The view from the outside: some constructive criticism, challenges and theory crafting examples

nightragnernightragner Member, Braver of Worlds
edited July 9 in General Discussion
Edited please look for the "**" for the TL:DR version or if you are confused by what i posted ask me in Discord and also now that i NEED to say this my points are from people not full committed like the backers and fans!!

(Disclaimer: These are topics voiced in the community but not pushed):
These topics discussed here are questions, worries, feedback and criticism of the current AoC team, game and ecosystem, My goal here is not in insight drama or cause conflict but to open a dialog that constructively gets somewhere and that these topics are not all a demand for action right now but once they are available to do so could they address these topics!.

First i want to express my gratitude to Steven, Intrepid staff and community for all the amazing things they have done but...

CLASS INFO - "A class is a lens from which we view the game" (Challenge)
Intrepid needs to release something about the classes in question (even if only the 8 Prime Archetypes) be that in game, a video or we would even settle for a blog post explaining there functions, differences and even mechanics when and if possible and than also possibly a small view into the class combo system even if only using 1 combo as an example once they are at a state to show us please.

** This is a request for information on the 8 prime classes once at that point where it is possible to do so **
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CLASS NAMES - (Theory crafting & Challenge)
I understand that it is early in the development cycle and we in the community do not have the full picture yet BUT as someone that has played many MMOs and D&D type Role play games you should know that a name is important to a player, That a name should be able to tell a story, Have notoriety (be that good or bad) or Best describe an entity? With that Being said i would like to ask Steven and the intrepid team to explain the current class names to give the community a better understanding as many are either confused or unhappy with the name due to a lack of context, please could you possibly be open to given the community a Blog or story for these names OR be open to them being changed in favour of the ones the community have suggested in @tugowar post ONLY as a "last resort" and also with my "suggested names" as this is all they are but a suggestion of what im asking for the current names and here is an example and a request for your description (more suggestions in image):

Current class name: Shadow Disciple = Disciple - "Someone that follows the path of another" and
Shadow - "follow and observe closely and secretly" Or "opposition counterpart" = Best Definitions i could find.
Vs
Suggested class name: Monk = Cleric trained with improved knowledge of the anatomy that fights with focused calculation to strike critical with divine guidance.

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Current class combo names:
AoC_Class_Names_-_Current.png

Theory crafted suggested names (THESE are for reference ONLY):
AoC_Class_Names_-_Suggested.png
(Some class combo names feel they are in reverse =ie Knight Vs Dreadnought)

** This is a Challenge and request to team not to change the name but to show why they picked these if they are in Steven's own word "Already set in stone" than i just ask for a little details on each and ONLY change as a "last resort" if the community voice more concern which would be after explaining them.**
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ROLE AND CLASS CONFUSION - (Criticism & Challenge)
This is a personal issue that i have now found others that share in my dislike and conflict of a role to be used as a class name (That being "Tank") and that it in turn confuses people people into thinking many thing such as - Thinking that all this class can to is "Tank" damage but do no real damage (as does in many other games), That people seem to think that by adding tank to the secondary class combo that it somehow allows that person to "Tank" a dungeon. I suggest changing the class name from "Tank" to "Defender" or "Guardian" BUT i am also up for changing the name of the Roles to something like the acronym S. A. D. = Support / Attack / Defend away from the "Gaming holy trinity".

** This one is a request to either Change or further explain why "Tank" should be a class and role**
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CONTROL THE NARRATIVE - (Criticism & Challenge)
This one is a suggestion, request and challenge to the team to keep the communication open even if what is being said is "Sorry nothing to show yet but please understand we are still working hard on these problems with X feature" OR explain some of the issues you are have having with the Development of a mechanic, But if that is not something you are able to talk about so that and offer the option to answer some other questions not answered yet or talk about a new blog post like Nodes, Classes, Professions, mechanics and functions that can be further explained that can also help gather more feedback on those topics!. Good example here is to do a blog post on say fishing once the core of it is in the game or why it was taken out.

