Demographics and raiding

Well gents I made some posts about player development cause in some games the poeple that actually raid is very low. Lot less than half.
Some of that is due to instant que and toxicity and raid prep times plus other things I do not want to discuss.
But by the looks of it some of the ideas were not taken to well so I will just generalize in the following statement.

Really no reason for an average person that plays MMOs not to do entry level raid. So I would recommend to the Ashes of Creation do something about. The game is Actually looking pretty good as far as raiding is concerned but keep in mind that a lot of people are going to be coming from the world of instant que world which kind of lends itself to the I want it right now type of thinking.

Whatever is out there right now like websites that includes videos on how to do everything and forums that tell you basically how to do everything and wikis were you could look everything up. Plus any other thing that you can think of is not working.
So something actually needs to be implemented that encourages raiding.

So the point is with all the tools that players have a lot of toons still do not raid.

Lets say that the majority of the people are not raiding well then companies would be inclinedto create content that is tailored to them correct. In fact some would argue that since they make up the majority of the population content should be tailored to non-raiders. And this also has to do with casual gamers vs hardcore gamers. Which I also do not want to discuss.

So if anyone has any ideas to get people involved in raiding you could post them here or start your own threads.

Comments

  • It's a sandbox game, players have the freedom to choose whatever path they want. If they want to raid they can. If they don't, that should be fine too. Players have the freedom of focusing on PvP or crafting, they should not be forced into raiding if they don't want to. If there are issues that prevent a player from raiding who would otherwise like to raid, that is a potential point of improvement but I don't think you've identified any such problem in your post.

    It's also hard to know ahead of time what might discourage people from raiding without an alpha or beta. I think the lack of instanced raiding will take some getting used to for most, myself included.
  • First off, the game won't have a groupfinder, so that will proberly do so alot of people won't raid. I don't think it will tell you anything about the raid either. I recall wow did. But it has been some times since i played it last. And i didn't play it for that long. My experience tells me, that alot of players don't go to websites to learn about the raid mecanics.
  • AzathothAzathoth Member, Braver of Worlds
    Players that want to raid can join guilds that focus on raiding. So, if you are in a guild, it would be the guilds responsibility to promote raiding within.

    Players that don't like/want a guild membership can find other players by making friends or chat.

    The encouragement to raid should be leadership boards and drops. Players interested will raid, others won't.
    57597603_387667588743769_477625458809110528_n.jpg?_nc_cat=105&_nc_ht=scontent-lax3-1.xx&oh=16e82247154b84484b7f627c0ac76fca&oe=5D448BDD
    +1 Skull & Crown metal coin
  • Wandering MistWandering Mist Member, Founder
    "So something actually needs to be implemented that encourages raiding."

    Why? There are plenty of valid reasons for someone not to raid, the simplest of which being that they just don't want to. Raiding isn't for everyone. It's a niche activity that some people just don't enjoy. Some people enjoy crafting, exploring or PvP and so focus on that instead of raiding.

    The other main reason why raiding is a niche activity is because of time. Unlike other activities in an mmorpg, raiding (even entry level raiding) requires the player to play at a certain time. You can't just log on one day and spontaneously say "I'm going to do a raid right now". No, you have to plan it for a certain time and day so that the other members of the raid know and will join you. I know quite a few people who physically can't commit to structured raiding times due to their work or family life.

    Yes the game can help promote raiding and encourage players to try it, but if the players either don't like it or can't commit to any kind of gaming schedule, then there is very little you can do to get them to raid.
  • "So something actually needs to be implemented that encourages raiding."

    Why? There are plenty of valid reasons for someone not to raid, the simplest of which being that they just don't want to. Raiding isn't for everyone. It's a niche activity that some people just don't enjoy. Some people enjoy crafting, exploring or PvP and so focus on that instead of raiding.

    The other main reason why raiding is a niche activity is because of time. Unlike other activities in an mmorpg, raiding (even entry level raiding) requires the player to play at a certain time. You can't just log on one day and spontaneously say "I'm going to do a raid right now". No, you have to plan it for a certain time and day so that the other members of the raid know and will join you. I know quite a few people who physically can't commit to structured raiding times due to their work or family life.

    Yes the game can help promote raiding and encourage players to try it, but if the players either don't like it or can't commit to any kind of gaming schedule, then there is very little you can do to get them to raid.

