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Stealth-mechanics - Unlimited/Limited

DamoklesDamokles Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
edited October 2019 in General Discussion
Hello everybody,
Damokles here again!

Lets talk about Stealth. We have an example of it in the game, but it kind of reminds me of a mage invisibility that they throw on, when the heat gets too high, instead of rogue stealth.

Here is my question to you: Do you thi k that rogue should have unlimited stealth(like in WoW), or should they have a timelimit on it?

I myself am a fan of rogues and typical rogue gameplay, but believe that rogue stealth should be time/resource limited! The reason is that is simple: if rogues had unli ited stealth, then that would be their majour gameplay mechanik, and that would be too bad. Rogues have so many different aspects and we see them be wasted in tradefor huge stealth capabilities.
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Comments

  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    I don't necessarily think all rogue classes should have unlimited stealth, but s\rogue/rogue probably should.
  • sarkadosarkado Member, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited October 2019
    For me the rogue stealth mechanic can be either way, so long as we know how "stealth reveal" works. If I need a medium to long cool down spell to see a rogue, then I believe it should be resource / time based. If I can pop a reveal every 5-10 seconds then I don't see an issue with them having an unlimited stealth.

    Personally I'd think stealth should be done in one of these fashions:

    example 1: Unlimited Stealth
    -Reduced Move Speed 10-20%
    -Critical Hit on attack
    -Bonus damage on back-stab

    example 2: Limited / Resource Based
    -Stealth for 20 seconds or Mana Equivalent (25-30 second cool down, begins while stealthed)
    -Increased move speed 30-40% for 5-10 seconds
    -Critical Hit on attack
    -Chance to Cripple
  • AzathothAzathoth Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    I would like to see any timer on stealth to be countered by other classes. So if the Rogue has 15 seconds of stealth, but stand next to a (non allied) Ranger, then that would be reduced to like 10 seconds. Other classes would fall somewhere between the two.
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    +1 Skull & Crown metal coin
  • sarkadosarkado Member, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited October 2019
    Azathoth wrote: »
    I would like to see any timer on stealth to be countered by other classes. So if the Rogue has 15 seconds of stealth, but stand next to a (non allied) Ranger, then that would be reduced to like 10 seconds. Other classes would fall somewhere between the two.

    Since, stealth is usually one of their main mechanics I personally don't think it would be too fair to reduce their staple skill in that regard. Perhaps, something more along the lines of a ranger with a pet would cause the rogue to shimmer if he got within a certain sphere of influence allowing him to be attacked and ultimately revealed fully. Of course there would need to be some limitations as to not make it so rangers are impervious to rogues, but you get the idea :smile:
  • AzathothAzathoth Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Last I saw stealth it was a predator type effect. I don't know, there should be a counter with a least one class that can see them. Maybe not revealing them to others though.
    57597603_387667588743769_477625458809110528_n.jpg?_nc_cat=105&_nc_ht=scontent-lax3-1.xx&oh=16e82247154b84484b7f627c0ac76fca&oe=5D448BDD
    +1 Skull & Crown metal coin
  • KaienKaien Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited October 2019
    Never been a big fan of unlimited stealth mechanic, just encourage ganking imho. Like in WoW for exampel i had an alt toon who was a Rogue just so i can take revenge on gankers who ganked me whilst i was farming stuff on my main, usually ended with me killing them so many times that they either logged off or called their guildies :) Being invisible unlimited doesn´t make you a good player in pvp just makes you a prick.

