Well still have some more good things to say about League of Legends did a post recently about having Personal Achievements and well League of Legends came through again.
They have something called Eternals basically combat tracker for your performance live while in game pretty cool
I heard about it before but not quite sure what it was. But here is a link to video https://youtu.be/X7DA9rWn4ro
Another thing I Wanted to mention is that Riot does some little things really well.
Chogath a monster that gets bigger the more he eats well one of his spells effects actually grows in size visually.
Mech-Sion at the beginning of the game has a speed boost like every other toon but since
he is a robot has vents in the back that open up for thrusters and guy just kind of floats away.
Malphite and earth elemental actually changes from brown to orage red color when he gets a buff by killing red jungle monster Crest of Cinders I believe.
Thing is they did not have to do these thingd but do any ways says a lot about the designers at Riot.
At this point do not see doing 5v5 in Ashes of Creation. Maybe that is part of the reason there is no 5v5 bracket in WoW. Just makes sense to do it In League. Buy hey If Ashes of Creation can rise to the occasion and out do them Good for Them.
Said something about how LoL has a lot of Variety well it is great that Ashes has 8 subclasses but would also be great if it encouraged multiclassing. Some people eventually get bored with class and move on to something new. So multiclassing would be great way to keep game fresh and increase replay value of game.
Plus a toon has a huge advantage to be able to log in choose what role to play tank ranged dps melee dps and healing. And feels better being able to do those things. Even if you were to make more classes if people just play one class then classes are kind of wasted. Of course player cannot play every class but could try them just to see if they like them. No suggestions on my part on how to get more people to multi-class though just know it would benefit the game.
At this point do not see doing 5v5 in Ashes of Creation. Maybe that is part of the reason there is no 5v5 bracket in WoW. Just makes sense to do it In League. Buy hey If Ashes of Creation can rise to the occasion and out do them Good for Them.
Ashes isn't going to focus at all on set numbers in PvP. An arena will be in the game, and there will be different brackets (a 5v5 is in there), but outside of military node mayor selection, it won't see much use or focus.
Rather than 5v5, or 10v10, the vast majority of PvP in Ashes is likely to be "however many friends I can bring v however many friends you can bring".
If I can only bring 3 friends, and you bring 250, then we have 4v251 PvP.
Okay now I'd like to rant and insult everyone but I will try to stay as calm as possible
I used to play league, started when varus came out and stopped when the demon vi skin was released. League is maked by the chinese tencent and for me, the amount of occult in that game was overwhelming. Like, i'm okay with pentagrams if you have crosses on the other side, too bad what i saw there was only evil. Also their marketing and targetting is definitely aimed at kids and furries.
I wouldn't want to attract all kinds of toxic playerbase league does.
What I would take inspiration though, is, because i think intrepid already was inspired by that but i hope it will continue, the Settlers. Now it is amazing game with an amazing player base.
Also travian, a browser game, slightly p2w buy almost everyone pays, but it has amazing diplomatic and war mechanic. Just giving players the tools, it can create scenarios better than knights of the old republic, or like star control origins.
What i had in mind when i backed ashes, was that it is The Settlers mmorpg. I hope it stays that way. We do not need league which is a bad simplification of many things (like a pirate gankplank that doesn't even use a ship. Don't do that, introduce real pirate ships instead)
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Wandering MistModerator, Member, Founder, Kickstarter, Alpha One
@afar Remember that we are talking about gameplay here so...
eague is maked by the chinese tencent and for me, the amount of occult in that game was overwhelming.
Tencent own Riot Games but they don't do anything with the gameplay, so this point is irrelevant.
Also their marketing and targetting is definitely aimed at kids and furries.
This has nothing to do with gameplay at all. Also for the record I am a furry and you'd do well not to passive-aggressively insult something you clearly know very little about. Moving on!
I wouldn't want to attract all kinds of toxic playerbase league does.
While the gameplay does play a part in the LoL toxicity, it is not by any means the only reason nor the biggest reason. The main reason why toxicity exists in LoL is because of how the matchmaking and ranking system works. Yes of course you get people complaining about "this champ is OP" but this is no different to every other multiplayer game.
