XenantayaMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited November 2019
Maybe the participants in this thread already know this, but Steven talked about the release timing of Nodes 3 when he was streaming himself playing APOC solo on October 12. The summary of what he said is "Nodes 3 video around Alpha 2 or just after Alpha 1 – Want it to be representative of the state that its in. Since we’re nearing Alpha 1, want it to look awesome." https://ashespost.com/10-12-19-twitch-qna/. So would not expect Nodes 3 anytime soon.
Edit to change "Know Your Nodes 3" to "Nodes 3" in first sentence, to prevent confusion.
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VmanGmanMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I am of an opinion that if you are going to monetize your game, APOC in this example you are leaving door open to a full critique
1. APOC since it has been monetized should be considered as a finished product and representative of the MMO development
In this category it fails, it has been a year since the original APOC release and not much content was added to the game except the new snow map and microtransactions.
2. The rate we are getting new payed cosmetics is faster than we are getting info about the game
3. The info about the game, namely core mechanics should have been locked years ago with minor tweaks.
I mean just look at the newly announced Diablo 4 with probably 2-3 more years of develoment ahead minimum. We know far more about that game than AOC, hell we know more about WoW Shadowlands than AOC.
In conclusion, Intrepid is no longer transparent and their monetazation mechanics are predatory were this any pre-alpha game not of an MMORPG genre.
Exactly! Thank you for making sense of what's happening. We are literally getting more paid cosmetic updates than updates about the actual game. That's not ok and definitely not the right kind of open development. @noaani
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Know Your Nodes: Divine Nodes is not the same thing as Nodes 3.
Divine Nodes is just an article. Close to 5 months delayed.
Nodes 3 is a tech demo. Close to 2 years delayed.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Cosmetics we can purchase is easy monetization since it only requires concept art.
It's a great way to fund an indie project. Helps pay for the development team.
I would much rather do that -I purchase cosmetics 2-3 times per year- than have the game become vaporware due to lack of funding. Already went through that with Revival.
With Apoc, at least I can run a character through a game and see what the environment will look like. I can't do that with Chronicles of Elyria and CoE has been in development longer than Ashes. We won't be able to run a character through CoE for at least another 6 months. And I've probably spent more cash on their items than I have for Ashes.
But, again, I am happy to do so because I want to financially support devs developing the game mechanics I want to play.
3. The info about the game, namely core mechanics should have been locked years ago with minor tweaks.
Umm. No.
Due to the fact that this game was crowdfunded, the community was built up before the game was.
Development of the game itself didn't even start in ernest until last year. Saying the game systems should have been locked in years ago makes no sense in this context.
Now, I totally get where you're coming from, and in a developer/investor funded game I'd totally agree. By the time the community around the game is as old as this community is, you'd expect most major aspects of the game to be locked down - but that is only because the game would have been in development for 2 or 3 years before the game was announced and a community formed.
This is something many people on the fringes of this games community seem to forget - we were bought in to the fold 3 years earlier than we are used to.
3. The info about the game, namely core mechanics should have been locked years ago with minor tweaks.
Umm. No.
Due to the fact that this game was crowdfunded, the community was built up before the game was.
Development of the game itself didn't even start in ernest until last year. Saying the game systems should have been locked in years ago makes no sense in this context.
Now, I totally get where you're coming from, and in a developer/investor funded game I'd totally agree. By the time the community around the game is as old as this community is, you'd expect most major aspects of the game to be locked down - but that is only because the game would have been in development for 2 or 3 years before the game was announced and a community formed.
This is something many people on the fringes of this games community seem to forget - we were bought in to the fold 3 years earlier than we are used to.
I am fully aware of the development cycle and how long it takes.
What I mean by core mechanics is stuff like nodes etc., after all they are building the game around these systems. If they suddendly decide to rework the whole node system it could delay the game development by several months if not years.
I am of an opinion that if you are going to monetize your game, APOC in this example you are leaving door open to a full critique
1. APOC since it has been monetized should be considered as a finished product and representative of the MMO development
In this category it fails, it has been a year since the original APOC release and not much content was added to the game except the new snow map and microtransactions.
2. The rate we are getting new payed cosmetics is faster than we are getting info about the game
3. The info about the game, namely core mechanics should have been locked years ago with minor tweaks.
I mean just look at the newly announced Diablo 4 with probably 2-3 more years of develoment ahead minimum. We know far more about that game than AOC, hell we know more about WoW Shadowlands than AOC.
In conclusion, Intrepid is no longer transparent and their monetazation mechanics are predatory were this any pre-alpha game not of an MMORPG genre.
Gotta disagree with most of these points.
1. APOC is a free testing ground that you can, if you wish to, purchase skins from. By your logic, this entire game is already a finished product, since they've monetized by crowdfunding, kickstarter, and monthly packs. I might agree with you a bit more if you had to pay a price for APOC, or maybe it was a bonus of one of the packs. The original APOC showed itself to be a flawed construct, and led them to a full reorganization of their code. If you don't consider the base combat, network changes and stability 'much change' then i don't know what to tell you.
2. We get one paid cosmetic pass once a month. We get one livestream a month. In literally any month there is anything else (that would be all of them) this statement is categorically false.
3. You are comparing 2 products from the largest MMO company in existence, with so many employees they could rush any of the three they are currently working on within a year should they wish it, with a start up company with under 50 employees. You are also comparing 2 products that have been under development for years. Diablo 3 didnt get it's 2nd xpac, as resources were diverted for the creation of overwatch, but the team were still beginning the work that would become Diablo 4. And not only has Shadowlands been in development since shortly after the release of Battle for Azeroth (Sticking with the current Blizzard habit of releasing xpacs in story pairs) It is also just that, an expansion. Comparing it to the ground up creation of a new ip is liking thinking building an entire house is just as easy as redoing your attic. Base wow took over 7 years to create. IS is well within the appropriate dev schedule of an mmo.