    So i wouldn´t be sad if there was a time limit on the stealth mechanic in this game but if not oh well guess im going to have an alt or something :)
  • I am also against the unlimited stealth. Experience from WoW:
    -I am questing in a field alone. A rogue attack me invisibly. If he kills me, no problem, he was the better. But if I am the better and I would be able to defeat him, I should receive my moral reward for it. But not that happen. The rogue goes back to stealth and run away and hide. As he has unlimited stealth, I do not have a really chance to find him.
    If the rouge want to revenge on his loss, he can wait in stealth until I start to fight with a stronger mob and attack me in the middle of a fight. So even if I am stronger than him I will be defeated. Even if I cautious and look around before I attack the mob, I do not have a chance to spot him, because he has unlimited stealth.
  • MarzzoMarzzo Member, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Some rogue combinations should have unlimited stealth. It does not really matter in the end. The whole idea is that rogues should always get the opener, it is their class design.
  • GhoostyGhoosty Member
    edited October 2019
    @Marzzo
    I am open for a restricted unlimited stealth.(what an oxymoron) So rouge has unlimited stealth when out of combat, but limited when in combat. So the rogue has the opener, and even within the fight they can get a 10-15 sec another invisibility, but can't just leave the fight without chance that his enemy can find him.
  • DamoklesDamokles Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Ghoosty wrote: »
    @Marzzo
    I am open for a restricted unlimited stealth.(what an oxymoron) So rouge has unlimited stealth when out of combat, but limited when in combat. So the rogue has the opener, and even within the fight they can get a 10-15 sec another invisibility, but can't just leave the fight without chance that his enemy can find him.

    They could implement a mechanik radius mechanik.

    Unlimited in the open world, but limited the second they enter a radius of around 10m surrounding an enemy. They could make it so that they get slowly ever clearer. At first they are just a ripple, but with each step closer, they become more distinct.
    KkvMmA5.png
  • AzathothAzathoth Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Marzzo wrote: »
    Some rogue combinations should have unlimited stealth. It does not really matter in the end. The whole idea is that rogues should always get the opener, it is their class design.

    I don't see the logic here, but you seem adamant. So, to follow your post I will agree.
    Certain Rogue Combinations can have unlimited Stealth, however:

    - They should not be granted attacks that can, from stealth, kill another player. Mobs are fine.
    - Since they should have the 'opener' that's fine, but after that open they shouldn't be able to have unlimited Stealth.
    - Certain Tank & Fighter Combinations should always get to Dodge/Parry back stab attacks.
    - Certain Ranger & Tank Combinations should always get a chance to prevent an opener. However, both parties should be notified meaning the Rogue will know when a character can detect them sneaking.
    - This limits the unlimited Stealth to PvE, but adds limits to Stealth in PvP.
    - In the end, it doesn't matter.

    We should also implement things that other Class Combinations should always get.
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    +1 Skull & Crown metal coin
  • GhoostyGhoosty Member
    edited October 2019
    Damokles wrote: »
    Unlimited in the open world, but limited the second they enter a radius of around 10m surrounding an enemy. They could make it so that they get slowly ever clearer. At first they are just a ripple, but with each step closer, they become more distinct.

    This works if we are talking action based only. From the moment we are including tab target, you have to decided when can you select the enemy. Additionally, this cause problem if you have pet. I set the pet to aggressive. When will the pet attacking the enemy?

    My other concern is that does not solve the things what I hate most in the unlimited stealth: The rouge can leave the fight when he think he will loose. So he has much less risk to attack somebody.
  • DamoklesDamokles Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Ghoosty wrote: »
    Damokles wrote: »
    Unlimited in the open world, but limited the second they enter a radius of around 10m surrounding an enemy. They could make it so that they get slowly ever clearer. At first they are just a ripple, but with each step closer, they become more distinct.

    This works if we are talking action based only. From the moment we are including tab target, you have to decided when can you select the enemy. Additionally, this cause problem if you have pet. I set the pet to agressive. When will the pet attacking the enemy.

    My other concern is that does not solve the things what I hate most in the unlimited stealth: The rouge can leave the fight when he think he will loose. So he has much less risk to attack somebody.

    They could only actually select them after they fully left stealth. I thought of it more like the stealth effect that we have currently, just that the animation and particles would pick up in intensity the closer you get to other people.
    KkvMmA5.png
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited October 2019
    Rogue Stealth ability is most likely to be limited with cooldowns in some fashion from what we've seen so far in Apoc and from what's been said by the devs.
  • Stealth mechanic should imo be somehow limited and not something where people can hide and be safe forever. Bonus damage when ambushing people is quite obvious feature, but also slightly reduced moving speed makes sense.