What I would take inspiration though, is, because i think intrepid already was inspired by that but i hope it will continue, the Settlers. Now it is amazing game with an amazing player base.
Also travian, a browser game, slightly p2w buy almost everyone pays, but it has amazing diplomatic and war mechanic. Just giving players the tools, it can create scenarios better than knights of the old republic, or like star control origins.
What i had in mind when i backed ashes, was that it is The Settlers mmorpg. I hope it stays that way. We do not need league which is a bad simplification of many things (like a pirate gankplank that doesn't even use a ship. Don't do that, introduce real pirate ships instead)
I've never played either Settlers or Travian so I can't really comment on that. You say that you don't want Ashes of Creation to be like LoL and yet all your complains have been regarding marketing and aesthetics. Now, if you want to discuss why you don't like the gameplay, feel free, but bringing mindless hate into this discussion is pointless.
Well think Intrepid Studios should make some attemp to gets its piece of the pie in this bracket being as it is so huge a acommunity. Really classes are already made so all they have to do is come up with good maps. Plus MMO has a huge advantage to experiment with maps cause. Not like A MOBA were if the PvP is not next to awesome to pull players away from games already out there then players do not to stick for PvE content that does not exist in MOBAs.
So if they just did some trial and error with maps after the game launches and see how community reacts should be able to come up with some really good maps.
But if they do not focus on it as you say then well probably get unfocused results.
Well think Intrepid Studios should make some attemp to gets its piece of the pie in this bracket being as it is so huge a acommunity.
The thing is, a 5v5 arena in an MMO is a different product to a 5v5 MOBA. So, you're really only targeting a subset of MOBA players, and we don't know how big that subset is; it could be too small to be worth it.
But if they do not focus on it as you say then well probably get unfocused results.
This is the point.
The idea of Ashes is to fight people out in the open, not in neat little confined boxes where you know exactly how many friends and enemies there are.
You are talking about two different games, and suggesting that Ashes try and grab a piece of the MOBA pie is no different than suggesting Ashes try and take it's piece of the casual gaming pie (much bigger and more lucritive than MOBA's) by adding in a Bejeweled mechanic to everything.
Want to cast a spell? Match three jems!
Want to swing your sword? Match three gems!
Want to craft an item? Match three gems!
Ashes is an MMO, and Intrepid want to capture a portion of the MMO playerbase. Trying to convince people that want to play a MOBA, a FPS, a BR or a casual game to instead play an MMO simply will not work, because players play the types of games they play because that is the type of game they enjoy.
If Ashes suddenly had half of it's playerbase as MOBA players, how much of the MMO content of the game do you think Intrepid would be able to focus on?
Subset of players that play MOBAs that are not limited to 5v5 brackets is...........drum role pls.............
Way over 100 million players. Matter a fact 100 million players login to League every month. That is just league. Not counting Fortnight 100v100 bracket 145 million players or games like Dota. Obviously same players play both or all threee So I just went with conservative very conservative. 100 million. Yes I know league is free to play and so is fortnighte but that does not mean they will not play 5v5 bracket in Ashes of Creation or 100v100 larger events.
As far as how much focus. Well in this particular instance it is actually a very specific answer. One word in fact Maps.
So basically you are saying pvp maps are to much for Ashes of Creation to do. Everything else is already there.
So what you are saying is not relevant cause well maps is nothing compared to say something like professions. In fact I would say that it would take little resources and time to make PvP maps campared to making full set of animations for one class. Blackrock Depths one of the best dungeouns of all time took one week to make. So PvP maps not to much of a challenge to full MMO crew.
Plus we already ahve a 5v5 3v3 1v1 so all the structure for MOBA style play has to be made any ways. Tell you what tell me about the things that Ashes of Creation would have to focus on that they are not already doing if they were going to focus on 5v5 brackets and below.
They definitely have the resources to do so if they wanted. Easily. Did Ashes of Creation say that. That their focus is going to be on 100v100 events and not MOBA style events.
