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Stats and item attributes create a lot of data driven problems that need third party tools to solve.

OrcLuckOrcLuck Member, Braver of Worlds, Alpha One
edited July 2019 in General Discussion
I don't want to have to go to excel spreadsheets or some third party software (or someones website) to improve my performance with the game.

How will ashes plan on addressing the vast complexity that can come with very granular items and stat builds?

I've found that the genre of card games has come a long way to help the uninitiated or unskilled have a handle on how to make effective and fun decks that achieve player driven goals. How can mmo's improve on how they help players chart what builds they've made and or what items they should use to achieve their varied desires?

Ultimately the stats and items can only support so many optimal styles of play, but charting your path through these very data driven systems can be confusing and if you have a goal in mind its often hard to figure out how best to achieve it, without relying on external sources for help.

Usually the stats are a very data driven and for good reason; balance... exploration of what character's can achieve in pve or pvp combat is left up to the players and some QA, but generally that data is only collected behind the scenes. So players whom perform poorly don't know what to improve, and those whom perform well, have no incentive to share.

Then that data is tested, collected and charted external from the game, and what's optimal is found, and then players develop different meta's of builds with that data. Then to the exclusion of low tier play, the game is balanced, and people are left scratching their heads as to why, while the already equipped are racing past the starting gate, to the next batch of data driven testing.

Only the top players are in the know of that data. If you're at all connected to these external sources, your leaps and bounds more effective then those blindly playing the game.

Data driven tools have shown up in other genres like in in DOTA 2 where there's an entirely optional subscription to have access to a data parsing player guiding tool.

I think serving players for free would be optimal, but giving them an option to pay for is still preferable because more players can effectively participate in communal activities, and feel that they are making a valuable contribution toward their goals.
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Comments

  • KarthosKarthos Member, Braver of Worlds, Alpha One
    Paying for this would be seen as Pay To Win by many.
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  • AzryilAzryil Member, Leader of Men, Alpha One
    I don't see any issue with using third party websites or spreadsheets to track and calculate game related data. From my experience MMO communities will congregate around third party websites to share their theory crafting on how to design in game builds. I don't see a lot of reason to add tools into the game when it's so easy to share through a third party online forum.
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  • karthos wrote: »
    Paying for this would be seen as Pay To Win by many.

    It will probably occur regardless when third parties start power leveling services like they have in BDO and possibly most other MMOs. Sadly, there will never be a way to completely stop some Pay To Win options out there.

    @zomnivore I normally like to do my own theorycrafting and spreadsheets which then I distribute internally to my guild. I always find theorycrafting to be a fun part of all MMOs for min/max builds which then reveals weaknesses leading to newer builds! It's only a matter of time when youtube or twitch players find something successful and get swarmed with questions about their build. I hope the crafting mechanics in this game give us quite a few acceptable options on how to itemize for your specific class and playstyle vs other games where you just get stuck with whatever you get.
  • OrcLuckOrcLuck Member, Braver of Worlds, Alpha One
    edited July 2019
    Players already opt to pay for this content by supporting third parties whom invest in websites, and do the work, and support themselves with an ad driven network or through donations... whom do the work for them. I don't want or need to empower a third party to do data collection that's already part of the process the devs do, to track game balance. In fact I find investing in this data collection tool more beneficial for the game because we can be sure that the data collection of the company is up to snuff, and they have all the information in house to solve problems.

    I've also seen third party websites host adware and spyware that eventually comes as a result of letting more lucrative ad-services onto the site.

    Let alone the sites that require you give them your data via a sign in so you can start testing builds.

    Enough is enough, just put it in the game as a feature. There's a market for this information, and all you're doing is losing money.

    This isn't something any player or company can opt out of either. There are always going to be data aggregate sites.

    There is always going to be someone data mining, someone profiting off of this and letting it affect the game, regardless of if, its pay to win or not.

    Scoffing and saying its pay to win, and you won't do it, simply empowers third parties to do so without competition. It leaves players at the mercy of the information brokers.
  • KarthosKarthos Member, Braver of Worlds, Alpha One
    zomnivore wrote: »
    Players already opt to pay for this content by supporting third parties whom invest in websites, and do the work, and support themselves with an ad driven network or through donations... whom do the work for them. I don't want or need to empower a third party to do data collection that's already part of the process the devs do, to track game balance. In fact I find investing in this data collection tool more beneficial for the game because we can be sure that the data collection of the company is up to snuff, and they have all the information in house to solve problems.

    I've also seen third party websites host adware and spyware that eventually comes as a result of letting more lucrative ad-services onto the site.

    Let alone the sites that require you give them your data via a sign in so you can start testing builds.

    Enough is enough, just put it in the game as a feature. There's a market for this information, and all you're doing is losing money.

    This isn't something any player or company can opt out of either. There are always going to be data aggregate sites.