**This is just a request to share more information not based in lore that is NOT just Development info**
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REFERRAL SYSTEM - (Theory crafting, Criticism & Challenge)
This is a simple topic many request in passing but are not will to push farther for fear of punishments but here goes: PLEASE reset everyone's referral and give everyone the chance to either give it back to that person in support or change it to someone that they were playing to give to in the first place. This comes from the topic that some feel "cheated" after registering via Embedded links, TinyURL's and google ad programs and now feel that Intrepid are fine with these questionable practices to the point where some may not support, play or even turn others away from the game and this is a damage to PR but also will give those people the option to support the ones that they wanted to do in the first place if you do the reset and give everyone the option to fix it. (Those that got the referrals have nothing to worry about if they earned them the right way).

** This is a request to offer something in a public capacity that does not spam CS with requests to remove the referral as i know from people in this community asked for pack refunds due to who they were supporting and dont want to.**
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PROMISES AND DEADLINES - (Criticism & Challenge)
This is a big topic in the community that needs to be fixed BUT also kept if a promise is made with game deadlines missed as well as videos, blogs and the directors letters if content if not ready to be punished or waiting on something please explain that before the time for that event as it feels unprofessional to some and to others like more bad things are happening to cause these issues and most of this can be fixed with better communication and only talking about something once it is set in stone. > This does not include just being on the discord if the team is "Radio silent" on Development for week of more.

** This is a challenge to keep development communication line open with the community even if only a report at the end of the stream explaining why deadlines were missed and what new goals have been set to aim for "No promises but trying".**
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Hope this is seen by the dev's thanks for reading! <3

P.S. PLEASE DO NOT FIGHT, ABUSE, ATTACK OR SHAME ANYONE THAT DOES NOT SHARE YOU OPINIONS!.

Comments

  • seaberseaber Member
    Those class tables look like 1960s abstract art and are painful to read.
  • nagashnagash Member, Leader of Men
    I will just be happy to see the base classes at this point
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    The dead do not squabble as this land’s rulers do. The dead have no desires, petty jealousies or ambitions. A world of the dead is a world at peace
  • damoklesdamokles Member
    I have to say, that i feel the same way as @nagash...
    We know nothing about Bards, Summoners, Fighters, and Rogues skill or gameplay-wise (except something once said around 1-2 years ago)
    Names can be changed close to game release and can wait jntil the beta phase.

    I would also like to see some better clarification on the official site. Maybe some deadlines, and a note under the buy button that says clearly that the game is currently not available to play.
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  • arzosaharzosah Member, Leader of Men
    I'm not sure they should have gone through and made official names for all the class combinations in the first place. It's not uncommon for MMO communities to come up with and settle on the names of builds, and they probably would have made more sense.
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  • shoklenshoklen Member
    You never know... Prerelease there was a pretty big backlash over the class name "Wizard" For Star Wars the old republic mmo.. and it got changed.

    That said... i'd just settle for an in-game screenshot of an Orc... Something... Anything...
  • karthoskarthos Member, Braver of Worlds
    edited July 8
    Why are we still trying to get the names of the classes changed?

    I really don't understand this level of arrogance that people feel they are entitled to name something in a game they haven't made themselves simply because they want it to have that name for "reasons".

    This is like demanding your neighbor rename their baby because you don't like the name Wesley and think he looks more like a Ralph.

    In my opinion this does nothing but erode the community's ability to voice critisim because if we are stooping to bitching about the names of classes, we'll just bitch about anything just for the sake of it, right?

    Considering also on this list is the complaint we don't know much about the classes, I'm further confused why people feel they know better about the class with such little understanding of them.

    Ultimately, this seems so insignificant, yet is constantly brought up, it actually hurts the community's credibility to be able to express actual critisim.


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  • azathothazathoth Member, Braver of Worlds
    When IS soldifies what they want the classes to do they will likely share that info with us. I am also okay with the current class nomenclature, but it does feel like the name "Tank" was not as well thought out as the others. Understanding the augmentation aspect of the secondary class would help a lot in this discussion, but a lot of that is still unknown.

    As for the narrative, I am a fan of what they have been showing us and not in the group that feels they need more, deserve more, or simply want more. A lot of those wants/needs/desires will likely be answered before release.