As has been stated earlier, transparency is a subjective term. IS has been giving consistent new info, and whether we feel that it's enough, or that it's only in one of the APOC modes, we don't get to say they aren't doing anything or showing anything, without sounding dumb as bricks. Also stop normalizing 'Predatory Monetazation' not every micro transaction, or sale is. Calling everything that makes it seem not as bad when it actually exists. Like in various sporting game franchises, eastern pay to win games, and any of several manipulative lootbox practices.
This is something many people on the fringes of this games community seem to forget - we were bought in to the fold 3 years earlier than we are used to.
This is a point that seems to keep escaping people.
I am fully aware of the development cycle and how long it takes.
I'm not going to doubt this point just yet, but it leads me to a question I have to ask.
If you are aware of the development cycle of games, why did you compare Ashes and what we know about it unfavorably to Diablo 4 and what we know about it?
Development on Diablo 4 started almost 2 years before development on Ashes - if you guy by Blizzard job listings at the time.
If you want to compare Ashes to Diablo 4 in terms of open development and such, compare Ashes now to Diablo 4 in early 2018. That way, you are comparing games with each other after a similar amount of development time.
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mcstackersonMember, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I am of an opinion that if you are going to monetize your game, APOC in this example you are leaving door open to a full critique
1. APOC since it has been monetized should be considered as a finished product and representative of the MMO development
In this category it fails, it has been a year since the original APOC release and not much content was added to the game except the new snow map and microtransactions.
2. The rate we are getting new payed cosmetics is faster than we are getting info about the game
3. The info about the game, namely core mechanics should have been locked years ago with minor tweaks.
I mean just look at the newly announced Diablo 4 with probably 2-3 more years of develoment ahead minimum. We know far more about that game than AOC, hell we know more about WoW Shadowlands than AOC.
In conclusion, Intrepid is no longer transparent and their monetazation mechanics are predatory were this any pre-alpha game not of an MMORPG genre.
1. Why? People were already buying stuff for the MMO and they can't even play it. Technically that means it's monetized. I also feel like you use monetize as a blanket statement and ignore how it is monetized. It's a free game with an option battle pass and some cosmetics, cosmetics that also transfer to their other game.
2. Their isn't much more info to give until they are further in development. They gave us the high level plan for features but giving us more details are pointless as they will most likely be changed once they start playing with them in game.
3. Is your only grounds for comparing these games to ashes is how much dev time you predict to be left and when in development these games were announced? You compare Diablo 4 which isn't an MMO and Shadowlands which is an expansion for an existing game. You realize why that isn't a fair comparison right? They are still trying to develop a game that will support the player numbers they want.
3. The info about the game, namely core mechanics should have been locked years ago with minor tweaks.
Umm. No.
Due to the fact that this game was crowdfunded, the community was built up before the game was.
Development of the game itself didn't even start in ernest until last year. Saying the game systems should have been locked in years ago makes no sense in this context.
Now, I totally get where you're coming from, and in a developer/investor funded game I'd totally agree. By the time the community around the game is as old as this community is, you'd expect most major aspects of the game to be locked down - but that is only because the game would have been in development for 2 or 3 years before the game was announced and a community formed.
This is something many people on the fringes of this games community seem to forget - we were bought in to the fold 3 years earlier than we are used to.
I am fully aware of the development cycle and how long it takes.
What I mean by core mechanics is stuff like nodes etc., after all they are building the game around these systems. If they suddendly decide to rework the whole node system it could delay the game development by several months if not years.
Yes, it would be nice to be testing nodes as their is a lot to them but it also dependent on them getting other systems running before it can be fully tested. They are in the process of making an optimized game that will support a large number of players which i think is something the node system needs before it can be thoroughly tested.
I want more info about the concepts and their thoughts how are they actually going to implenent it.
Seeing a new creature animated is cool but entirely useless for me.
If you want a better example from crownfunded MMO, Chronicles of Elyria in my opinion did far better job.
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VmanGmanMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I want more info about the concepts and their thoughts how are they actually going to implenent it.
Seeing a new creature animated is cool but entirely useless for me.
If you want a better example from crownfunded MMO, Chronicles of Elyria in my opinion did far better job.
Totally agree. Seeing a creature getting modeled is cool, but it really doesn’t tell me much about what’s actually making the game work and how it’s progressing. The amount and type of progress that we are being shown is very lackluster.
Here is a breakdown of the last 6 months of content and reveals (I also posted it a few comments ago):
1/7/2019 - Cursed Charger design (a backer item)
10/11/2019 - Forest of Erithria map (more BR content that almost no one plays)
9/19/2019 - Tidebreaker design (a backer item)
8/9/2019 - Horse design
7/30/2019 - Short Story (Rocky Beginnings)
7/16/2019 Creative Director’s Letter (which basically only contained one new and interesting thing - a 5 minute video on the Mayoral Caravan System)
6/27/2019 - Developer Diaries Animation
6/22/2019 - Short Story (A Fell Venture)
5/28/2019 - Developer Diaries Weapon Modeling
The two backer items barely qualify as meaningful content because they are paid cosmetics which Intrepid is full of before the game released. This is especially concerning when almost every skin they have showcased the design process of is a paid cosmetic.
The Forest of Erithria map is just a map for a BR that almost no one wants, plays or likes. I understand they’ll use some of the same assets in the MMORPG, but still... when the BR flops as bad as it has why invest more resources into it?
The short stories can barely be considered meaningful content that showcases what they’ve been working on. It shows close to nothing about the development of the game.
This leaves us with the horse design video, the creative director’s letter (which basically only revealed a little bit of information the mayoral caravan system), and the two developer diaries on animation and weapon modeling.