    If the game has a groupfinder for it, it can lower the amount of time required for it. Plus it also depends on the raid. But yeah, raids does take some times. Other raids takes alot of time
  • noaaninoaani Member
    consultant wrote: »
    Lets say that the majority of the people are not raiding well then companies would be inclinedto create content that is tailored to them correct.
    Incorrect.

    Not everyone is in to crafting.
    Not everyone is in to RP.
    Not everyone is in to grouping.
    Not everyone is in to PvP.
    Not everyone is in to soloing.
    Not everyone is in to achievements.
    Not everyone is in to storytelling.
    Not everyone is in to house decorating.

    Take any one of those things, and add raiding to the list.

    When developing content for any one of those groups, any developer should be developing content based on the players that want to be in each group.

    You don't develop X content around people that don't do X - you develop it around people that do.

    A good MMO has to develop content for many groups, some of it has cross over, some of it doesn't.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds
    In Ashes, what encourages raiding is the need to get rid of the negative impacts the world boss has on day-to-day gameplay - like the perpetual winter caused by the Winter Dragon.
  • consultant wrote: »
    Lets say that the majority of the people are not raiding well then companies would be inclinedto create content that is tailored to them correct. In fact some would argue that since they make up the majority of the population content should be tailored to non-raiders. And this also has to do with casual gamers vs hardcore gamers. Which I also do not want to discuss.

    Thats what killed WoW in my opinion. Blizzard was bought by Activision and they made it mainstream mid/late WotLK.
    They wanted a mainstream WoW, where everyone could be special, where everyone was a hero, but that was not the identity of WoW. The identity of WoW player characters was to be explorers, not heroes. Raids where supposed to be a troup of expendables going in to do their job, and save shit (imagine suicide squad without being forced by other people to do it).
    But Blizzard gave the casuals the ability to obtaine epic gear through "easy" methods, which in turn made the hardcore players angry. They worked hard for those epics. They bled and spilled tears for those epics, and now Blizzard started to give them away like candy. Look at current WoW, every child can get "epic" gear by completing World Quests. Epic does not mean epic anymore tbh....


    Sry, I kinda blanked out there.
    It is my opinion that game studios should not tailor their games to the players, but that the other case should apply. PLayers should start again to adapt to games. Thats what made Dark Souls so popular... They didnt bow down to casuals. They didnt tailor their game to casuals, but demanded from people to get good at their game if they wanted cool sh*t.
    uQHKizC.gif
  • unknownsystemerrorunknownsystemerror Member, Leader of Men
    The problem with catering your game to the hardcore chest thumpers is that they just don't put asses in the seats. Making dungeons and raids that only a small percentage of min/maxers can complete leads to the majority of your base being continually pissed off and migrating to other experiences. In a game with significant death penalties (and yes, they have said they will look at reducing those penalties in proximity to dungeon and raid content already) having a "Dark Souls" level of difficulty in finishing that content will only cater to that specific niche. Which leads to failure. Same on the full loot pvp, offline griefing side of things. Games like Wildstar billed themselves as "hardcore raiders only, noobs getgud or get out!" and failed. Albion Online has completely changed how they do things after finding out people wouldn't play their game and needed to go f2p. Atlas introduced survival mechanics to an "mmo" to try and mask the lack of actual content and failed miserably even having separate PVE and PVP servers. And Crowfail, the throne war simulator has pushed back release over and over once they found out in testing that people just don't like not having PVE things to do, so keep scope creeping themselves out of their "only hardcore pvpers need apply!" position. Steven looks to be trying to middle of the road Ashes. Asses in seats will be the goal vs niche play.
    south-park-rabble-rabble-rabbl-53b58d315aa49.jpg
  • Wandering MistWandering Mist Member, Founder
    The problem with catering your game to the hardcore chest thumpers is that they just don't put asses in the seats. Making dungeons and raids that only a small percentage of min/maxers can complete leads to the majority of your base being continually pissed off and migrating to other experiences. In a game with significant death penalties (and yes, they have said they will look at reducing those penalties in proximity to dungeon and raid content already) having a "Dark Souls" level of difficulty in finishing that content will only cater to that specific niche. Which leads to failure. Same on the full loot pvp, offline griefing side of things. Games like Wildstar billed themselves as "hardcore raiders only, noobs getgud or get out!" and failed. Albion Online has completely changed how they do things after finding out people wouldn't play their game and needed to go f2p. Atlas introduced survival mechanics to an "mmo" to try and mask the lack of actual content and failed miserably even having separate PVE and PVP servers. And Crowfail, the throne war simulator has pushed back release over and over once they found out in testing that people just don't like not having PVE things to do, so keep scope creeping themselves out of their "only hardcore pvpers need apply!" position. Steven looks to be trying to middle of the road Ashes. Asses in seats will be the goal vs niche play.

