope we DON'T see too much of that in Ashes. And no, it's not just because you mentioned Sunder Armor.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds
    edited June 25
    Caelron wrote: »
    Dygz wrote: »
    In Ashes, advanced weapons can have up to 5 weapon abilities, so... I'm not sure what "common abilities" would entail - especially with the various types of augments added to the mix..

    I've heard you say this a few times... where does this come from? is this an APOC thing?
    Nope. It's an Ashes MMORPG thing. The source is Jeffrey bard at PAX West 2017.

  • No gear restrictions does seem problematic wish they went with some gear restrictions. For example mage wielding two handed sword seems odd to me. Could easily accomplish same thing using two handed staff.
    Not quiet sure what the benefit of no gear restrictions is or the philosophy behind.

    For example hunters usually use bows. Well they could use cross bows short bows spears, axes and throwing axes and maybe other miscillaneous weapons like scythes and darts.. Ranger with a spell book and wand does not make to much sense to me. But if you are going to allow it it should be viable (there should be a reason to do it) if not it is just an option but not a good one.

    Rather have classes that have a good choice of weapons that have their proper application per situation. So people will always have a top dps set up but in certain situations then this weapon is better. Other wise well peoplw will only have one choice. That is the top dps choice. While there will be an illusion of having the choice to equip anything they want. Most people will just go with top dps choice and since every one knows what it is for their class. Then people will expect you to have it and tell yout to do it regardless of the fact that you want to role play a priest with hammer. Some other weapon is just better.

    So you can have a hammer but people will not play with you if you do have the cookie cutter set.
    But lets say you paly a preist with a hammer and that gives yuo some advatage then people will understand why you are running that set up. Other option is to equalize impact of gear. So it really does not matter what you equip purley cosmetic.
  • SarevokSarevok Member
    Sarevok wrote: »
    I hope we will see a diverse skill plethora that takes quite a few things into consideration. Main class skill + subclass augment (one of four options) + Equipped Weapon-type augment + Weapon Enchant or special item effect.

    i.e. If your class is a Guardian (Tank/Tank) and you are using an one-handed Axe and shield, maybe one of your abilities is something similar to Sunder Armor which applies a debuff to the target's physical armor and generates a certain amount of threat but since it is an axe it also causes the target to bleed for x dmg over y seconds and your axe is enchanted with fire which has a z% to apply a burning DoT as well - VS - say a one-handed sword that hits an additional nearby target applying a slightly weaker armor debuff but helps with multiple target threat management while still applying the burning DoT to both targets it hits.

    I recently picked up Divinity Original Sin 2 and I know it's more of a solo RPG but the way some attacks in that game combo out could make for some truly interesting tactics used on the battlefield. This would make for some interesting group dynamics and strategies used when in combat. Group synergy would be a very interesting topic.

    I fear you are thinking about this too much like WoW's combat system, which relies heavily on passive effects that you can't control. I personally hope we DON'T see too much of that in Ashes. And no, it's not just because you mentioned Sunder Armor.

    Would weapons be only an aesthetic then and leave the skills and their augments solely to the class combination?
  • georgeblackgeorgeblack Member
    edited June 26
    Sarevok wrote: »
    Sarevok wrote: »
    I hope we will see a diverse skill plethora that takes quite a few things into consideration. Main class skill + subclass augment (one of four options) + Equipped Weapon-type augment + Weapon Enchant or special item effect.

    i.e. If your class is a Guardian (Tank/Tank) and you are using an one-handed Axe and shield, maybe one of your abilities is something similar to Sunder Armor which applies a debuff to the target's physical armor and generates a certain amount of threat but since it is an axe it also causes the target to bleed for x dmg over y seconds and your axe is enchanted with fire which has a z% to apply a burning DoT as well - VS - say a one-handed sword that hits an additional nearby target applying a slightly weaker armor debuff but helps with multiple target threat management while still applying the burning DoT to both targets it hits.

    I recently picked up Divinity Original Sin 2 and I know it's more of a solo RPG but the way some attacks in that game combo out could make for some truly interesting tactics used on the battlefield. This would make for some interesting group dynamics and strategies used when in combat. Group synergy would be a very interesting topic.