Not sure what makes you say that other than fact that MMOs have more pve content in them. So naturally going to spend more time on resources on that and battleground and caravans, but you are making sound like it would be a strain a stretch to many resources and time going in different directions and that is not the case for sure. Now if they do decide to just make a box and put people in it and call that 5v5 brackets and below then that is to their loss. Besides that I remeber in an early video were players in arena were destroying an objective in an arena so Know is going to be more than just a box.
What you are saying might make some sense if there was no 5v5 in Ashes of Creation. Yes I know it does represent a very small Aspect of the game but that is not saying much. Yes I know Ashes is an MMO and not a MOBA or Pure PvP game that is not saying much either. While statementts are true well they do not support the idea that Ashes will have to much to do to focus on or try to groom a pvp community in smaller brackets. . Since when is pvp maps to much for MMOs to handle. You did not say pvp maps but that is what it turned out to be cause only thing that needs to be is PvP maps eveythign else is there for most part.
As far as Eteranals are concerned well that could apply to PvE and PvP. Thing is etertanls is like an small app. Since Ashes of Creation is an MMO it is not a big enough project to say well Ashes of Creation is mainly focuses on being an MMO not a MOBA. So what just an app. Not like I am asking something like dragons as playable monster race.
Your post makes no sense at all. Now if you are not interested in 5v5 brackets or MOBA style Play that is an entirely different issue all together.
And since when do maps in MOBAs and MMOs limited to certain styles.
Are you saying Ashes of creation is an MMO so I should not expect to see and app lik eternals in the game when it could easily apply to PvE and PvP that would just be ridiculous.
Subset of players that play MOBAs that are not limited to 5v5 brackets is...........drum role pls.............Way over 100 million players.
1. If the subset of the 100+ million players that will also play AoC (for arenas) is 0.00001%, that's 1000 players. It's a different discussion about pulling resources to make new maps for 1000 extra people.
2. If you manage to attract a big subset of players from the 100+ million, and you attract them by promoting arenas, then it attracts (and possibly floods AoC with) the wrong player base. AoC needs a thriving player base that participates actively in the open world.
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Wandering MistModerator, Member, Founder, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Subset of players that play MOBAs that are not limited to 5v5 brackets is...........drum role pls.............Way over 100 million players.
1. If the subset of 100+ million players that will also play AoC is 0.00001%, that's 1000 players and probably not worth it.
2. If you manage to attracted any significant number of players from the 100+ million by promoting arenas, then it adds a player base to AoC that generally focuses on arenas. It's the wrong player base to attract since AoC needs a thriving population that participates actively in the open world.
You make it sound like players are fixated on a single game type. While there are players out there that only play one specific sub-genre of game, in my experience they aren't the norm.
Subset of players that play MOBAs that are not limited to 5v5 brackets is...........drum role pls.............Way over 100 million players.
1. If the subset of 100+ million players that will also play AoC is 0.00001%, that's 1000 players and probably not worth it.
2. If you manage to attracted any significant number of players from the 100+ million by promoting arenas, then it adds a player base to AoC that generally focuses on arenas. It's the wrong player base to attract since AoC needs a thriving population that participates actively in the open world.
You make it sound like players are fixated on a single game type. While there are players out there that only play one specific sub-genre of game, in my experience they aren't the norm.
Not at all. That's why I said a player base that 'generally focuses on arenas' instead of 'exclusively focuses', and it's conditional on them being the ones attracted by marketing/promoting arenas in the first place. Of course there's wiggle room for people who enjoy arenas and other MMO activities.
Subset of players that play MOBAs that are not limited to 5v5 brackets is...........drum role pls.............Way over 100 million players.
1. If the subset of 100+ million players that will also play AoC is 0.00001%, that's 1000 players and probably not worth it.
2. If you manage to attracted any significant number of players from the 100+ million by promoting arenas, then it adds a player base to AoC that generally focuses on arenas. It's the wrong player base to attract since AoC needs a thriving population that participates actively in the open world.