    What you say doesn't make much sense at all. If catering to the "hardcore" players is a bad idea then why do the souls games, as well as games like cuphead do so well?

    In my opinion what is more likely to drive players away is punishing mechanics. Full loot pvp is an example of this. The nature of the mechanic means that you can lose all your items through no fault of your own. If I lose due to my own mistakes that is fine, but if I play perfectly and still lose, that feels awful.
  • unknownsystemerrorunknownsystemerror Member, Leader of Men
    Souls and Cuphead are single player games.
    south-park-rabble-rabble-rabbl-53b58d315aa49.jpg
  • Wandering MistWandering Mist Member, Founder
    edited August 12
    Souls and Cuphead are single player games.

    And? The principle still applies regardless of whether it's single player or multiplayer.

    Correlation does NOT equal causation. Just because a game like Wildstar that catered to "hardcore" players failed, doesn't mean it failed because it catered to "hardcore" players.

    There have been rumours that the development of Wildstar was very badly handled by management, which is a common problem with a lot of games.

    https://www.resetera.com/threads/ex-wildstar-dev-details-what-went-wrong-in-development.63594/

    At the end of the day, it doesn't matter how good a concept is if it is managed poorly.
  • neuroguyneuroguy Member
    edited August 12
    There is a balance and tradeoff for making a game for a niche target audience. EVE is a very niche game, it is not nearly as popular as less niche games like current WoW but its player base is fairly stable. The more you tailor the game for a particular experience/playerbase, the smaller your overall playerbase but the higher the longevity of that playerbase.

    Overall though, the polish and quality of a game will determine its "success". I think current WoW is very successful because it is polished. Even a lot of "hardcore" players come back to WoW briefly around expansions and then just quit not long after (because the game does not have the longevity for them). Souls and cuphead were successful because they were polished, and they have a cult following by a small population because the niche that the game was created for struck a cord with them. That cult following though I think often times provides an illusion of a large active population, not to say the game isn't alive and well. MMORPGs also have the advantage of being socially driven, people play them because they have a social group that congregates around the game. This also greatly adds to the negative press that retail WoW has I think. If people think dark souls sucks they would quit much more easily than if someone thought WoW sucks because in WoW they may have a guild and lots of friends who's social connection depends on the game so people continue to say WoW sucks while still playing it.

    Ultimately, this post asked us to motivate raiding because "The game is Actually looking pretty good as far as raiding is concerned..." which I think is completely unfounded. I don't know where the OP got their raiding info from in AoC but there is very very little info/experience anyone has with it. Therefore I don't think we need to, or rather can't even if we wanted to, come up with ideas to motivate people to raid because we don't know wtf it looks like. This post is just super premature and based on way too many assumptions.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds
    And? The principle still applies regardless of whether it's single player or multiplayer.
    Single player v multiplayer is significantly different. Just as RPG v FPS is significantly different.

    But the reason that MMORPGS can no longer get by catering to hardcore players and ignoring casuals is because the vast majority of the MMORPG playerbase is some form of casual : either casual time or casual challenge or both.
    Because most of the people who used to be hardcore time and hardcore challenge have jobs and/or families that demand too much of their free time.

    At the end of the day, it doesn't matter how good a concept is if it is managed poorly.
    True, but that is really a separate issue.
  • consultant wrote: »
    Well gents I made some posts about player development cause in some games the poeple that actually raid is very low. Lot less than half.
    Some of that is due to instant que and toxicity and raid prep times plus other things I do not want to discuss.
    But by the looks of it some of the ideas were not taken to well so I will just generalize in the following statement.