That is almost 6 months where all we’ve received that is of meaning towards actual MMO development is those 4 things mentioned above. That’s not much at all for an open development game.
I know there’s also the monthly live-streams, which I appreciate because we get to see the team and have them talk a bit, but those also barely reveal any new information.
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Wandering MistModerator, Member, Founder, Kickstarter, Alpha One
So, coming back to this thread and reading all the comments, I have a question for everyone: Do you believe that Intrepid are not working hard enough on this game? You say they should be more open about the development and provide more information, so does that mean you don't trust them?
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VmanGmanMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
So, coming back to this thread and reading all the comments, I have a question for everyone: Do you believe that Intrepid are not working hard enough on this game? You say they should be more open about the development and provide more information, so does that mean you don't trust them?
My point is that they claimed to have open and transparent development. Since they do not have a very good open development model I’m left with two options to believe:
1. They don’t work hard enough to have enough stuff to show us.
2. They have decided to do more Of a closed development (which would be fine).
The reason I made this post is in hopes that the second option is true and if so to urge Intrepid to be straight forward with us and tell us that they are doing more of a closed development. That way we have honest communication and correct expectations because otherwise Intrepid is painted in a bad light. As it stands right now they still advertise themselves as a very open studio which they’re really not. At least in my opinion which you can see in the outline of the last 6 months’ reveals and communication for example.
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Wandering MistModerator, Member, Founder, Kickstarter, Alpha One
So, coming back to this thread and reading all the comments, I have a question for everyone: Do you believe that Intrepid are not working hard enough on this game? You say they should be more open about the development and provide more information, so does that mean you don't trust them?
My point is that they claimed to have open and transparent development. Since they do not have a very good open development model I’m left with two options to believe:
1. They don’t work hard enough to have enough stuff to show us.
2. They have decided to do more Of a closed development (which would be fine).
The reason I made this post is in hopes that the second option is true and if so to urge Intrepid to be straight forward with us and tell us that they are doing more of a closed development. That way we have honest communication and correct expectations because otherwise Intrepid is painted in a bad light. As it stands right now they still advertise themselves as a very open studio which they’re really not. At least in my opinion which you can see in the outline of the last 6 months’ reveals and communication for example.
"Open" and "closed" are all very relative terms, and quite frankly by most games standards, Ashes development has been very open. There is a third option that you should consider, which is that the things they have been working on aren't easily shown to the public. A lot of the work they have done in the last few months has been netcode and background systems to make the servers run smoothly. How do you propose they show us their progress on that?
This (and other threads on this forum) constantly make me wonder how much do the players know about games development.
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VmanGmanMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
So, coming back to this thread and reading all the comments, I have a question for everyone: Do you believe that Intrepid are not working hard enough on this game? You say they should be more open about the development and provide more information, so does that mean you don't trust them?
My point is that they claimed to have open and transparent development. Since they do not have a very good open development model I’m left with two options to believe:
1. They don’t work hard enough to have enough stuff to show us.
2. They have decided to do more Of a closed development (which would be fine).
The reason I made this post is in hopes that the second option is true and if so to urge Intrepid to be straight forward with us and tell us that they are doing more of a closed development. That way we have honest communication and correct expectations because otherwise Intrepid is painted in a bad light. As it stands right now they still advertise themselves as a very open studio which they’re really not. At least in my opinion which you can see in the outline of the last 6 months’ reveals and communication for example.
"Open" and "closed" are all very relative terms, and quite frankly by most games standards, Ashes development has been very open. There is a third option that you should consider, which is that the things they have been working on aren't easily shown to the public. A lot of the work they have done in the last few months has been netcode and background systems to make the servers run smoothly. How do you propose they show us their progress on that?
This (and other threads on this forum) constantly make me wonder how much do the players know about games development.
Ashes has been under development for three years now. Ramped up more the last two years, but it’s been about 3 years nonetheless.
After three years we still don’t know details about races, classes, node types (some of them because others they have talked about), religions, professions, resources and many other basic world building elements. I understand that the last 6 months they’ve worked on code. But it’s been 3 years and there’s so much that hasn’t been disclosed yet. All the way from Kickstarter Steven has said that he wants the community to be very involved in the development process and that he wants this process to be very open. A paid cosmetic animation reveal sprinkled around now and then is not open development. Most of the stuff they put out is literally breadcrumbs. What about all those basic elements I mentioned above?
So what if they’re not done? Isn’t that what development is? A constant iterative process? Show us what they’ve worked on and when they add more/change it show it again...
After three years they can’t reveal more about races, classes, node types (some of them because others they have talked about), religions, professions, resources, etc?
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T ElfMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I'm hoping after the move to the new building that information will again open up for us.
Ashes has been under development for three years now. Ramped up more the last two years, but it’s been about 3 years nonetheless.
Its been less than 2 years.
The game was in pre-development before, during and just after he kickstarter, and it wasnt until the end of the first round of hires that actual production started - putting it logically in early 2018.
It wasn't until either late last year or early this year that full production began.
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VmanGmanMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Ashes has been under development for three years now. Ramped up more the last two years, but it’s been about 3 years nonetheless.
Its been less than 2 years.
The game was in pre-development before, during and just after he kickstarter, and it wasnt until the end of the first round of hires that actual production started - putting it logically in early 2018.
It wasn't until either late last year or early this year that full production began.
You’re a lunatic and you have no idea what you’re talking about. It’s a waste time conversing with you about Ashes of Creation.
Ashes has been under development for three years now. Ramped up more the last two years, but it’s been about 3 years nonetheless.
Its been less than 2 years.
The game was in pre-development before, during and just after he kickstarter, and it wasnt until the end of the first round of hires that actual production started - putting it logically in early 2018.