    I think a lot of people were bamboozled by the flood of links to Ashes that turned out to be referrals. However, that is not IS fault. Resetting everyone's and hoping to get them back is, imo, a far fetched idea. Nobody would be required to resubmit a referral, so its very possible a lot of people would loose referrals even though they were gained in an appropriate way. People should be paying attention to where any link on the internet takes them.

    The last point seems counter intuitive to the 4th for me. Members want more information and promises but get inflamed when they cant meet those deadlines or that information changes. Breaking a promise sucks, and I am sure IS wouldn't do it just cause.

    I like all the constructive criticism threads and understand many of the concerns. However, being this early in game development I find it odd everyone wants to throw in opinions and options and criticisms. If this was the next AAA MMORPG and the most anyone had wasa clip from E3, would the community be demanding to see more? Maybe.

    Yes, the community does deserve a voice. That voice should not, necessarily, trump IS vision. Most of us are here because we liked what they pitched.

    As someone who helped fund the KS, I am aware I was not buying rights to the information, concepts, or development notes created by IS for Ashes.
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    +1 Skull & Crown metal coin
  • nagashnagash Member, Leader of Men
    I really don't care what they are called really as long as they fit the theme they are trying to sell
    2mgwkfk.gif

    The dead do not squabble as this land’s rulers do. The dead have no desires, petty jealousies or ambitions. A world of the dead is a world at peace
  • ravudharavudha Member
    edited July 9
    Given how many class names are compound words (or even single words) that clearly tie to themes of their corresponding archetypes, I'm honestly baffled by the request for the devs to have to explain them further.
  • dygzdygz Member, Braver of Worlds
    1: Game dev schedules are not deadlines - nor are they promises.
    2: It seems strange to call a class an Illusionist when we don't even know if that combo will be able to cast illusions.
    3: While some of the dev names for classes do seem clunky, we need to know the abilities and augments for each class to determine alternative names that fit.
  • shoklenshoklen Member
    edited July 9
    A class named "Tank" is a little odd.. I think "ArchWizard" bothers me more though.. There is nothing wrong with calling it "Archmage" as it has been classically know by in the history of fantasy.. Mage -> Mage -> Archmage.. Works for me..

    it is their game, so I'm good with whatever. I'm not calling for action or anything.
  • wanderingmistwanderingmist Member, Founder
    I honestly don't care too much about the official names of the classes, since the community will inevitably make up their own names and abbreviations when the game launches.
  • insomniainsomnia Member
    They released some information early on. About tanks having walls they can place and some possible ways it can be changed. Being able to pull mobs with a hook/chain. They talked about warriors having charge. If they picked rogue they could change it so they went into stealth when they charged. If they picked wizard, charge could become a teleport. They have to figure out stuff, then actualy make it work.
    Be patient kid
  • nightragnernightragner Member, Braver of Worlds
    edited July 10
    insomnia wrote: »
    They released some information early on. About tanks having walls they can place and some possible ways it can be changed. Being able to pull mobs with a hook/chain. They talked about warriors having charge. If they picked rogue they could change it so they went into stealth when they charged. If they picked wizard, charge could become a teleport. They have to figure out stuff, then actualy make it work.
    Be patient kid

    I am patient and to everyone else that said something to the tone of "I can wait" my point was not for you or me im a backer it is for the many that are asking what going on as they were here when Steven suggested showing us info on these classes (in the form of a blog) over 12 months ago but then didn't but did not explain why lending to those that unfortunately want to use these open issues to try push people away from the games, as an example of what you said and many saw the question was "if they are not willing to talk about or share this info then how much has or is being changed?" we have no come back until the team addresses this... Everything in my post is for Once an item is ready and not the section as a whole example:
    IF Tank is ready talk about it and do a blog dont wait for ALL classes to ready to show them as that might not be until Alpha 2.

    (All of us will wait that long but WE are NOT the entire player base but a small portion of it!)

    Again to double down on this But people are pushing these topic as a way to push people away from the AoC/APOC to other games and im just hoping we can be "drip fed" info that can counter this!
  • azathothazathoth Member, Braver of Worlds
    The game will have a surge of interest on release regardless. Likely after an actual release date is posted the forums will blow up. Maybe not, but I would find that weird.