    Really no reason for an average person that plays MMOs not to do entry level raid. So I would recommend to the Ashes of Creation do something about. The game is Actually looking pretty good as far as raiding is concerned but keep in mind that a lot of people are going to be coming from the world of instant que world which kind of lends itself to the I want it right now type of thinking.

    Whatever is out there right now like websites that includes videos on how to do everything and forums that tell you basically how to do everything and wikis were you could look everything up. Plus any other thing that you can think of is not working.
    So something actually needs to be implemented that encourages raiding.

    So the point is with all the tools that players have a lot of toons still do not raid.

    Lets say that the majority of the people are not raiding well then companies would be inclinedto create content that is tailored to them correct. In fact some would argue that since they make up the majority of the population content should be tailored to non-raiders. And this also has to do with casual gamers vs hardcore gamers. Which I also do not want to discuss.

    So if anyone has any ideas to get people involved in raiding you could post them here or start your own threads.

    Here's a thought experiment in two parts:

    1. Assume for the sake of argument you don't like fishing.

    2. Reread this post and substitute the word fish everywhere you see the word raid.

    The argument seems pretty silly and borderline offensive in how it has the subtext of suggesting what people *should* like even if they currently don't, now doesn't it?
  • The beauty of raiding is that it feeds into the economic and social systems, so not everyone has to do it to benefit from the content. Players may not raid, but they might rely on raiders for materials or sell raiders items. Raiding generates an industry that stretches beyond its direct participants, much like most professions.
  • Wandering MistWandering Mist Member, Founder
    Dygz wrote: »
    And? The principle still applies regardless of whether it's single player or multiplayer.
    Single player v multiplayer is significantly different. Just as RPG v FPS is significantly different.

    But the reason that MMORPGS can no longer get by catering to hardcore players and ignoring casuals is because the vast majority of the MMORPG playerbase is some form of casual : either casual time or casual challenge or both.
    Because most of the people who used to be hardcore time and hardcore challenge have jobs and/or families that demand too much of their free time.

    At the end of the day, it doesn't matter how good a concept is if it is managed poorly.
    True, but that is really a separate issue.

    Exactly, so there is no point in using Wildstar as an example of why it's wrong to only cater to a niche audience. And as Neuroguy said, Eve Online caters to a very niche audience and is still successful. Will it ever beat WoW in subscribers? Probably not, but it doesn't need to. Same with Old School Runescape, a game that has been running for 18 years and is still going strong.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds
    It's not necessarily wrong to cater to a niche audience - that all depends on how many players the devs or investors are shooting for.
    I don't consider Wildstar to be a good example of a game for hardcore players - or really a successful game. It lasted, what, 5 years compared to 15-20?
    Eve is successful, but it's an outlier for MMORPGs.
    Shroud of the Avatar is trying to be hardcore - nobody is biting.
    I'm seeing increased interest in Runescape with mobile, but not as much as the devs hoped. But, I don't know that I consider Runescape to be catering to hardcore players.

    At the end of the day, though, it really depends on who the devs want to cater to.
    Shroud of the Avatar appears to be happy with whomever jumps onboard. Even if that's only 20 or 30 people.
    Steven says he doesn't care if Ashes is niche, but... he wants to support a wide variety of playstyles rather than catering to one playstyle.
  • Damokles wrote: »
    consultant wrote: »
    Lets say that the majority of the people are not raiding well then companies would be inclinedto create content that is tailored to them correct. In fact some would argue that since they make up the majority of the population content should be tailored to non-raiders. And this also has to do with casual gamers vs hardcore gamers. Which I also do not want to discuss.

    Thats what killed WoW in my opinion. Blizzard was bought by Activision and they made it mainstream mid/late WotLK.
    They wanted a mainstream WoW, where everyone could be special, where everyone was a hero, but that was not the identity of WoW. The identity of WoW player characters was to be explorers, not heroes. Raids where supposed to be a troup of expendables going in to do their job, and save shit (imagine suicide squad without being forced by other people to do it).
    But Blizzard gave the casuals the ability to obtaine epic gear through "easy" methods, which in turn made the hardcore players angry. They worked hard for those epics. They bled and spilled tears for those epics, and now Blizzard started to give them away like candy. Look at current WoW, every child can get "epic" gear by completing World Quests. Epic does not mean epic anymore tbh....