    I fear you are thinking about this too much like WoW's combat system, which relies heavily on passive effects that you can't control. I personally hope we DON'T see too much of that in Ashes. And no, it's not just because you mentioned Sunder Armor.

    Would weapons be only an aesthetic then and leave the skills and their augments solely to the class combination?

    Weapons should have meaningful skills instead of a whole skilline.
    Meaningful would mean that some weapons should have 4, 3 or even 2 only abilities. Abilities that make a difference.
    Not 5 abilities per weapon just for the sake of it.
  • CaelronCaelron Member, Braver of Worlds
    consultant wrote: »
    No gear restrictions does seem problematic wish they went with some gear restrictions. For example mage wielding two handed sword seems odd to me. Could easily accomplish same thing using two handed staff.
    Not quiet sure what the benefit of no gear restrictions is or the philosophy behind.

    For example hunters usually use bows. Well they could use cross bows short bows spears, axes and throwing axes and maybe other miscillaneous weapons like scythes and darts.. Ranger with a spell book and wand does not make to much sense to me. But if you are going to allow it it should be viable (there should be a reason to do it) if not it is just an option but not a good one.

    Rather have classes that have a good choice of weapons that have their proper application per situation. So people will always have a top dps set up but in certain situations then this weapon is better. Other wise well peoplw will only have one choice. That is the top dps choice. While there will be an illusion of having the choice to equip anything they want. Most people will just go with top dps choice and since every one knows what it is for their class. Then people will expect you to have it and tell yout to do it regardless of the fact that you want to role play a priest with hammer. Some other weapon is just better.

    So you can have a hammer but people will not play with you if you do have the cookie cutter set.
    But lets say you paly a preist with a hammer and that gives yuo some advatage then people will understand why you are running that set up. Other option is to equalize impact of gear. So it really does not matter what you equip purley cosmetic.

    You're making a LOT of assumptions based on other games.
    Think about the mage you mentioned. Depending on how magic is cast, traditionally, mages use a focusing tool - whether that's a bladed weapon or not. Other types use complicated hand gestures, which means they couldn't even wield one while casting a spell. So maybe you still get the "bonuses" of having the weapon equipped, even if you're not swatting things with it?
    Same with a shield or armor. Think back to D&D: A mage caster typically needs the freedom of hands and arms to make the complicated gestures to cast spells, unless he had special feats, which rose the spell level or wasted extra spell slots. Of course, he/she could still wear full plate and have a shield, but there was a minimum 25% spell failure rate when casting. Not the smartest thing, but a situation might warrant it.

    A ranger having bows sounds pretty straight forward. But what about combat up close? Can't exactly thwap somebody with a bow string for damage, or risk breaking your bow hitting somebody with it. But I imagine certain skills require certain weapons. Can't exactly rain down a volley of arrows without a bow, of course. But it doesn't mean a ranger will be useless without a bow. Remember the traditional Ranger in D&D? They had two paths originally - Duel wielding (typically swords) or Bows. So anything can make sense in that regard.

    And it's been stated that there most likely will not be DPS meters in the game. That just means you'll have to pay more attention to who's actually doing the damage in the group. There's also going to be specific class utility that might even have a greater impact than pure damage. It's too early to tell!

    This is supposed to be a High Fantasy game. So, "because Magic!" can practically be an answer to nearly every question, too. They're limiting the base game to 8 main classes, with the same for secondary classes (64 combos currently) specifically for balancing purposes. But there's also augments from just about everywhere, giving a crazy amount of customization to the game. So it sounds like all options will be allowable as well as viable. The more specialized, the better - but that doesn't mean you'll be the most useful or the best damage/healing/whatever in all situations.

    Imagine you're a purely ice mage. You can do insane damage against people, and shield yourself at the same time! But, when you're out to kill a Frost Dragon who might be immune to Frost damage... well, maybe you should've brought that two handed sword instead?
  • georgeblackgeorgeblack Member
    edited June 26
    This is getting off topic. My main concern is that if every class has access to every weapon ability this means that weapons need to be given meaningful functions, otherwise everybody will just pick BiS.
    This has nothing to do with magic swords or magic bows.

