Damokles wrote: » Its a good attempt, but it would also ruin crafting classes like the siege engine crafters. Here is some information that we got a while ago: - certain siege mechanics are locked to group sizes - there siege summons (like a siege golem), which require multiple summoners to work together - there are multiple stages in a siege battle Another thing: I think that siege weapons will be expensive as fuck. A guild will need some time to prepare their siege equipment, and when you use it once, its gone. (Thats what i think at least) It is also not clear how rare the recepies for siege equipment will be, not all recepies can be simply bought from npcs after all.
vmangman wrote: » Damokles wrote: » Its a good attempt, but it would also ruin crafting classes like the siege engine crafters. Here is some information that we got a while ago: - certain siege mechanics are locked to group sizes - there siege summons (like a siege golem), which require multiple summoners to work together - there are multiple stages in a siege battle Another thing: I think that siege weapons will be expensive as fuck. A guild will need some time to prepare their siege equipment, and when you use it once, its gone. (Thats what i think at least) It is also not clear how rare the recepies for siege equipment will be, not all recepies can be simply bought from npcs after all. I'm not talking about siege equipment. I'm talking about siege declaration items. Intrepid has said that in order to declare an attack on a node you first need some turn in stuff. That could mean resources, crafted items, rare drops, quests etc. They haven't explained exactly what will be required of people to declare a siege, but they said it's supposed to be increasingly difficult to acquire those prerequisites depending on the level of the node you are trying to attack. So again, I'm not referring to siege equipment or summons.
Damokles wrote: » Ohhh okay. Well the item required to obtain declare the siege is obtained through a quest, with risiing difficulty depending on the sieged node level.
vmangman wrote: » Damokles wrote: » Ohhh okay. Well the item required to obtain declare the siege is obtained through a quest, with risiing difficulty depending on the sieged node level. I understand. We don't know that it's going to be just one quest item. Even if it were, my original post's suggestion and question still stands. Edit: word
noaani wrote: » I'm not sure why any such limitation would be required. Sieges are expensive - very expensive. If any one group of players is able to declare multiple sieges and actually has the resources to not be a laughable mess at them, I see no reason why they shouldn't be able to declare multiple sieges. On top of the timed restrictions placed on declaring sieges, don't forget there are also restrictions if you are a vassal node - and if you are spending resources on multiple sieges rather than leveling up your node, you are likely to be a vassal.
Damokles wrote: » vmangman wrote: » Damokles wrote: » Ohhh okay. Well the item required to obtain declare the siege is obtained through a quest, with risiing difficulty depending on the sieged node level. I understand. We don't know that it's going to be just one quest item. Even if it were, my original post's suggestion and question still stands. Edit: word Yeah well... I think that these quest items that you get to declare a war are one time use only and pretty specific for each node. So it would not make much sense to just collect tons of them for months. Each of them represent tons of recources and the leading council of your node will want to regain those resources as fast as possible.
Ventharien wrote: » I guess it'll all depend on what those other resources are. If they're regular, or higher level mats used in many other recipes, like ores, or wood etc. it shouldn't have a expiration. If it's things you find solely for the creation of the, let's call it Siege flag, i think you're right. After all, from a bunch of the segments we've heard, it seems they want each siege declaration and farm to be a dedicated effort at a specific target. Not "We need to have things to be able to siege" but instead "we need to gather to siege x" And since people are more than welcome to attack nodes without besieging and possibly destroying a node, perhaps to inhibit their growth just enough to put them in line to be a vassal, this seems more than fair.