    Sry, I kinda blanked out there.
    It is my opinion that game studios should not tailor their games to the players, but that the other case should apply. PLayers should start again to adapt to games. Thats what made Dark Souls so popular... They didnt bow down to casuals. They didnt tailor their game to casuals, but demanded from people to get good at their game if they wanted cool sh*t.

    That is why you add difficulty's to the raid. So the more casual can still try the raid, but the more hardcore can take on the harder fights
  • insomniainsomnia Member
    edited August 13
    The problem with catering your game to the hardcore chest thumpers is that they just don't put asses in the seats. Making dungeons and raids that only a small percentage of min/maxers can complete leads to the majority of your base being continually pissed off and migrating to other experiences. In a game with significant death penalties (and yes, they have said they will look at reducing those penalties in proximity to dungeon and raid content already) having a "Dark Souls" level of difficulty in finishing that content will only cater to that specific niche. Which leads to failure. Same on the full loot pvp, offline griefing side of things. Games like Wildstar billed themselves as "hardcore raiders only, noobs getgud or get out!" and failed. Albion Online has completely changed how they do things after finding out people wouldn't play their game and needed to go f2p. Atlas introduced survival mechanics to an "mmo" to try and mask the lack of actual content and failed miserably even having separate PVE and PVP servers. And Crowfail, the throne war simulator has pushed back release over and over once they found out in testing that people just don't like not having PVE things to do, so keep scope creeping themselves out of their "only hardcore pvpers need apply!" position. Steven looks to be trying to middle of the road Ashes. Asses in seats will be the goal vs niche play.

    What you say doesn't make much sense at all. If catering to the "hardcore" players is a bad idea then why do the souls games, as well as games like cuphead do so well?

    In my opinion what is more likely to drive players away is punishing mechanics. Full loot pvp is an example of this. The nature of the mechanic means that you can lose all your items through no fault of your own. If I lose due to my own mistakes that is fine, but if I play perfectly and still lose, that feels awful.
    Souls and Cuphead are single player games.

    And? The principle still applies regardless of whether it's single player or multiplayer.

    Correlation does NOT equal causation. Just because a game like Wildstar that catered to "hardcore" players failed, doesn't mean it failed because it catered to "hardcore" players.

    There have been rumours that the development of Wildstar was very badly handled by management, which is a common problem with a lot of games.

    https://www.resetera.com/threads/ex-wildstar-dev-details-what-went-wrong-in-development.63594/

    At the end of the day, it doesn't matter how good a concept is if it is managed poorly.

    As someone else said. They are single player games. They don't need a constant revenue to keep their servers up. So it does matter
  • noaaninoaani Member
    The problem with catering your game to the hardcore chest thumpers is that they just don't put asses in the seats. Making dungeons and raids that only a small percentage of min/maxers can complete leads to the majority of your base being continually pissed off and migrating to other experiences. In a game with significant death penalties (and yes, they have said they will look at reducing those penalties in proximity to dungeon and raid content already) having a "Dark Souls" level of difficulty in finishing that content will only cater to that specific niche. Which leads to failure. Same on the full loot pvp, offline griefing side of things. Games like Wildstar billed themselves as "hardcore raiders only, noobs getgud or get out!" and failed. Albion Online has completely changed how they do things after finding out people wouldn't play their game and needed to go f2p. Atlas introduced survival mechanics to an "mmo" to try and mask the lack of actual content and failed miserably even having separate PVE and PVP servers. And Crowfail, the throne war simulator has pushed back release over and over once they found out in testing that people just don't like not having PVE things to do, so keep scope creeping themselves out of their "only hardcore pvpers need apply!" position. Steven looks to be trying to middle of the road Ashes. Asses in seats will be the goal vs niche play.
    As someone accused of being a hardcore chest thumper (whether true or not), I actually agree.

    To me, a good MMO needs to start right in the middle. It needs to produce a shitload of good, entertaining single group content that has a nice difficulty incline (not a strict incline though) built right in to it. As long as players have interesting group content variety to run, an MMO has a good chance at a stable player core.

    From there though, that MMO needs to branch both up and down. Branch down with solo or duo based content, which provides those people running groups with something to do while waiting for a group, but is also the single best content type in an MMO to deliver intricate story details (nothing worse than running a group with a player that insists on stopping to admire the murals on the walls - though some games put a lot of lore detail in to such things and are well worth checking out when you aren't wasting other peoples time).