    IS should not feel obligated to keeping the I up train going for another year. They should spend the last 3 months before release spamming the hell out of it.

    Also, if people are making effort to draw the attention of would be players elsewhere, that's fine. I will likely play a few or more new games between now and the release. That doesn't mean I won't play when released.

    IS and the development of Ashes is not a democracy. There are no wins for the majority over the minority or pandering to one or the other. They will, hopefully, stay true to their cause and give us information when they are comfortable with putting it out.

    The OP is now, or was and I missed it, spun as a 'please tell us when you have info,' type of Q&A. I tend to think that IS was probably going to do that anyways.
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    +1 Skull & Crown metal coin
  • insomniainsomnia Member
    But from what i recall hearing in the last stream, Steven said they had to hold back with information, because it had backfired on them
  • nightragnernightragner Member, Braver of Worlds
    insomnia wrote: »
    But from what i recall hearing in the last stream, Steven said they had to hold back with information, because it had backfired on them

    Some info yes that should not be shared BUT im not asking for them to open up and say EVERYTHING just that once something is ready and can be share (say if it is final) do so,

    The Dev Diaries is a good way to go about it just like the streams and the Letter but just with more detailed content sometimes and the people that were upset was just cause they didnt get what they wanted!

    I mean i would love for the Tank to be Replaced by Druid in the list but i dont think that will happen just like i dont even think they read my post but either way it is still a talking point.
  • dygzdygz Member, Braver of Worlds
    edited July 11
    Well, first we are getting more info on the Nodes. That has been a bit slow... but...better than nothing.
    We should be getting some articles on primary archetypes after that, but... at this rate, that will take us into 2020 and we might already be in MMORPG Alpha but the time the article on the final archetype drops.
    :tongue:
  • tugowartugowar Member, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty
    dygz wrote: »
    Well, first we are getting more info on the Nodes. That has been a bit slow... but...better than nothing.
    We should be getting some articles on primary archetypes after that, but... at this rate, that will take us into 2020 and we might already be in MMORPG Alpha but the time the article on the final archetype drops.
    :tongue:

    Or the content drop rate is timed with a hint towards when Alpha 1 drops.
  • dygzdygz Member, Braver of Worlds
    Hmmn. Now that you mention it.
    Could be that they concocted a bunch of articles for Apoc, expecting it to launch sooner... so haven't gotten around to writing the class articles for the MMORPG yet.
    I wouldn't be surprised to see a bunch of Apoc info drop soon, if we're going to be jumping back into Apoc before the summer is over.
  • insomniainsomnia Member
    insomnia wrote: »
    But from what i recall hearing in the last stream, Steven said they had to hold back with information, because it had backfired on them

    Some info yes that should not be shared BUT im not asking for them to open up and say EVERYTHING just that once something is ready and can be share (say if it is final) do so,

    The Dev Diaries is a good way to go about it just like the streams and the Letter but just with more detailed content sometimes and the people that were upset was just cause they didnt get what they wanted!

    I mean i would love for the Tank to be Replaced by Druid in the list but i dont think that will happen just like i dont even think they read my post but either way it is still a talking point.

    I can emagine there are reasons for them to not have a druid in the game. Maybe because they don't want to have shapechanges. It is harder to think of class combinations with it, both where it is the primary and secondary class. Have in mind, that it is 15 combinations. I don't think the tank class should be removed
  • nightragnernightragner Member, Braver of Worlds
    dygz wrote: »
    Hmmn. Now that you mention it.
    Could be that they concocted a bunch of articles for Apoc, expecting it to launch sooner... so haven't gotten around to writing the class articles for the MMORPG yet.
    I wouldn't be surprised to see a bunch of Apoc info drop soon, if we're going to be jumping back into Apoc before the summer is over.

    and you could be right and by delaying the game due to current issues that had a knock on effect delaying the info that would have come out.... that is a good way of looking at it.

    i do admit i was disappointed when Steven "Summoner in January " and it never came But i also understood delays happen but THAT was a while ago now so if the info is ready in a blog form (and upto date with changes made since) then i and many would like to see it Vs when the class is Available in A2 you know?
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