It wasn't until either late last year or early this year that full production began.
You’re a lunatic and you have no idea what you’re talking about. It’s a waste time conversing with you about Ashes of Creation.
What, you think it counts as "develooment" of an MMO when you have 4 people on staff?
In order to start development, you need staff. Intrepid didn't have anything near a base level of staff until early 2018.
I'm not sure who you think it is that was developing the game 18 months before that.
All of the assets from the kickstarter and such were out of the box UE4 assets, some with minor changes (some without any).
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VarkunMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
As I have said before we will not see any great upswing in information about the MMO until Intrepid has a firm date in mind for Alpha 1. That date may or may not be revealed to us. The information we all crave so much is to be used as a marketing tool to push more package sales for Alpha 2 as the hype builds towards Alpha 1 once they have a firm date.
To me this just makes perfect sense and I will just cool my jets until we get that Alpha 1 date and the information dumps leading up to said date. I know it is hard to be patient but that is what we need to be at this point in time IMO.
Close your eyes spread your arms and always trust your cape.
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VmanGmanMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
As I have said before we will not see any great upswing in information about the MMO until Intrepid has a firm date in mind for Alpha 1. That date may or may not be revealed to us. The information we all crave so much is to be used as a marketing tool to push more package sales for Alpha 2 as the hype builds towards Alpha 1 once they have a firm date.
To me this just makes perfect sense and I will just cool my jets until we get that Alpha 1 date and the information dumps leading up to said date. I know it is hard to be patient but that is what we need to be at this point in time IMO.
I understand that and that makes sense. The problem is that that’s not what they communicated. They told us that they want to have open development. What you’re describing is closed development.
So my problem is that they’re not speaking the truth. I would totally be fine with closed development if they told us that they are in fact proceeding with closed development. However, they are still trying to reap the good vibes of a cool open development company while actually doing mostly closed development as you described. Untruthfulness is my biggest issue here.
As I have said before we will not see any great upswing in information about the MMO until Intrepid has a firm date in mind for Alpha 1. That date may or may not be revealed to us. The information we all crave so much is to be used as a marketing tool to push more package sales for Alpha 2 as the hype builds towards Alpha 1 once they have a firm date.
To me this just makes perfect sense and I will just cool my jets until we get that Alpha 1 date and the information dumps leading up to said date. I know it is hard to be patient but that is what we need to be at this point in time IMO.
I understand that and that makes sense. The problem is that that’s not what they communicated. They told us that they want to have open development. What you’re describing is closed development.
So my problem is that they’re not speaking the truth. I would totally be fine with closed development if they told us that they are in fact proceeding with closed development. However, they are still trying to reap the good vibes of a cool open development company while actually doing mostly closed development as you described. Untruthfulness is my biggest issue here.
What exactly was your take away from the quote Dygz linked earlier? Did you look it up for the context around why it was stated?
The fact that we have had (mostly?) monthly livestreams for this game for as long as we have means it is not closed development in comparison to almost all other games.
Look at Diablo 4, since it has been mentioned. It started development in 2016 (maybe early 2017 at the latest), but we heard nothing at all about it for almost 3 years.
That is closed development.
Since open/closed is not black and white, but rather a scale, it is almost impossible to state that something is actually open or actually closed (Diablo 4 was actually a really good example until not that long ago, as most people didn't know it was actively under development).
What we have now - on a scale from Elder Scrolls through to Star Citizen is somewhat closer to Star Citizen than it is an Elder Scrolls game.
Now, if you had have said it is not as open as you would like, that would be fine, no one could argue with that.
But to claim that what we have is closed development - and then make the comparison to Diablo 4 - is utterly insane.
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Wandering MistModerator, Member, Founder, Kickstarter, Alpha One
As I have said before we will not see any great upswing in information about the MMO until Intrepid has a firm date in mind for Alpha 1. That date may or may not be revealed to us. The information we all crave so much is to be used as a marketing tool to push more package sales for Alpha 2 as the hype builds towards Alpha 1 once they have a firm date.
To me this just makes perfect sense and I will just cool my jets until we get that Alpha 1 date and the information dumps leading up to said date. I know it is hard to be patient but that is what we need to be at this point in time IMO.
I understand that and that makes sense. The problem is that that’s not what they communicated. They told us that they want to have open development. What you’re describing is closed development.
So my problem is that they’re not speaking the truth. I would totally be fine with closed development if they told us that they are in fact proceeding with closed development. However, they are still trying to reap the good vibes of a cool open development company while actually doing mostly closed development as you described. Untruthfulness is my biggest issue here.
The problem here is that you have it in your mind what "open development" means, despite having no idea about games development. And because Intrepid haven't met your "open development" standards you believe they have lied to you.
Did Intrepid promise to show us gameplay footage regularly as part of their open development? No. So in what way have they lied to us?
As I have said before we will not see any great upswing in information about the MMO until Intrepid has a firm date in mind for Alpha 1. That date may or may not be revealed to us. The information we all crave so much is to be used as a marketing tool to push more package sales for Alpha 2 as the hype builds towards Alpha 1 once they have a firm date.
To me this just makes perfect sense and I will just cool my jets until we get that Alpha 1 date and the information dumps leading up to said date. I know it is hard to be patient but that is what we need to be at this point in time IMO.
I understand that and that makes sense. The problem is that that’s not what they communicated. They told us that they want to have open development. What you’re describing is closed development.
So my problem is that they’re not speaking the truth. I would totally be fine with closed development if they told us that they are in fact proceeding with closed development. However, they are still trying to reap the good vibes of a cool open development company while actually doing mostly closed development as you described. Untruthfulness is my biggest issue here.
The problem here is that you have it in your mind what "open development" means, despite having no idea about games development. And because Intrepid haven't met your "open development" standards you believe they have lied to you.