    Having this solo content also encourages a different set of players to pick up your game - the solo centric player. Since you have already spent the time in making that solo content in the first place, it takes little additional effort from here to make that solo content it's own form of progression for this new set of players.

    Now that your core group of group centric players have some content they can do when not in a group, a good developer is then able to give those players something to strive to above single group content.

    This is where raid content comes in

    Raid content is the best way to give players a valid sense of achievement. Killing the end mob of solo progression is all well and good, but 10,000 other players on your server have done that a well. However, killing the end mob of raid progression (something Ashes is likely to not have, which is why some people claim Ashes has no end game) is something that only two or three raids on your server will do.

    Much like how adding solo content for the group centric core of your game will see your game attract a new set of players, adding in raid content will also attract a new set of players. From there, the good developer can do exactly what they did with the solo content - since they are already spending resources on it to give the core of their players something above group content, it isn't that much more work to make your raid content viable for this new set of players it attracts.

    To me, an MMO is made up of many niche groups.

    A good MMO needs its core of players whole mostly run group content, but it also needs it's solo players, it's raiders, it's crafters, it's lore aficionados, it's RP'ers, it's PvP'ers, and people dedicated to any other facets of the game you may add in (ships and politics, in Ashes case).

    In my mind, no game should cater to any one of these groups over any other - even if I personally will use one specific portion of the content more than most, and other portions of it literally not at all.

    All of these groups need content, systems and tools specifically for them, and the game as a whole is at it's best when all of these groups are at their best.

    So yes, catering to the hardcore chest thumper is bad - unless you also cater to everyone else.
  • I believe a compartmentalization of the term "raiding" may help. A long with, what the Ashes will, and will not have to offer in that regard.

    Raiding, are we talking about instanced, raid members only content?
    Raiding, are we talking open world, and each encounter locks?
    Raiding, are we talking open world, and unlocked encounters?
    Raiding, open Cities?
    Raiding, Castles and picking sides for the fight?
    Raiding, in pure PvE sense, or more PvP sense?

    In many games raiding was instanced and raid members only. I feel in Ashes, while there may be some of that going on, we will experience a far more "open" raiding feel; something fewer games have offered.

    Just a thought on the subject.. I use to raid on a competitive level for a few years.. There is a lot of toxicity brought on by the players themselves, drama, ect.. but the game mechanics and design also hold a lot of that responsibility.

    A lot of the team has experience with other past mmos, hopefully lessons were learned.

    My 2 cents of course, and opinion.. Sorry I did not read everybody's reply above.. if I am far off topic just ignore..
  • consultantconsultant Member
    edited August 21
    Well think people that missing out raiding is a shame. Think more people could get involved in raiding and have a lot more fun. Plus think people do not kow how easy normal raiding is.





  • edited August 21
    The problem is there isn't going to be a normal or hard mode raid. Most raids are not instanced, they are open world, so not only do you have to get a group together, you also have to try and wrangle any freelancers that decide to tag along, and you have to hope no corrupted players or enemy guilds show up to kick you out.

    Also, there won't be fast travel, so no porting to the raid or the entrance. You have to group up and lead people that haven't been there before or those that get lost easily to the raid. Which adds time commitment.

    Its not easy when you don't have full control of who is around because its not instanced.

    That being said, I"m looking forward to raiding as well as RP and just exploring.

    Some raids and dungeons will be instanced, but it seems the majority are going to be open.
  • consultantconsultant Member
    edited September 3
    Well there are some guild leaders that are professiionals at developing so if Ashes of Creation got with them they could make the path to raiding pretty clear and get information to every one.

    As far why. Well let just say there are more people that wnat to raid than actually raid.
    Most people do dungeouns. Well Raids are dungeouns that just take a little longer and take a little tiny bit more skill so in WoW terms if you do well in herioc dungeouns then you should do well in raids.

    And What Noaani said about how not everyone is into xxxxxx basically saying it applies to everything well. First of all think dungeouns and raiding is the meat and patatoes of MMO. Second of all If someone is not involved in crafting well that is because they do not want too.

    Proof is in the pudding you could go to chat channel right now and ask who would be interested in raid and lots of people would reply. One time a guild leader got tired of trying to teach veterans how to raid so he restarted with non raiders. So he was looking for people that normally did not raid filled up pretty fast.