vmangman wrote: » noaani wrote: » I'm not sure why any such limitation would be required. Sieges are expensive - very expensive. If any one group of players is able to declare multiple sieges and actually has the resources to not be a laughable mess at them, I see no reason why they shouldn't be able to declare multiple sieges. On top of the timed restrictions placed on declaring sieges, don't forget there are also restrictions if you are a vassal node - and if you are spending resources on multiple sieges rather than leveling up your node, you are likely to be a vassal. The issue isn't declaring multiple sieges in a natural progression. What i'm saying is that what if a group of people stockpiles siege declaration items for 6 months (arbitrary number meant to represent a very long time) they can then go on a rampage. This is especially problematic if one of the strongest nodes on the server does this. If for some reason people in an already strong node are able to stockpile these items/resources and they maintain their power it can make it very difficult for others to contest them due to all the possible sieges the powerful/stockpiling node can launch. I'm just saying that I can see how being able to stockpile siege declaration items can have bad repercussions. Maybe the game balances itself out through other systems that Intrepid would implement, but I think the stockpiling, if available, could be an issue long term.
Gimlog wrote: » They prevents it by the preparation period and the safe period after it
noaani wrote: » So we know for a fact that different levels of node require different difficulties of quest in order to gain the item to siege. We also know that the cooldown for declaring a siege is 20/30/40/50 days. So the quest for the siege that can be declared very 20 days is somewhat easier, and the quest for the siege that takes 50 days is somewhat harder. However, I don't see Intrepid being able to design any quest that is so time consuming that the average well organized guild wouldn't be able keep an entire metropolis' ZoI under siege as soon as each cooldown has expired. To be clear, I'm not saying it's a bad idea to have a timer or similar on the item, I just don't see how it would have any practical effect in game, as well organized players and guilds will likely be able to acquire these items as fast as they are able to use them.
vmangman wrote: » They equated siege declaration prep time to node building time not to node siege cooldown time after an attack.
noaani wrote: » vmangman wrote: » They equated siege declaration prep time to node building time not to node siege cooldown time after an attack. My understanding is that they equate a successful siege (or a siege with a chance at being successful) with leveling up a node in terms of resources and time required, as opposed to just declaring a siege. To me, this cost includes siege engines, consumables and other incidental things - and my assumption is that this is where the bulk of the expense will be found. Since it would seem that the type of siege engines you can use are dependent on the level of the node you are attacking, I would assume that siege equipment is crafted specifically for each siege.
vmangman wrote: » noaani wrote: » vmangman wrote: » They equated siege declaration prep time to node building time not to node siege cooldown time after an attack. My understanding is that they equate a successful siege (or a siege with a chance at being successful) with leveling up a node in terms of resources and time required, as opposed to just declaring a siege. To me, this cost includes siege engines, consumables and other incidental things - and my assumption is that this is where the bulk of the expense will be found. Since it would seem that the type of siege engines you can use are dependent on the level of the node you are attacking, I would assume that siege equipment is crafted specifically for each siege. Maybe you’re right and they equate the required investment to the building of a node to the required investment of successfully sieging a node and not the preparation for the siege declaration. In that case I think it would be even more important to put an expiration timer on the siege declaration item (make it so they can’t be stockpiled). Because the resources required for a successful siege (siege weapons and/or gather-able and craft-able items) will definitely be available for stockpiling. Which brings us to my previous point that a top node could heavily abuse this system and stay at the top longer than intended.
noaani wrote: » I'm still not really sure how there could be any advantage to this. Stockpiling those kind of resources is such a massive undertaking for so many people that the metropolis wouldn't be able to keep it quiet. Also, once you start talking about sieging a metropolis node, you are talking about 20% of the servers population being involved in preparation - and having to pay tax to support it. If you are a leader of a metropolis and you don't have a espionage network (or at least surveillance network) active in every other metropolis, you probably shouldn't be in that position. And this is before all the people from that metropolis coming to your node looking for somewhere with lower taxes. If you manage to miss how an entire 20% of the game world has massive forests that they are cutting down (as an example) yet the price of logs is high, you probably shouldn't be in in-game politics at all. On the other hand, if you do notice that they are up to something, what you do is you siege them. If you win, their preparations are potentially taken back to zero. To me, this kind of thing isn't abusing the system, it is using the system.