    Eg, in another game sword and shield had:
    Gap closer
    Stun
    Debuffs
    Slow
    Low mp cost
    Increased defence
    Easier damage dealing than two handed or dual wield
    This made every fighter from every class, medium or heavy to pick sword/shield. Why? Because they could access it and it was BiS
  • mcstackersonmcstackerson Member, Braver of Worlds
    That's just a balance issue. We probably will have them and will need to figure out how to address them when they appear.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds
    Um. There isn't really a BiS when it comes to weapons in Ashes.
    Advanced weapons can have up to 5 weapon abilities and those weapon abilities can be added and changed by crafters.

    But, specific class abilities will be tied to specific weapons - a Tank can't Shield Bash if they're not wielding a shield... they might not be able to use Cover without a shield. A Ranger can't use Fleeting Shot or Sniper's Eye without a Bow.
    The Tank won't have Fleeting Shot or Sniper's Eye even if they wield a bow. And a Ranger won't have Shield Bash even if they wield a shield.
    Just because it's possible to wield any weapon doesn't mean it will always be optimal to wield a weapon not designed for your primary archetype.
  • So what do you guys think about a tank tank running around with spell book and cloth armour looking like a mage. really what is the point. Think having class like a mage with a large scope of weapons and gear to use would make more sense. Than you can wear any gear.

    As far as the frost mage using 2 handed sword, There are other two handed weapons. You may think this all fall into staffs, but there double tipped spears, single tipped spears, blunt staffs, and you if you want t to put magic into place. There could be rain bow colored ribbons. Each color representing a different effect. Ribbon is like a whip but made of cloth and energized by magic. Think those are bettter solutions than Two hand sword or Two handed Cross bow

    Given the time I could come up with ten different solutions to an alternative to a mage using a 2 handed sword. Same thing with a mage using a shield could come up with ten different things that would do the same thing. Spectral Shield. Fire Shield
    wall of force already in game. Spell that puts debuff on target and does less damage which would be just like having a shield. and so on. Entangle ment that causes target to miss 25% of the time or 25% damage reduction.

  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds
    Great, if the Tank likes to play that way. Especially if they have Mage as a secondary archetype.
    We'll have to see how effective a Tank is wielding a spellbook.
  • noemadnoemad Member
    Personally I don't like the whole every class can use every weapon thing. Especially the way they do it in ESO. I like there to be some differentiation. I like that people can look at my character and know his class by how he's fighting and what abilities he uses. It's part of the immersion for me. I picked my class for a reason so if a dragonknight using the greatsword has the exact same weapon abilities as a nightblade using the greatsword then what's the point of having different classes? That's why in ESO I stick to the class abilities most of the time. I usually have 3 or 4 of my abilities and my ultimate being class abilities with the other 1 or 2 being weapon abilities. It might be different if the weapons abilities were changed or modified by my characters class but for ESO that ain't so. Maybe Ashes will fix the things ESO got wrong.
  • georgeblackgeorgeblack Member
    edited June 27
    noemad wrote: »
    Personally I don't like the whole every class can use every weapon thing. Especially the way they do it in ESO. I like there to be some differentiation. I like that people can look at my character and know his class by how he's fighting and what abilities he uses. It's part of the immersion for me. I picked my class for a reason so if a dragonknight using the greatsword has the exact same weapon abilities as a nightblade using the greatsword then what's the point of having different classes? That's why in ESO I stick to the class abilities most of the time. I usually have 3 or 4 of my abilities and my ultimate being class abilities with the other 1 or 2 being weapon abilities. It might be different if the weapons abilities were changed or modified by my characters class but for ESO that ain't so. Maybe Ashes will fix the things ESO got wrong.

