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Small Guild Leader NO GO on Current Alt Policy

skafftarussskafftaruss Member, Phoenix Initiative, Hero of the People, Kickstarter, Alpha One
AOC Wiki stipulates that Alts on the same account can join different guilds. Intrigue, espionage and intelligence gathering is a legitimate aspect of the game.

In other words, and hypothetically, if I intend on having a small guild, an uber guild can take 30 alts and become members. Then that guild is subject to a hijack, member vacuum, or take over during elections of those 30 alts? My issue is that if evasion is such a big deal on Discord and Forums, why foist this same burden on guild leaders of small guilds? And how can one tell IF the appropriate primary accounts are dedicated to a guild and not alts to be recognized as a guild? This makes me pause and may dissuade others from a) forming a small guild and b) having elections. The risks are too great to invest in hard work, spend money on kickstarter uber packages, with no modicum of risk mitigation. I hope the designers visit this legitimate concern. A spy is one thing, but a coordinated and simple take-over is another. What measures are in place to give the guild founders of a small guild a reasonable comfort level in preventing a devastating sabotage of a raid (where members quit) or a corporate take-over? If the answer is some obtuse non answer like it's risk and reward I say heck no. It's a lot harder to break or take over a big guild from the outside. For your consideration.

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Comments

  • JahlonJahlon Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha One
    Guilds don't have elections?
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    Make sure to check out Ashes 101
  • mcstackersonmcstackerson Member, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited July 2019
    Why would you put spies in a small guild? Generally, you don't put a spy in a guild for the sake of putting a spy in a guild.

    I've never been in a guild with rotating leadership. If you choose to use such a system and you let a spy take control then that's on you. I don't think IS needs to protect you from your flawed system.
  • mcstackersonmcstackerson Member, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    There is an obvious flaw in your system if a spy could take over. It's YOUR system and if you can't protect your guild from this issue then it's flawed. It is your choice to manage your guild in this manner, you should be the one to figure out how to prevent spies from taking it over.
  • neuroguyneuroguy Member
    edited July 2019
    You can only have 1 citizenship per account. You can just demand your members to have citizenship in your node of interest to accrue any power/ranking.
    Edit: this increases the likelihood that the toon is genuinely invested in your node and doesn't have a main somewhere else. Remember citizenship is kinda a big deal.

    Otherwise, it sounds like you are risk averse to corporate take-overs and your guild breaking up but those things will happen and they will never feel legitimate if they happen to you tbh. I mean, describe to me one situation in which you'd personally be ok with your guild being taken-over lol.
  • AzathothAzathoth Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    I like this idea.
    Maybe guilds should have investment periods where every new member has to work with the guild on a variety of levels before being accepted as a new member? Maybe guilds won't just take everyone to bolster ranks.

    If a small number of players have characters that make up a large portion of the guild, enough to be a majority, then maybe it should be their guild. They are obviously way more invested in it than other members.

    As for citizenship and alts in the same guild, all alts have the same citizenship, so that likely won't help talk this conspiracy off the edge. All this means is it's more likely all the alts would be in the same handful of guilds present in that node :smiley:
    This would be a good anti-spy technique, not full-proof, but good.

    I love the fact that someone is concerned with a small number of players making a large number of alts and just totally f*ing guilds. This might be the best way to keep a mega-guild alliance from actually occurring on the server (to me that would be a bonus). Also my favorite Ashes conspiracy theory to date!

    "The risks are too great to invest in hard work, spend money on kickstarter uber packages, with no modicum of risk mitigation. I hope the designers visit this legitimate concern."

    Ships already sailed here, kickstarter is over. I mean, that money has either already been spent or can't be spent on a KS.

    Also, I don't think the designers should worry themselves with this. The first time this happens all serious guilds will take in house efforts to prevent it.
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    +1 Skull & Crown metal coin
  • bloodprophetbloodprophet Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Never considered that guilds voted on leadership. Interesting way to do stuff.
    IS should not spend any resources on hindering this stuff in anyway. This all in house guild stuff. Most games have levels for different members and what they can access, guild bank and so forth. If you suspect foul play then don't let just anyone vote. It is your guild and your rules after all. Set boundaries and stick to them. Just cause someone joined your guild last week doesn't mean they should have a vote on leadership.
    But hey it's YOUR guild do what you want.
    Most people never listen. They are just waiting on you to quit making noise so they can.
  • DamoklesDamokles Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    It is way harder to plant any number of spies above 2-5 in a small guild. It would be easier to infiltrate giant guilds (300 members), but these major guilds always have a rigide leadership, meaning that a hostile takeover would be near impossible.