    There is always going to be someone data mining, someone profiting off of this and letting it affect the game, regardless of if, its pay to win or not.

    Scoffing and saying its pay to win, and you won't do it, simply empowers third parties to do so without competition. It leaves players at the mercy of the information brokers.

    I dunno where you got that many words out of what I said.

    I can only assume you posted this to get feedback on the idea, which I provided. I did not scoff, I did not say it was "bad" I simply pointed out a possible reaction by members of the community to this idea.

    You don't need to react like someone is attacking you every time they have a different perspective on something.
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  • OrcLuckOrcLuck Member, Braver of Worlds, Alpha One
    I don't see how this is a reaction to anything you said? You brought up that its considered pay to win. I think I just pointed out the facts. What's being seen as an emotional reaction is just me typing normally. I didn't take anything you said personally. I'm just enthusiastic about gaming.
  • KarthosKarthos Member, Braver of Worlds, Alpha One
    edited July 2019
    zomnivore wrote: »
    I don't see how this is a reaction to anything you said? You brought up that its considered pay to win. I think I just pointed out the facts. What's being seen as an emotional reaction is just me typing normally. I didn't take anything you said personally. I'm just enthusiastic about gaming.

    Then let me be blunt.

    How you write sucks.

    You don't tell me I can't "scoff and say it's pay to win" and then state I said something I didn't without coming off quite defensive.
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  • OrcLuckOrcLuck Member, Braver of Worlds, Alpha One
    karthos wrote: »
    zomnivore wrote: »
    I don't see how this is a reaction to anything you said? You brought up that its considered pay to win. I think I just pointed out the facts. What's being seen as an emotional reaction is just me typing normally. I didn't take anything you said personally. I'm just enthusiastic about gaming.

    Then let me be blunt.

    How you write sucks.

    You don't tell me I can't "scoff and day it's pay to win" and then saying I said something I didn't came off quite defensive.

    I'm literally telling you that, as far as you're concerned I was ignoring you, and addressing the hypothetical reaction of the company.

    If you need to be upset because of how I wrote, thats up to you.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Alpha One
    edited July 2019
    This, to me, is like expecting the makers of a checkers board to also publish multiple books to help teach strategies.
    Some players will make spreadsheets, regardless. And modders will make mods, regardless.

    I'm not expecting the devs to make a wiki, either.

    If people have to rely on this data in order to win sieges and successfully defend/attack caravans or to become mayors of Metros, something is wrong with the game besides the devs not providing raw data to the players.
  • KarthosKarthos Member, Braver of Worlds, Alpha One
    dygz wrote: »
    This, to me, is like expecting the makers of a checkers board to also publish multiple books to help teach strategies.
    Some players will make spreadsheets, regardless. And modders will make mods, regardless.

    I'm not expecting the devs to make a wiki, either.

    But Dygz, I need my checkers strat guides !!
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  • OrcLuckOrcLuck Member, Braver of Worlds, Alpha One
    I disagree. This is games as a service design, vrs games as a product.
  • OrcLuckOrcLuck Member, Braver of Worlds, Alpha One
    edited July 2019
    ...You do know there's literally cheaters in competitive chess and checkers right? That there is literally a way to pay to win? Just pay to use the best bots to play the game.

    I'm exasperated by you snowflakes. Leave.
  • KarthosKarthos Member, Braver of Worlds, Alpha One
    zomnivore wrote: »
    ...You do know there's literally cheaters in competitive chess and checkers right? That there is literally a way to pay to win? Just pay to use the best bots to play the game.

    I'm exasperated by you snowflakes. Leave.

    I mean, this is what I was talking about in my reply. Dygz makes a good point and you react with name calling...

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  • OrcLuckOrcLuck Member, Braver of Worlds, Alpha One
    My second post was in direct reply to your insult. I didn't resort to name calling until you bothered to spew on my thread your personal frustrations.
  • KarthosKarthos Member, Braver of Worlds, Alpha One
    Please explain further so I understand how you're upset.
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  • OrcLuckOrcLuck Member, Braver of Worlds, Alpha One
    I've just gone and taken the liberty to report the thread of our interactions. I don't need to waste further time on you.
  • neuroguyneuroguy Member
    edited July 2019
    Complexity that requires spreadsheets in an mmo is good imo. Looking at extreme ends of the spectrum, on one end you just have a single gear score that tells you if this item is an upgrade or not while on the other extreme end is something like PoE with an ever expanding list of stats that apply to different skills in complicated ways.

    I want more stats than just agility, strength and intelligence for richness in gear and specialization of character. But PoE for example has gotten so complicated they have hired the guy behind the most popular 3rd party app to make sense of all the stats for adapting something more official.