Did Intrepid promise to show us gameplay footage regularly as part of their open development? No. So in what way have they lied to us?
You are kinda missing the point that is trying to be conveyed here.
What vmangman is trying to say that there is a lack of communication betweed the studio and the customers.
Its not about wanting to see gameplay or being lied to.
We are interested if IS is still the open development transparent studio which we have a feel it currently isnt with the lack of the basic info about the core features of the game.
So far the only feature we have rough idea how it will work is the nodes which is still missing a divine node.
I mean how much info did we even learn about the game since Kickstarter days? I would say not much.
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VmanGmanMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
As I have said before we will not see any great upswing in information about the MMO until Intrepid has a firm date in mind for Alpha 1. That date may or may not be revealed to us. The information we all crave so much is to be used as a marketing tool to push more package sales for Alpha 2 as the hype builds towards Alpha 1 once they have a firm date.
To me this just makes perfect sense and I will just cool my jets until we get that Alpha 1 date and the information dumps leading up to said date. I know it is hard to be patient but that is what we need to be at this point in time IMO.
I understand that and that makes sense. The problem is that that’s not what they communicated. They told us that they want to have open development. What you’re describing is closed development.
So my problem is that they’re not speaking the truth. I would totally be fine with closed development if they told us that they are in fact proceeding with closed development. However, they are still trying to reap the good vibes of a cool open development company while actually doing mostly closed development as you described. Untruthfulness is my biggest issue here.
The problem here is that you have it in your mind what "open development" means, despite having no idea about games development. And because Intrepid haven't met your "open development" standards you believe they have lied to you.
Did Intrepid promise to show us gameplay footage regularly as part of their open development? No. So in what way have they lied to us?
Did you even read my posts? Did I ask for gameplay? Or did I ask for basic world building information such as races, classes, nodes, religions, professions, resources, etc.
I do have my own idea of open development which I think makes sense. Here’s the post where I explain why I think that my expectation is reasonable and why Intrepid’s idea of open development is not:
“Ashes has been under development for three years now. Ramped up more the last two years, but it’s been about 3 years nonetheless.
After three years we still don’t know details about races, classes, node types (some of them because others they have talked about), religions, professions, resources and many other basic world building elements. I understand that the last 6 months they’ve worked on code. But it’s been 3 years and there’s so much that hasn’t been disclosed yet. All the way from Kickstarter Steven has said that he wants the community to be very involved in the development process and that he wants this process to be very open. A paid cosmetic animation reveal sprinkled around now and then is not open development. Most of the stuff they put out is literally breadcrumbs. What about all those basic elements I mentioned above?
So what if they’re not done? Isn’t that what development is? A constant iterative process? Show us what they’ve worked on and when they add more/change it show it again...
After three years they can’t reveal more about races, classes, node types (some of them because others they have talked about), religions, professions, resources, etc?”
DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited November 2019
We've learned quite a bit about the game since KS - classes and nodes and other gameplay features. We've also had a chance to play with combat, explore the environments, experience building destruction firsthand and fight some mobs.
Way, way earlier than what is available at this point of development in previous MMORPGs.
We've been at a standstill info-wise for about a year. A couple of Node articles.
We should be getting a steadier stream of articles in the last 5 months... that's disappointing based on what the stated plan was...
That says something about when we can expect the game to release, but...
Game development has delays.
I'd rather have the team work on development than work on keeping us informed.
EQNext flopped because the devs focused to much on keeping the community happy with open development.
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VmanGmanMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
We've learned quite a bit about the game since KS - classes and nodes and other gameplay features. We've also had a chance to play with combat, explore the environments, experience building destruction firsthand and fight some mobs.
Way, way earlier than what is available at this point of development in previous MMORPGs.
We've been at a standstill info-wise for about a year. A couple of Node articles.
We should be getting a steadier stream of articles in the last 5 months... that's disappointing based on what the stated plan was...
That says something about when we can expect the game to release, but...
Game development has delays.
I'd rather have the team work on development than work on keeping us informed.
EQNext flopped because the devs focused to much on keeping the community happy with open development.
Stop clowning. Attempts at open development isn’t even close to the top of the list as to why EQ Next failed.
Which part of a request for basic world building information such as classes, races, nodes, religions, professions, resources, etc. is too difficult to understand. These are normal groundwork elements that don’t necessarily need a lot of coding to discuss as a development team and plan for your MMO. Especially so after three years of development. And they don’t even have to have the final iteration. Isn’t that what development is? A constant iterative process where things change?
The issue is that they promised open development, but instead we get monthly live-streams with barely any new information, videos of paid cosmetics being developed and the occasional interesting blog like the last “Know Your Nodes” which dropped about 6 months ago.
We as the community, especially as a financially supporting community, get to hold the developers accountable. They promised open development. What we currently have can be barely considered that. If they want to go back on their word and do closed development they can totally do so, but they should be honest about it.
I’ll say it again in case you miss it: monthly live-streams with barely any new information, videos of paid cosmetics being developed and the occasional interesting blog like the last “Know Your Nodes” (that was good stuff!) which dropped about 6 months ago can be barely considered open development.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited November 2019
I happen to know straight from the devs why EQNext failed.
Discussing development internally is different than sharing info externally. Creating whatever it is they want to share externally takes time away from internal development... that includes early access, like Landmark and Apoc.
The Ashes devs have been honest, they just can’t meet community “deadlines”.
How open they are currently being is subjective.
They consider themselves to be open, though less open than when they first started.
Some players consider them to be closed.
Nothing really you can do about that besides whine.
What is factually true is that we have learned some details about classes and nodes and combat, etc. since Kickstarter.
You the one that needs to stop clowning - and trolling, Mr. Pot.
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VmanGmanMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I happen to know straight from the devs why EQNext failed.