    There was that one player in EVE Online though, "the Judge", who stole all of his guilds assets.
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  • neuroguyneuroguy Member
    edited July 2019
    Not one thumbs-up from anyone for broaching, for what I think is legitimate concern from a small guild leader. I don't want AOC to take on the institutional guild norm. This is needle dicking around to find little things instead of positive solutions. I answered basic questions to get more experts telling me how screwed up my little guild is?

    Lol if that's your currency of choice, sure, I gave you one ;).

    Nobody is telling you your guild is screwed up, it's simply unconventional. Which is fine, but you can't demand the game to be built for you specifically.

    What is your optimal solution? Every character has an (alt) or (main) beside their name? How would one determine that? The guild can't ever be broken up? The leader cannot have another toon in another guild? There is no real solution because you're in the realm of human social interaction. Just like you can't demand people be your friends for moral reasons, you can't demand people to conduct themselves to your idea of fairness in your guild. You can set up rules and surround yourself with those who agree with you and uphold your rules, but that's personal choices and decisions, nothing IS can do for you buddy. But by all means, I'd love to hear a solution you'd be happy with, just keep in mind what you propose must be applied uniformly, it can't be super context dependent.
  • I was about to say if someone wants me to go home - I'm part of the squad. I've stated my case above. It's about unregulated alts (evasive) in a small guild. If folks can have alts vote in guild elections, then there's a reason for concern. Same with a bunch of alts intentionally usurping the small guild for a monopoly. Don't put it past these folks. I know it doesn't concern large classic hard core gamers. If this is the case, I need to pack it in, and join a big guild, and not waste my, or my member's time. Many thanks.

    You're just re-stating the problem you see. Ignore its validity, tell me a solution. Here I'll even help you: so you think alts shouldn't be able to vote. Then define an "alt" for me. How do you determine if a toon is an alt. Order of creation? Time played? Most money?
  • BLUF: Alts in small guilds is a NO GO. This from a small guild leader. The alt is stated in wiki. I don't know how we find out a toon is an alt. Hence, my question. It appears you may be able to answer these? I ask the question and some folks throw me a question. I'm hoping @jahlon can check into this instead of bickering? From my stand point I am upsetting the status-quo. Hence, let's see how this pans out. Best regards, Skaff.

    Meaning no disrespect, but you're being quite over-dramatic. This is neither profound nor existential. Small guilds like the one you describe exist in bunches, it's not that they are so rare people can't sympathize, people just don't demand protection from possible social consequences because it's not possible. This is your recognition of a problem that has no solution because it requires knowledge of the intention behind a player's actions. There is no definition of alt that can be uniformly applied. There is no piece of code IS can write to prevent some of the things you (validly) worry about. Hopefully you can find players that want a guild like you do, and hopefully you don't lose sleep over alts trying to take over your guild and can enjoy yourself. Cheers.
  • DamoklesDamokles Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    @skafftaruss
    I dont really see ANY reason for a major guild to infiltrate a smaller guild tbh. Guild unions are supposed to consist of max 3 guilds, it would be bad for a big guild to waste a slot for a small guild that would bring nothing else to the table (difference would be if the smaller could was a merchant or crafting guild with specialized and really rare item recepies)
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  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    I don't get the issue here.

    Very few games limit accounts to only being able to join one guild. EQ2 certainly didn't.

    If a guild holds regular elections for leadership positions, a "takeover" of some form is a real risk for them, and it a part of the consequences of such a system (we all know elections can sometimes go bad).

    There is no more of a risk of it happening in Ashes as there is of it happening in any other game.
  • unknownsystemerrorunknownsystemerror Member, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Can't wait for one of these run by someone who bought in at the right level for guild cloaks and barding to get taken over and to lose their stuff. They clarified long ago that once those items are assigned they are no longer the property of the individual, but of the guild. If you have decided to allow random people to take control of your guild through your own policies, that is on you. Just like Intrepid would have no control over some idiot sharing their account information, cause "hey bro, I can powerlevel your toon while you sleep for 29.99 sent to my Paypal, do eeeet!"
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  • AzathothAzathoth Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited July 2019
    I can see the concern, but I like it. I really do, but I am an advocate for chaos and plans going awry.