    I have always wondered why the stealth needs to be 100% invisible? Could it be 90% for example? What if people could actually see the rogue when he is moving? Maybe that stealth character could show short perioids as camouflaged person and gives other players a chance to notice him..
    Do you need a ride to the Underworld?
  • DamoklesDamokles Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    ferryman wrote: »
    Stealth mechanic should imo be somehow limited and not something where people can hide and be safe forever. Bonus damage when ambushing people is quite obvious feature, but also slightly reduced moving speed makes sense.

    I have always wondered why the stealth needs to be 100% invisible? Could it be 90% for example? What if people could actually see the rogue when he is moving? Maybe that stealth character could show short perioids as camouflaged person and gives other players a chance to notice him..

    Well they could go the current way thhat they have implemented stealth, semi invisible but with visual distortion.
    KkvMmA5.png
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Right. In Apoc, we can still notice when an invisible person moves near us.
  • Yes something like that would be nice where player in stealth actually needs to take account moving and the environment.
    Do you need a ride to the Underworld?
  • ilisfetilisfet Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    The stealth effect seen in APOC is what I hoped for. In ESO invisible players are literally just that. There is no trace of them at all. On top of that, anti-stealth mechanics are woefully inadequate as movespeed is 3-5m/s and stealth detection radius is 2-6m.

    APOC has active camouflage, so you can see them, it's just harder than normal to. Experienced players can already spot invisible players consistently, so it can't be used to effectively ambush, just escape or traverse.
  • whitedude31whitedude31 Member, Founder, Kickstarter
    ilisfet wrote: »
    The stealth effect seen in APOC is what I hoped for. In ESO invisible players are literally just that. There is no trace of them at all. On top of that, anti-stealth mechanics are woefully inadequate as movespeed is 3-5m/s and stealth detection radius is 2-6m.

    APOC has active camouflage, so you can see them, it's just harder than normal to. Experienced players can already spot invisible players consistently, so it can't be used to effectively ambush, just escape or traverse.

    As long as stealth is like this then stealth characters won't be able to just walk up to people and attack without being noticed, unless they use the environment to cover themselves, which is exactly what I am hoping for. My expectation for stealth mechanics is the same as invisibility in Halo 3 (yes I brought up an FPS, get over it), where you are almost completely invisible, but an experienced player can spot you if they pay attention.
  • ilisfetilisfet Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    invisibility in Halo 3

    That... that's active camoflauge, the power up is literally called active camoflauge and exactly what I was referencing in my post.
  • being a rogue player since Burning crusade what i want is this:
    Unlimited stealth in PVE
    PVP stealth can be unlimited BUT it should be like the first mechanics in wow, the more you get close to the target the more probability you become visible
    Reduce movement in stealth mode
    Back stab should be some of the most OP abilities of the rogue without being a instakill
    There should be an ability that allows you to become stealth again in PVP (it should be a less efficient stealth, only for a short period of time and should have a very long cooldown) so it adds the idea that a rogue is a class that hits and, if doesn't succeed, run, like a smoke bomb or something like that
    IS has already establish that theyr'e going to use the rock paper scissors idea in the class balance so there's definitely going to be a class or classes that are going to be OP against a rogue, my assumption is that a rogue cannot handle tank based classes and will be OP against other DPS or magic classes
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  • whitedude31whitedude31 Member, Founder, Kickstarter
    ilisfet wrote: »
    invisibility in Halo 3

    That... that's active camoflauge, the power up is literally called active camoflauge and exactly what I was referencing in my post.

    I guess I should have been more direct with the fact that I was agreeing with you and giving another example :smile:
  • noaani wrote: »
    I don't necessarily think all rogue classes should have unlimited stealth, but s\rogue/rogue probably should.

    Yea i think stealth should be depandant on how "rogue" you are
    Probably movementspeed while your in stealth aswell.
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  • DecimusDecimus Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited October 2019
    I like how they currently have it in Apoc: "predator"/"camouflage" style stealth rather than 100% invisibility.

    That should in my opinion be the baseline for stealth, with perhaps some abilities (with cooldowns) to give you enhanced stealth for a little while.

    e.g. ability X could make you 100% invisible with the caveat of having to stand still, where as ability Z would give you 99% invisibility but only for a few seconds etc etc


    I do like stealth toggles (i.e. "permanent stealth"), but those should never just give you full invisibility.
  • I think they said that the stealth in the mmo, wont last as long as they made it last, in the video
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