Discussing development internally is different than sharing info externally. Creating whatever it is they want to share externally takes time away from internal development... that includes early access, like Landmark and Apoc.
The Ashes devs have been honest.
How open they are currently being is subjective.
They consider themselves to be open, though less open than when they first started.
Some players consider them to be closed.
Nothing really you can do about that besides whine.
What is factually true is that we have learned some details about classes and nodes and combat, etc. since Kickstarter.
You the one that needs to stop clowning - and trolling, Mr. Pot.
EQ Next failed because of technical issues. They simply could not properly implement some of their more ambitious technicalities like the Voxels into the overall gameplay. It did not fail because it tried to have too much open development.
You’re right, discussing development internally is different than discussing it externally, but that’s difference between open and closed development. And right now we’re not getting much external
communication.
You are seriously telling me that the last piece of serious information that Intrepid released being the “Know Your Nodes” blog on May 23rd (almost 6 months ago) is open development? What other meaningful piece of information have they released since then?
We have learned some details about classes, races and nodes?
Do we know anything else besides the names of the 8 classes and their 64 combinations? Do we know anything besides the names of the 9 races and concept art for some their structures? We’ve learned details about half the node types so I guess we got that. We don’t know anything about the different religions. We barely know anything about professions besides some names briefly dropped on stream.
If you think that the names of classes and races and some concept art is open development you and I might as well be speaking two different languages.
Edit: And to clarify that all of this is after 3 years of development. After three years of “open” development we have names and concept art of races and classes. 3 years.
Comments
Edit to change "Know Your Nodes 3" to "Nodes 3" in first sentence, to prevent confusion.
Exactly! Thank you for making sense of what's happening. We are literally getting more paid cosmetic updates than updates about the actual game. That's not ok and definitely not the right kind of open development. @noaani
Divine Nodes is just an article. Close to 5 months delayed.
Nodes 3 is a tech demo. Close to 2 years delayed.
It's a great way to fund an indie project. Helps pay for the development team.
I would much rather do that -I purchase cosmetics 2-3 times per year- than have the game become vaporware due to lack of funding. Already went through that with Revival.
With Apoc, at least I can run a character through a game and see what the environment will look like. I can't do that with Chronicles of Elyria and CoE has been in development longer than Ashes. We won't be able to run a character through CoE for at least another 6 months. And I've probably spent more cash on their items than I have for Ashes.
But, again, I am happy to do so because I want to financially support devs developing the game mechanics I want to play.
Due to the fact that this game was crowdfunded, the community was built up before the game was.
Development of the game itself didn't even start in ernest until last year. Saying the game systems should have been locked in years ago makes no sense in this context.
Now, I totally get where you're coming from, and in a developer/investor funded game I'd totally agree. By the time the community around the game is as old as this community is, you'd expect most major aspects of the game to be locked down - but that is only because the game would have been in development for 2 or 3 years before the game was announced and a community formed.
This is something many people on the fringes of this games community seem to forget - we were bought in to the fold 3 years earlier than we are used to.
I am fully aware of the development cycle and how long it takes.
What I mean by core mechanics is stuff like nodes etc., after all they are building the game around these systems. If they suddendly decide to rework the whole node system it could delay the game development by several months if not years.
Gotta disagree with most of these points.
1. APOC is a free testing ground that you can, if you wish to, purchase skins from. By your logic, this entire game is already a finished product, since they've monetized by crowdfunding, kickstarter, and monthly packs. I might agree with you a bit more if you had to pay a price for APOC, or maybe it was a bonus of one of the packs. The original APOC showed itself to be a flawed construct, and led them to a full reorganization of their code. If you don't consider the base combat, network changes and stability 'much change' then i don't know what to tell you.
2. We get one paid cosmetic pass once a month. We get one livestream a month. In literally any month there is anything else (that would be all of them) this statement is categorically false.
3. You are comparing 2 products from the largest MMO company in existence, with so many employees they could rush any of the three they are currently working on within a year should they wish it, with a start up company with under 50 employees. You are also comparing 2 products that have been under development for years. Diablo 3 didnt get it's 2nd xpac, as resources were diverted for the creation of overwatch, but the team were still beginning the work that would become Diablo 4. And not only has Shadowlands been in development since shortly after the release of Battle for Azeroth (Sticking with the current Blizzard habit of releasing xpacs in story pairs) It is also just that, an expansion. Comparing it to the ground up creation of a new ip is liking thinking building an entire house is just as easy as redoing your attic. Base wow took over 7 years to create. IS is well within the appropriate dev schedule of an mmo.
As has been stated earlier, transparency is a subjective term. IS has been giving consistent new info, and whether we feel that it's enough, or that it's only in one of the APOC modes, we don't get to say they aren't doing anything or showing anything, without sounding dumb as bricks. Also stop normalizing 'Predatory Monetazation' not every micro transaction, or sale is. Calling everything that makes it seem not as bad when it actually exists. Like in various sporting game franchises, eastern pay to win games, and any of several manipulative lootbox practices.
This is a point that seems to keep escaping people.
If you are aware of the development cycle of games, why did you compare Ashes and what we know about it unfavorably to Diablo 4 and what we know about it?
Development on Diablo 4 started almost 2 years before development on Ashes - if you guy by Blizzard job listings at the time.
If you want to compare Ashes to Diablo 4 in terms of open development and such, compare Ashes now to Diablo 4 in early 2018. That way, you are comparing games with each other after a similar amount of development time.
1. Why? People were already buying stuff for the MMO and they can't even play it. Technically that means it's monetized. I also feel like you use monetize as a blanket statement and ignore how it is monetized. It's a free game with an option battle pass and some cosmetics, cosmetics that also transfer to their other game.