    @skafftaruss the only real solution I see, that should be reasonable for IS, is to divide a single vote (1) into the number of alts that have the option to vote related to the same account. This could also be done with voting for mayor (in the right node) along with buildings to construct and so on.

    If you have a small guild of buddies that like to take turns running the guild, make them a leadership council/pool. All players can vote for those characters only. If you want it to be more of a democracy^ than a republic, allow access to the council after x-number of years in the guild.

    I believe these should be things done, as others have said, in house.
    IS should not be responsible for helping you regulate how people act in your guild, friend or foe^. After all, there is nothing about Ashes that says you *have* to own a guild. Although the argument can be made you will likely *need* to be in a guild, it's not true. You and your buddies can do things as a team without Ashes having you listed as an official guild in the game (I think, I have yet to hear that you can't adventure with other peeps unless you are in a guild).

    If it was mandatory to own/operate/join a guild, I would be more apt to agree with you that IS should take a more hands on approach to regulating member actions.

    ^edits
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    +1 Skull & Crown metal coin
  • RavudhaRavudha Member
    edited July 2019
    It's an interesting hypothetical.

    At this point, I'm betting that any major damage people would want to do to another guild could be done more efficiently with their mains acting on information gathered by a single spy rather than pouring an immense amount of time and energy on numerous alts.
  • LyiatLyiat Member, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    You don't believe alts should have a vote in a system that doesn't exist. Because there's no system in the game in which people vote for a guild leader. Therefor, your problem doesn't exist inside the game mechanics. That's something you need to wrap your head around before you even begin to insist people resolve the issue for you.
  • KarthosKarthos Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    A pretty basic mainstay of MMOs is recruitment of members for raids and guilds.

    You solve this issue by recruitment and member management. If you're letting in 30 alts from another guild, that's 100% on you to determine they are alts and to kick them.

    I see this problem with guilds that mass recruit, throw invites randomly and who don't purge their inactive roster with some frequency.

    This issue is completely on the guild leader to manage.
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  • WololoWololo Member, Phoenix Initiative, Hero of the People, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    yep this is why you have applications
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  • JahlonJahlon Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha One
    Guilds don't have elections by game-mechanics.

    If you choose to have a rotating leadership and a guild leader gets elected and then takes over and does whatever they want with the guild, well I guess they are entitled to do that since they are in fact the guild leader.

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    Make sure to check out Ashes 101
  • KarthosKarthos Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    A definite game changer. A message to any small guild leader and democratic guild. A NO GO here from my perspective. Mischief is going to be AOC's undoing as it is a PVP and manipulators game. Break the game, seek loopholes, raid all from the fat of those that produce. Non-stability but I will try in the self-cleaning oven. Sad to see. Thanks J.

    Try the stuff with scrubbing bubbles
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  • LyiatLyiat Member, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    A definite game changer. A message to any small guild leader and democratic guild. A NO GO here from my perspective. Mischief is going to be AOC's undoing as it is a PVP and manipulators game. Break the game, seek loopholes, raid all from the fat of those that produce. Non-stability but I will try in the self-cleaning oven. Sad to see. Thanks J.

    What you call AoC's 'undoing' is the same thing that keeps fueling EVE Online and keeps it as one of the most compelling games in the genre. I for one hope that AoC will be able to produce the same legendary stories of betrayal and subversion that EVE does.
  • bloodprophetbloodprophet Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Or perhaps, your over thinking the whole problem.
    Why would someone want to take the time to take over and raid a smaller guilds bank? Seems like a lot of time and effort just for the lol's. Doesn't mean someone won't but personally from my perspective it sounds like you want IS to use resources to protect your guild from a might maybe could happen situation.
    They should leave as much stuff to player agency as they can. This is one of those things. People do weird things sometimes. I have been in guilds that silly things happened when I was off line log in and no guild anymore.
    I guess my real question is why should IS be responsible for what happens in YOUR guild?
    Most people never listen. They are just waiting on you to quit making noise so they can.
  • AzathothAzathoth Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    I love how, in the forums, one thing or another leads to the game already being over. Especially since it has yet to be released. Ashes: DOA.
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    +1 Skull & Crown metal coin
  • KarthosKarthos Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    @azathoth

    Our friend Skatagories has a propensity for the alarmist dramatic.
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