    Very good points.
    Class needs to be reflected.
    Nobody argues that weapons are tools and so it makes sense for a character to be able and equip them and use them, but I like seeing a guy and think "that's a nice looking DragonKnight or Assassin or Mage or whatever"

    Seing a guy in robes with a crossbow or heavy armor and a harry poter stick might be permited but it shouldnt work.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds
    noemad wrote: »
    Personally I don't like the whole every class can use every weapon thing. Especially the way they do it in ESO. I like there to be some differentiation. I like that people can look at my character and know his class by how he's fighting and what abilities he uses. It's part of the immersion for me. I picked my class for a reason so if a dragonknight using the greatsword has the exact same weapon abilities as a nightblade using the greatsword then what's the point of having different classes? That's why in ESO I stick to the class abilities most of the time. I usually have 3 or 4 of my abilities and my ultimate being class abilities with the other 1 or 2 being weapon abilities. It might be different if the weapons abilities were changed or modified by my characters class but for ESO that ain't so. Maybe Ashes will fix the things ESO got wrong.
    In Ashes, we will still be able to recognize class by class abilities. We won't recognize class by weapon-choice.
    Advanced weapons can be enchanted to have up to 5 weapon abilities, so it's unlikely that two mid-level Dragon Knights would have the exact same weapon abilities on their greatswords and even less likely that they would have the exact same weapon abilities as a Shadowblade's greatsword.

    Just get a crafter to add the unique set of weapon abilities you want on your weapon.
  • Well just to be fair to Ashes of Creation maybe they have a great way to implement no gear restrictions. Which brings me to my next point maybe someone could submit it as a question I already used up my one question on requesting air balloons.

  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds
    Ha! Requesting air balloons is a waste of a question, but... OK...
    What's the question you want to ask Steven regarding no gear restrictions?
  • noemadnoemad Member
    edited June 28
    Dygz wrote: »
    noemad wrote: »
    Personally I don't like the whole every class can use every weapon thing. Especially the way they do it in ESO. I like there to be some differentiation. I like that people can look at my character and know his class by how he's fighting and what abilities he uses. It's part of the immersion for me. I picked my class for a reason so if a dragonknight using the greatsword has the exact same weapon abilities as a nightblade using the greatsword then what's the point of having different classes? That's why in ESO I stick to the class abilities most of the time. I usually have 3 or 4 of my abilities and my ultimate being class abilities with the other 1 or 2 being weapon abilities. It might be different if the weapons abilities were changed or modified by my characters class but for ESO that ain't so. Maybe Ashes will fix the things ESO got wrong.
    In Ashes, we will still be able to recognize class by class abilities. We won't recognize class by weapon-choice.
    Advanced weapons can be enchanted to have up to 5 weapon abilities, so it's unlikely that two mid-level Dragon Knights would have the exact same weapon abilities on their greatswords and even less likely that they would have the exact same weapon abilities as a Shadowblade's greatsword.

    Just get a crafter to add the unique set of weapon abilities you want on your weapon.


    I'm looking forward to seeing all the different enchantments you can add to your weapons. I love any system that adds more ways to make your character stand out from others.
  • noemad wrote: »
    Dygz wrote: »
    noemad wrote: »
    Personally I don't like the whole every class can use every weapon thing. Especially the way they do it in ESO. I like there to be some differentiation. I like that people can look at my character and know his class by how he's fighting and what abilities he uses. It's part of the immersion for me. I picked my class for a reason so if a dragonknight using the greatsword has the exact same weapon abilities as a nightblade using the greatsword then what's the point of having different classes? That's why in ESO I stick to the class abilities most of the time. I usually have 3 or 4 of my abilities and my ultimate being class abilities with the other 1 or 2 being weapon abilities. It might be different if the weapons abilities were changed or modified by my characters class but for ESO that ain't so. Maybe Ashes will fix the things ESO got wrong.
    In Ashes, we will still be able to recognize class by class abilities. We won't recognize class by weapon-choice.
    Advanced weapons can be enchanted to have up to 5 weapon abilities, so it's unlikely that two mid-level Dragon Knights would have the exact same weapon abilities on their greatswords and even less likely that they would have the exact same weapon abilities as a Shadowblade's greatsword.

    Just get a crafter to add the unique set of weapon abilities you want on your weapon.


    I'm looking forward to seeing all the different enchantments you can add to your weapons. I love any system that adds more ways to make your character stand out from others.

    Again many games have tried to go this way only to fall victims to meta. I play against the meta but the majority of the player base is deeply disturbed by being forced in to it and it is not a healthy thing for the game.
    And it is important to try to prevent a game from making a mistake, even if you are not affected
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