    In the "what would you add to AoC" thread, someone had the cool idea of having "training dummies" but with dps meter functionalities. I think this is brilliant. If you could have some interface or UI with training dummies where you can for example set timers on how long dps will be applied, adjust dummy defensive stats etc and have a nice breakdown of where your damage came from, time spells were off cooldown etc it would be a superb addition to the game. Not only would it allow for theory-crafting in game, but it would also allow players to practice rotations and prepare for various fights. Given the potential rarity of world bosses, lack of fast travel etc, having some tool to try things out would I think also benefit player's sense of preparation and reduce frustration of having to bash their heads against some boss over and over with long travel distances and broken equipment.

    If anyone is worried about the powerful monopolizing this information (which I think is fine and should be allowed though) there could be a high-score list of sorts for some pre-set training dummy settings where people can check out how the top dps of a given class is acquired. Again though, personally I think hoarding info like that should be fine so maybe this could be an optional setting (to be visible on high scores). This would also allow for the devs to catch bugs and balance things much more easily, as well as providing players with an easy way to report such things as well. The data could be exported or simply conveyed with screenshots.

    In line with what @karthos said, AoC should NOT provide such a tool in a paid manner. It would definitely fall within P2W and should be provided (or not provided) to all in a uniform manner.
  • OrcLuckOrcLuck Member, Braver of Worlds, Alpha One
    When you create a system with a lot of complexity it gets more people playing at a higher level when you boost their ability to interact meaningfully.

    I don't disagree with the idea that it should be free, I just want the cost to be supported in the base price.

    Magic the gathering has a lot of complexity and is one of the best games ever made, and such to the point that they're having trouble even digitizing the game into something people want to watch.

    The problem with that level of complexity isn't that its complex, its that the onus on you, if you want more people to play, and play it well, is that you need to teach them effectively, or they will remain inept.
  • Wandering MistWandering Mist Moderator, Member, Founder, Alpha One
    Even if Intrepid did create some kind of function as you describe, it wouldn't stop the players from doing a similar (and better) job of it for free. The simple fact is that often the players are much better at the game than the developers are. They spend a lot more time playing the game and will often discover things that the developers never realise existed.

    That's why companies like Blizzard get top guilds to test their raids for them, because the Blizzard employees just aren't skilled enough as players to kill the bosses they create.The best they can do to test mythic raids internally is to give all the player characters damage immunity buffs to make sure the fight plays out smoothly and get rid of any major bugs. That's fine up to a point but there is no way of internally testing the tuning of a boss, which is why so many bosses arrive under or over-tuned.

    Just like class guides, this is something better left to the players who have more experience and knowledge than the developers.

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  • AzathothAzathoth Member, Braver of Worlds, Alpha One
    I plan on improving my character's performance in the game by:

    1) Playing it
    2) Paying attention when I play it
    3) Noticing when I do better or not as good
    4) Understanding why I am doing better or not as good
    5) Working on why I am doing better or not as good

    But you know, I like to play the game and explore from the character's perspective. It's not for everyone.
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  • OrcLuckOrcLuck Member, Braver of Worlds, Alpha One
    edited July 2019
    @wanderingmist I disagree that they would be able to do it better. Optimally they wouldn't. Optimally the best players would be scouted for QA and there would be enough of them in QA to inform the designers of what needs tweaking, and with enough insight into the general playstyle of the other gamers to keep things fun for everyone.
    azathoth wrote: »
    I plan on improving my character's performance in the game by:

    1) Playing it
    2) Paying attention when I play it
    3) Noticing when I do better or not as good
    4) Understanding why I am doing better or not as good
    5) Working on why I am doing better or not as good

    But you know, I like to play the game and explore from the character's perspective. It's not for everyone.

    See that's what I want. I want the game to be a cohesive place where you don't have to go anywhere else to do these activities well.

    Ideally it wouldn't be about hard stats like dps or ability cycles, but once you get to top tier play, and where people have a personal investment in being the best, they're willing to pay for extra edges on their opponents. Whether its dual boxing or paying someone to grind stats for them.
  • KarthosKarthos Member, Braver of Worlds, Alpha One
    zomnivore wrote: »
    @wanderingmist I disagree that they would be able to do it better. Optimally they wouldn't. Optimally the best players would be scouted for QA and there would be enough of them in QA to inform the designers of what needs tweaking, and with enough insight into the general playstyle of the other gamers to keep things fun for everyone.
    azathoth wrote: »
    I plan on improving my character's performance in the game by:

    1) Playing it
    2) Paying attention when I play it
    3) Noticing when I do better or not as good
    4) Understanding why I am doing better or not as good
    5) Working on why I am doing better or not as good

    But you know, I like to play the game and explore from the character's perspective. It's not for everyone.

    See that's what I want. I want the game to be a cohesive place where you don't have to go anywhere else to do these activities well.