    Plus if lets say you have one raid spot open. What normally happens is guild leaders have to go through possible 5 to 10 people before finding a right fit. Not like guild leaders have a choice of over qualified raiders. Most of the time people get turned away for lack of skill.

    One time I was in a guild that did nothing together would just get kicked even from normal dungeouns well one day I told them to do guild runs with 3 people so they woud not get kicked. As far as dps goes I carried them for a while cause I had normal raid gear. But pretty soon they were getting geared up doing herioc dungeouns and normal raiding and started doing herioc raiding all with out my help. So the one bit of information that they need to make it to herioc raiding was they could do guild runs with out a tank and healer with just 3 dps.

    Really all I did is get the ball rolling and they did the rest.

    Thing is raiding is different from other aspects of MMO cause besides dungeouns which everyone does most other activities are individual effort. Your posts do not even make sense. Crafting is a no skill activity.

    Guessing there are going to be group quests but for the most part all other activites are solo for the most part and do nto require as much skill as raiding.

    So lack of skill as far as raiding is concerned is an issue. Not just well every one does not raid. Not every one goes fishing either.

    So just about everyone does dungeouns but entry level raid is a niche ability do not see how any one could say that. All people need is a little push and you got your self a decent raider.
  • consultant wrote: »
    Well there are some guild leaders that are professiionals at developing so if Ashes of Creation got with them they could make the path to raiding pretty clear and get information to every one.

    As far why. Well let just say there are more people that wnat to raid than actually raid.
    Most people do dungeouns. Well Raids are dungeouns that just take a little longer and take a little tiny bit more skill so in WoW terms if you do well in herioc dungeouns then you should do well in raids.

    I'm not going to lie, this post is even more of a rambling mess than I am used to seeing.

    I'm not even sure of the general thought behind it, let alone of where to begin in a response to it.

    I'll try and reply though, as everything after this break 'seems' to be a reply to me.

    And What Noaani said about how not everyone is into xxxxxx basically saying it applies to everything well. First of all think dungeouns and raiding is the meat and patatoes of MMO. Second of all If someone is not involved in crafting well that is because they do not want too.
    What you say about someone not being interested in crafting because they do not want to is absolutely true.

    However, the same applies to all aspects of the game.

    Some people are not interested in soloing because they do not want to.

    Some people are not interested grouping because they do not want to.

    Some people are not interested raiding because they do not want to.

    Some people are not interested house decorating because they do not want to.

    Some people are not interested sailing because they do not want to.
    Proof is in the pudding you could go to chat channel right now and ask who would be interested in raid and lots of people would reply. One time a guild leader got tired of trying to teach veterans how to raid so he restarted with non raiders. So he was looking for people that normally did not raid filled up pretty fast.
    Without knowing how many people have not replied here, knowing how many have is worthless.

    If you ask in chat and get 15 replies out of 100 people, then that is good. If you ask in chat and get 15 replies out of 1,000 people, then that isn't good.
    Plus if lets say you have one raid spot open. What normally happens is guild leaders have to go through possible 5 to 10 people before finding a right fit. Not like guild leaders have a choice of over qualified raiders. Most of the time people get turned away for lack of skill.
    Most people interested in raiding but not in a guild that raids won't join a guild based raid, because of two main reasons.

    The first is that many guild based raids that have others join in usually have restrictions on loot. From the guild perspective this is fair enough, but from the individual coming in to fill that last spot, it isn't. Even if the guild advertises a fair system, when it comes down to it, if there is a really good shield drop, their main tank will get it.

    The second is that most guilds that raid but are unable to fill out a raid themselves are probably not overly good at raiding. Better off not wasting your time/lockout on a raid that has a good chance of not being all that successful.
    One time I was in a guild that did nothing together would just get kicked even from normal dungeouns well one day I told them to do guild runs with 3 people so they woud not get kicked. As far as dps goes I carried them for a while cause I had normal raid gear. But pretty soon they were getting geared up doing herioc dungeouns and normal raiding and started doing herioc raiding all with out my help. So the one bit of information that they need to make it to herioc raiding was they could do guild runs with out a tank and healer with just 3 dps.

    Really all I did is get the ball rolling and they did the rest.
    Cool story bro.