2. Their isn't much more info to give until they are further in development. They gave us the high level plan for features but giving us more details are pointless as they will most likely be changed once they start playing with them in game.
3. Is your only grounds for comparing these games to ashes is how much dev time you predict to be left and when in development these games were announced? You compare Diablo 4 which isn't an MMO and Shadowlands which is an expansion for an existing game. You realize why that isn't a fair comparison right? They are still trying to develop a game that will support the player numbers they want.
Yes, it would be nice to be testing nodes as their is a lot to them but it also dependent on them getting other systems running before it can be fully tested. They are in the process of making an optimized game that will support a large number of players which i think is something the node system needs before it can be thoroughly tested.
I dont require to see gameplay footage or a test enviroment to test features, what I want is dev diares like the node series
more info like this for example:
https://ashesofcreation.com/news/node-series-part-one
Know your nodes series
https://ashesofcreation.com/news/2019-04-30-developer-diaries-building-tool
etc.
I want more info about the concepts and their thoughts how are they actually going to implenent it.
Seeing a new creature animated is cool but entirely useless for me.
If you want a better example from crownfunded MMO, Chronicles of Elyria in my opinion did far better job.
Totally agree. Seeing a creature getting modeled is cool, but it really doesn’t tell me much about what’s actually making the game work and how it’s progressing. The amount and type of progress that we are being shown is very lackluster.
Here is a breakdown of the last 6 months of content and reveals (I also posted it a few comments ago):
1/7/2019 - Cursed Charger design (a backer item)
10/11/2019 - Forest of Erithria map (more BR content that almost no one plays)
9/19/2019 - Tidebreaker design (a backer item)
8/9/2019 - Horse design
7/30/2019 - Short Story (Rocky Beginnings)
7/16/2019 Creative Director’s Letter (which basically only contained one new and interesting thing - a 5 minute video on the Mayoral Caravan System)
6/27/2019 - Developer Diaries Animation
6/22/2019 - Short Story (A Fell Venture)
5/28/2019 - Developer Diaries Weapon Modeling
The two backer items barely qualify as meaningful content because they are paid cosmetics which Intrepid is full of before the game released. This is especially concerning when almost every skin they have showcased the design process of is a paid cosmetic.
The Forest of Erithria map is just a map for a BR that almost no one wants, plays or likes. I understand they’ll use some of the same assets in the MMORPG, but still... when the BR flops as bad as it has why invest more resources into it?
The short stories can barely be considered meaningful content that showcases what they’ve been working on. It shows close to nothing about the development of the game.
This leaves us with the horse design video, the creative director’s letter (which basically only revealed a little bit of information the mayoral caravan system), and the two developer diaries on animation and weapon modeling.
That is almost 6 months where all we’ve received that is of meaning towards actual MMO development is those 4 things mentioned above. That’s not much at all for an open development game.
I know there’s also the monthly live-streams, which I appreciate because we get to see the team and have them talk a bit, but those also barely reveal any new information.
My point is that they claimed to have open and transparent development. Since they do not have a very good open development model I’m left with two options to believe:
1. They don’t work hard enough to have enough stuff to show us.
2. They have decided to do more Of a closed development (which would be fine).
The reason I made this post is in hopes that the second option is true and if so to urge Intrepid to be straight forward with us and tell us that they are doing more of a closed development. That way we have honest communication and correct expectations because otherwise Intrepid is painted in a bad light. As it stands right now they still advertise themselves as a very open studio which they’re really not. At least in my opinion which you can see in the outline of the last 6 months’ reveals and communication for example.
"Open" and "closed" are all very relative terms, and quite frankly by most games standards, Ashes development has been very open. There is a third option that you should consider, which is that the things they have been working on aren't easily shown to the public. A lot of the work they have done in the last few months has been netcode and background systems to make the servers run smoothly. How do you propose they show us their progress on that?
This (and other threads on this forum) constantly make me wonder how much do the players know about games development.
Ashes has been under development for three years now. Ramped up more the last two years, but it’s been about 3 years nonetheless.
After three years we still don’t know details about races, classes, node types (some of them because others they have talked about), religions, professions, resources and many other basic world building elements. I understand that the last 6 months they’ve worked on code. But it’s been 3 years and there’s so much that hasn’t been disclosed yet. All the way from Kickstarter Steven has said that he wants the community to be very involved in the development process and that he wants this process to be very open. A paid cosmetic animation reveal sprinkled around now and then is not open development. Most of the stuff they put out is literally breadcrumbs. What about all those basic elements I mentioned above?
So what if they’re not done? Isn’t that what development is? A constant iterative process? Show us what they’ve worked on and when they add more/change it show it again...
After three years they can’t reveal more about races, classes, node types (some of them because others they have talked about), religions, professions, resources, etc?
Formerly T-Elf
The game was in pre-development before, during and just after he kickstarter, and it wasnt until the end of the first round of hires that actual production started - putting it logically in early 2018.
It wasn't until either late last year or early this year that full production began.
You’re a lunatic and you have no idea what you’re talking about. It’s a waste time conversing with you about Ashes of Creation.
What, you think it counts as "develooment" of an MMO when you have 4 people on staff?
In order to start development, you need staff. Intrepid didn't have anything near a base level of staff until early 2018.
I'm not sure who you think it is that was developing the game 18 months before that.
All of the assets from the kickstarter and such were out of the box UE4 assets, some with minor changes (some without any).
To me this just makes perfect sense and I will just cool my jets until we get that Alpha 1 date and the information dumps leading up to said date. I know it is hard to be patient but that is what we need to be at this point in time IMO.
I understand that and that makes sense. The problem is that that’s not what they communicated. They told us that they want to have open development. What you’re describing is closed development.