    Ideally it wouldn't be about hard stats like dps or ability cycles, but once you get to top tier play, and where people have a personal investment in being the best, they're willing to pay for extra edges on their opponents. Whether its dual boxing or paying someone to grind stats for them.

    Are you advocating the idea that you should pay others to help you progress in the game?
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  • Wandering MistWandering Mist Moderator, Member, Founder, Alpha One
    edited July 2019
    zomnivore wrote: »
    @wanderingmist I disagree that they would be able to do it better. Optimally they wouldn't. Optimally the best players would be scouted for QA and there would be enough of them in QA to inform the designers of what needs tweaking, and with enough insight into the general playstyle of the other gamers to keep things fun for everyone.

    Oh they will do it better, trust me. Just from a sheer amount of time put into the game, the players have the clear advantage. Games devs don't actually play the game during working hours, and have limited time to play outside of that. QA testers don't really play the game either, not in the way we do. When a QA tester is working they are generally given a list of items to check for bugs, and they do those simple tasks over and over and over searching for inconsistencies and bugs, then writing detailed reports on what they find.

    The amount of time games developers spend actually playing the game is miniscule compared to how much time we will spend playing. As for the studio hiring the top 1% of players for QA testing, hardly any studio does this, simply because the skill set is completely different. As I said above, when you QA test a game you aren't really playing it. You don't need to be the best player in the world to successfully QA test a game.

    EDIT: The only game I know of that actively hires players and pays them to play the game normally is League of Legends, who have a bunch of shoutcasters in their e-sports divisions. These guys play a lot of the game themselves because they need to know as much about the game as possible in order to do their commentary. These aren't QA testers though, far from it.
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  • OrcLuckOrcLuck Member, Braver of Worlds, Alpha One
    I wouldn't know, about hiring practices. I assume though that with good enough data interpretation they wouldn't need to hire the players.
  • Wandering MistWandering Mist Moderator, Member, Founder, Alpha One
    zomnivore wrote: »
    I wouldn't know, about hiring practices. I assume though that with good enough data interpretation they wouldn't need to hire the players.

    There is a huge difference between data and actual gameplay. That's why parsing websites and mods are never truly accurate, because there are so many things that can affect gameplay moment to moment.
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  • AzathothAzathoth Member, Braver of Worlds, Alpha One
    "Ideally it wouldn't be about hard stats like dps or ability cycles, but once you get to top tier play, and where people have a personal investment in being the best, they're willing to pay for extra edges on their opponents. Whether its dual boxing or paying someone to grind stats for them."

    This, to me, is sad and the epitome of basement dweller. :disappointed:
    Willing to pay for extra edges = not being good enough on merit
    paying someone to grind stats = paying to play game + paying for someone to play your game

    When did people start paying people to play games for them? Wtf?

    It's a video game, one that doesn't currently have a legitimate league like other e-sports. Not really sure how Ashes could go e-sports, but people are always desperate to seek fame for their past times and hobbies.
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  • DamoklesDamokles Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Wait a second: isnt it normal to have spreadsheets about your games? I do that since i was 12 for all my games....
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  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    zomnivore wrote: »
    Only the top players are in the know of that data. If you're at all connected to these external sources, your leaps and bounds more effective then those blindly playing the game.
    There are essentially three types of data that can exist in an MMO (or anything, really).

    There is third party data, which is any website you may go to.

    There is second party data, which is any data the game provides you.

    Then there is first party data, which is any data you have collected yourself.

    Everyone has the same level of access to third and second party data. The only difference between what you know and what I know - assuming we both want to know enough - is in the data we have discovered ourselves.

    Personally, I want to see a solid suite of tools in game on launch day for players to be more easily able to discover as much data as they can. This puts more people on a more level playing field.
  • AzathothAzathoth Member, Braver of Worlds, Alpha One
    "Personally, I want to see a solid suite of tools in game on launch day for players to be more easily able to discover as much data as they can. This puts more people on a more level playing field."

    I think the opposite is true. It would put people on a more level playing field if everyone did this. For those players that wouldn't use the tool, or feel like the tool was too complicated, or didn't have time to use the tool because their play time is limited, it would put them at a disadvantage.
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    +1 Skull & Crown metal coin
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    azathoth wrote: »
    "Personally, I want to see a solid suite of tools in game on launch day for players to be more easily able to discover as much data as they can. This puts more people on a more level playing field."

    I think the opposite is true. It would put people on a more level playing field if everyone did this. For those players that wouldn't use the tool, or feel like the tool was too complicated, or didn't have time to use the tool because their play time is limited, it would put them at a disadvantage.

    People will work this out whether there is something in game or not. Those people will have an advantage.

    At least if there is an in game tool, everyone has the opportunity to easily collect what ever data they feel is applicable to them.

    Putting in a suite of tools doesn't make every thing even for every one, it simply makes things more even for more people than would be the case with nothing built in.
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