    Pointless story, but cool.

    I have stories about raids too.
    Thing is raiding is different from other aspects of MMO cause besides dungeouns which everyone does most other activities are individual effort. Your posts do not even make sense. Crafting is a no skill activity.

    Guessing there are going to be group quests but for the most part all other activites are solo for the most part and do nto require as much skill as raiding.
    Not everyone that chooses to not raid does so because they can't. Also, not everyone that chooses to not raid in one game makes the same choice in all games.

    People pick and chose different aspects of each game they play. Someone may really like the raid content in EQ2 or WoW, but then really like the crafting content in Archeage and so raid in EQ2 and/or WoW and not craft in either game, but then craft in Archeage but never raid at all in that game.
    So lack of skill as far as raiding is concerned is an issue. Not just well every one does not raid. Not every one goes fishing either.

    So just about everyone does dungeouns but entry level raid is a niche ability do not see how any one could say that. All people need is a little push and you got your self a decent raider.
    Lack of skill isn't an issue in terms of raiding.

    The skills needed to raid are easily learned.

    What prevents most people from raiding regularly is the need to put aside a specific block of time each week. Literally any player that is able to put that same block of time aside and is interested in raiding (again, not every player wants to raid in every game), then it won't take long to have that player as a valued member of a raiding guild.
  • So how come there are more people want to get into a raid then there are raid spots.

    You said skilla needed to raid are easily learned which is true, then how come raid leaders have to go through so many people to fill spots.

    So if you went in your chat channel and asked who does not want to raid you would probably get verry little responses.

    Most people want to raid. So how come they are not raiding

    Could make posts on how to get people involved in every aspect of the game.

    To say that a lot of people do not raid just because the do not car is just ridiculous.

    In WoW expansion comes out people come back do their fill of dungeouns and raiding and then unsubb.
    Large number of people.

    They do not persay get their fill of fishing and crafting and then unsubb.

    If there is solo content and some one is not involved in it it is because they do not want to.

    But when a 16 man group is required then you have to find 15 other people to play with have to find a group to play with.

    So Actually it is just the opposite People do not get involved in some other aspects of MMO cause they do not want to.

    But Plenty of people out there they wnat to raid but do not. As A matter of face Raid Leaders have no shortage of people that wnat to raid. Never heard of a raid leader saying There are so many qualified people that could raid but cannot get them to raid cause they do not want to.

    Think you are focusing on the exeptions not the rule and trying to make it look like it is true.

  • Wandering MistWandering Mist Member, Founder
    consultant wrote: »
    So how come there are more people want to get into a raid then there are raid spots.

    You said skilla needed to raid are easily learned which is true, then how come raid leaders have to go through so many people to fill spots.

    So if you went in your chat channel and asked who does not want to raid you would probably get verry little responses.

    Most people want to raid. So how come they are not raiding

    Could make posts on how to get people involved in every aspect of the game.

    To say that a lot of people do not raid just because the do not car is just ridiculous.

    In WoW expansion comes out people come back do their fill of dungeouns and raiding and then unsubb.
    Large number of people.

    They do not persay get their fill of fishing and crafting and then unsubb.

    If there is solo content and some one is not involved in it it is because they do not want to.

    But when a 16 man group is required then you have to find 15 other people to play with have to find a group to play with.

    So Actually it is just the opposite People do not get involved in some other aspects of MMO cause they do not want to.

    But Plenty of people out there they wnat to raid but do not. As A matter of face Raid Leaders have no shortage of people that wnat to raid. Never heard of a raid leader saying There are so many qualified people that could raid but cannot get them to raid cause they do not want to.

    Think you are focusing on the exeptions not the rule and trying to make it look like it is true.

    I can only speak from personal experience here but I find a lot of people want to raid but can't for whatever reason. Either they can't make all the raid nights (which is crucial for good progression of harder content), or they don't have the mental aptitude for it.

    The mental side of it is, in my opinion, more important than physical skill. When you are progression raiding your entire mindset has to change. You can't go into a new raid and expect to kill all the bosses in 1-2 attempts. It can take hundreds of attempts to get the fight mechanics down. A lot of people I knew want to raid but haven't got the correct mindset for it, and I've spent a great deal of time trying to teach people how to raid from a mental standpoint.
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