So my problem is that they’re not speaking the truth. I would totally be fine with closed development if they told us that they are in fact proceeding with closed development. However, they are still trying to reap the good vibes of a cool open development company while actually doing mostly closed development as you described. Untruthfulness is my biggest issue here.
The fact that we have had (mostly?) monthly livestreams for this game for as long as we have means it is not closed development in comparison to almost all other games.
Look at Diablo 4, since it has been mentioned. It started development in 2016 (maybe early 2017 at the latest), but we heard nothing at all about it for almost 3 years.
That is closed development.
Since open/closed is not black and white, but rather a scale, it is almost impossible to state that something is actually open or actually closed (Diablo 4 was actually a really good example until not that long ago, as most people didn't know it was actively under development).
What we have now - on a scale from Elder Scrolls through to Star Citizen is somewhat closer to Star Citizen than it is an Elder Scrolls game.
Now, if you had have said it is not as open as you would like, that would be fine, no one could argue with that.
But to claim that what we have is closed development - and then make the comparison to Diablo 4 - is utterly insane.
The problem here is that you have it in your mind what "open development" means, despite having no idea about games development. And because Intrepid haven't met your "open development" standards you believe they have lied to you.
Did Intrepid promise to show us gameplay footage regularly as part of their open development? No. So in what way have they lied to us?
What vmangman is trying to say that there is a lack of communication betweed the studio and the customers.
Its not about wanting to see gameplay or being lied to.
We are interested if IS is still the open development transparent studio which we have a feel it currently isnt with the lack of the basic info about the core features of the game.
So far the only feature we have rough idea how it will work is the nodes which is still missing a divine node.
I mean how much info did we even learn about the game since Kickstarter days? I would say not much.
Did you even read my posts? Did I ask for gameplay? Or did I ask for basic world building information such as races, classes, nodes, religions, professions, resources, etc.
I do have my own idea of open development which I think makes sense. Here’s the post where I explain why I think that my expectation is reasonable and why Intrepid’s idea of open development is not:
“Ashes has been under development for three years now. Ramped up more the last two years, but it’s been about 3 years nonetheless.
After three years we still don’t know details about races, classes, node types (some of them because others they have talked about), religions, professions, resources and many other basic world building elements. I understand that the last 6 months they’ve worked on code. But it’s been 3 years and there’s so much that hasn’t been disclosed yet. All the way from Kickstarter Steven has said that he wants the community to be very involved in the development process and that he wants this process to be very open. A paid cosmetic animation reveal sprinkled around now and then is not open development. Most of the stuff they put out is literally breadcrumbs. What about all those basic elements I mentioned above?
So what if they’re not done? Isn’t that what development is? A constant iterative process? Show us what they’ve worked on and when they add more/change it show it again...
After three years they can’t reveal more about races, classes, node types (some of them because others they have talked about), religions, professions, resources, etc?”
Thank you @Mesis. You get it.
Way, way earlier than what is available at this point of development in previous MMORPGs.
We've been at a standstill info-wise for about a year. A couple of Node articles.
We should be getting a steadier stream of articles in the last 5 months... that's disappointing based on what the stated plan was...
That says something about when we can expect the game to release, but...
Game development has delays.
I'd rather have the team work on development than work on keeping us informed.
EQNext flopped because the devs focused to much on keeping the community happy with open development.
Stop clowning. Attempts at open development isn’t even close to the top of the list as to why EQ Next failed.
Which part of a request for basic world building information such as classes, races, nodes, religions, professions, resources, etc. is too difficult to understand. These are normal groundwork elements that don’t necessarily need a lot of coding to discuss as a development team and plan for your MMO. Especially so after three years of development. And they don’t even have to have the final iteration. Isn’t that what development is? A constant iterative process where things change?
The issue is that they promised open development, but instead we get monthly live-streams with barely any new information, videos of paid cosmetics being developed and the occasional interesting blog like the last “Know Your Nodes” which dropped about 6 months ago.
We as the community, especially as a financially supporting community, get to hold the developers accountable. They promised open development. What we currently have can be barely considered that. If they want to go back on their word and do closed development they can totally do so, but they should be honest about it.
I’ll say it again in case you miss it: monthly live-streams with barely any new information, videos of paid cosmetics being developed and the occasional interesting blog like the last “Know Your Nodes” (that was good stuff!) which dropped about 6 months ago can be barely considered open development.
Discussing development internally is different than sharing info externally. Creating whatever it is they want to share externally takes time away from internal development... that includes early access, like Landmark and Apoc.
The Ashes devs have been honest, they just can’t meet community “deadlines”.
How open they are currently being is subjective.
They consider themselves to be open, though less open than when they first started.
Some players consider them to be closed.
Nothing really you can do about that besides whine.
What is factually true is that we have learned some details about classes and nodes and combat, etc. since Kickstarter.
You the one that needs to stop clowning - and trolling, Mr. Pot.
EQ Next failed because of technical issues. They simply could not properly implement some of their more ambitious technicalities like the Voxels into the overall gameplay. It did not fail because it tried to have too much open development.
You’re right, discussing development internally is different than discussing it externally, but that’s difference between open and closed development. And right now we’re not getting much external
communication.
You are seriously telling me that the last piece of serious information that Intrepid released being the “Know Your Nodes” blog on May 23rd (almost 6 months ago) is open development? What other meaningful piece of information have they released since then?
We have learned some details about classes, races and nodes?
Do we know anything else besides the names of the 8 classes and their 64 combinations? Do we know anything besides the names of the 9 races and concept art for some their structures? We’ve learned details about half the node types so I guess we got that. We don’t know anything about the different religions. We barely know anything about professions besides some names briefly dropped on stream.
If you think that the names of classes and races and some concept art is open development you and I might as well be speaking two different languages.
Edit: And to clarify that all of this is after 3 years of development. After three years of “open” development we have names and concept art of races and classes. 3 years.