vmangman wrote: » noaani wrote: » I'm still not really sure how there could be any advantage to this. Stockpiling those kind of resources is such a massive undertaking for so many people that the metropolis wouldn't be able to keep it quiet. Also, once you start talking about sieging a metropolis node, you are talking about 20% of the servers population being involved in preparation - and having to pay tax to support it. If you are a leader of a metropolis and you don't have a espionage network (or at least surveillance network) active in every other metropolis, you probably shouldn't be in that position. And this is before all the people from that metropolis coming to your node looking for somewhere with lower taxes. If you manage to miss how an entire 20% of the game world has massive forests that they are cutting down (as an example) yet the price of logs is high, you probably shouldn't be in in-game politics at all. On the other hand, if you do notice that they are up to something, what you do is you siege them. If you win, their preparations are potentially taken back to zero. To me, this kind of thing isn't abusing the system, it is using the system. That’s a lot of guessing and speculation on how things would work. But even so... you basically proved my point when you said: “On the other hand, if you do notice that they are up to something, what you do is you siege them. If you win, their preparations are potentially taken back to zero”. If you are able to declare a siege on other nodes on a dime right when you find out they are preparing to siege you, the stockpiling method is even more powerful. By that design logic the moment you find out someone is preparing to siege you, you can then use your stockpiled quest items and resources to declare a siege on them and attack within 5 days at most (metropolis level). If the system didn’t allow for siege declaration items to be stockpiled (by having an expiration date for example) you would have to start the process of the siege declaration quest when you find out about their attack. This would then in turn delay your attack (as opposed to declaring right away with stockpiled quest items) and thus making the playing field more even. Creating a race instead of allowing the top dog to thwart any potential aggressor with their ready to siege stockpile.
Damokles wrote: » vmangman wrote: » That’s a lot of guessing and speculation on how things would work. But even so... you basically proved my point when you said: “On the other hand, if you do notice that they are up to something, what you do is you siege them. If you win, their preparations are potentially taken back to zero”. If you are able to declare a siege on other nodes on a dime right when you find out they are preparing to siege you, the stockpiling method is even more powerful. By that design logic the moment you find out someone is preparing to siege you, you can then use your stockpiled quest items and resources to declare a siege on them and attack within 5 days at most (metropolis level). If the system didn’t allow for siege declaration items to be stockpiled (by having an expiration date for example) you would have to start the process of the siege declaration quest when you find out about their attack. This would then in turn delay your attack (as opposed to declaring right away with stockpiled quest items) and thus making the playing field more even. Creating a race instead of allowing the top dog to thwart any potential aggressor with their ready to siege stockpile. You are also guessing and speculating on the point of people being able to stockpile those items though... All we can do at this point is guess and speculate. It could be possible that sieged nodes will be able to just repurpose siege equipment to defend their node. A trebuchet can just as easily fire from behind a citywall after all.Sieging will require a similar amount of resources and time to what it took to develop the node being sieged. Siege equipment will need to be crafted based on the stage of the defending node. Mayors/governments allocate resources, taxes, and quests to help develop node defenses. Once a siege is declared there is a period of time before the siege will commence, determined by the size of the node You will require as many resources to siege a metropolis as it took to make that metro, those are tons of resources and any person will require multiple days to gather those.
vmangman wrote: » That’s a lot of guessing and speculation on how things would work. But even so... you basically proved my point when you said: “On the other hand, if you do notice that they are up to something, what you do is you siege them. If you win, their preparations are potentially taken back to zero”. If you are able to declare a siege on other nodes on a dime right when you find out they are preparing to siege you, the stockpiling method is even more powerful. By that design logic the moment you find out someone is preparing to siege you, you can then use your stockpiled quest items and resources to declare a siege on them and attack within 5 days at most (metropolis level). If the system didn’t allow for siege declaration items to be stockpiled (by having an expiration date for example) you would have to start the process of the siege declaration quest when you find out about their attack. This would then in turn delay your attack (as opposed to declaring right away with stockpiled quest items) and thus making the playing field more even. Creating a race instead of allowing the top dog to thwart any potential aggressor with their ready to siege stockpile.