You make it sound like players are fixated on a single game type. While there are players out there that only play one specific sub-genre of game, in my experience they aren't the norm.
Not at all. That's why I said a player base that 'generally focuses on arenas' instead of 'exclusively focuses', and it's conditional on them being the ones attracted by marketing/promoting arenas in the first place. Of course there's wiggle room for people who enjoy arenas and other MMO activities.
Based on your previous posts, it seems like you believe the arenas will be purely PvP with little else, but that's incorrect. Maps have to have more interest besides hiding spots otherwise you end up with more avoidance than aggression. Objectives to force players to fight are key for a decent arena experience, and that will end up being very much like League. With the camera orientation, maybe describing it as more Smite-like would be more accurate.
Regardless of which MOBA it'll take after, there's not a doubt in my mind there will be detailed maps made for arena play with "PvE" objectives. Deathmatches are fun for a little bit, but they get dull, especially when there is very little option for alternate builds or playstyles when the only objective is "Be a Murder Hobo".
Subset of players that play MOBAs that are not limited to 5v5 brackets is...........drum role pls.............Way over 100 million players.
1. If the subset of 100+ million players that will also play AoC is 0.00001%, that's 1000 players and probably not worth it.
2. If you manage to attracted any significant number of players from the 100+ million by promoting arenas, then it adds a player base to AoC that generally focuses on arenas. It's the wrong player base to attract since AoC needs a thriving population that participates actively in the open world.
You make it sound like players are fixated on a single game type. While there are players out there that only play one specific sub-genre of game, in my experience they aren't the norm.
Not at all. That's why I said a player base that 'generally focuses on arenas' instead of 'exclusively focuses', and it's conditional on them being the ones attracted by marketing/promoting arenas in the first place. Of course there's wiggle room for people who enjoy arenas and other MMO activities.
Based on your previous posts, it seems like you believe the arenas will be purely PvP with little else, but that's incorrect. Maps have to have more interest besides hiding spots otherwise you end up with more avoidance than aggression. Objectives to force players to fight are key for a decent arena experience, and that will end up being very much like League. With the camera orientation, maybe describing it as more Smite-like would be more accurate.
Regardless of which MOBA it'll take after, there's not a doubt in my mind there will be detailed maps made for arena play with "PvE" objectives. Deathmatches are fun for a little bit, but they get dull, especially when there is very little option for alternate builds or playstyles when the only objective is "Be a Murder Hobo".
Can you consider something - anything - to be a PvE objective if the actual objective of adding it to a game in the first place is to force players in to PvP?
IMO, if something has no purpose outside of PvP, then it is PvP concent.
Based on your previous posts, it seems like you believe the arenas will be purely PvP with little else, but that's incorrect. Maps have to have more interest besides hiding spots otherwise you end up with more avoidance than aggression. Objectives to force players to fight are key for a decent arena experience, and that will end up being very much like League. With the camera orientation, maybe describing it as more Smite-like would be more accurate.
Regardless of which MOBA it'll take after, there's not a doubt in my mind there will be detailed maps made for arena play with "PvE" objectives. Deathmatches are fun for a little bit, but they get dull, especially when there is very little option for alternate builds or playstyles when the only objective is "Be a Murder Hobo".
The way you described it is the way I picture it (and hope for) too.
Where I draw a distinction is I see the MMO arena and MOBAs as quite different products, even if the arena was designed just like LoL. This is just because the arena is wrapped in a package alongside a subscription, PvE activities required to get gear (since you can't only arena to get the best gear), a longer levelling curve, etc.
Subset of players that play MOBAs that are not limited to 5v5 brackets is...........drum role pls.............Way over 100 million players.
1. If the subset of 100+ million players that will also play AoC is 0.00001%, that's 1000 players and probably not worth it.
2. If you manage to attracted any significant number of players from the 100+ million by promoting arenas, then it adds a player base to AoC that generally focuses on arenas. It's the wrong player base to attract since AoC needs a thriving population that participates actively in the open world.
You make it sound like players are fixated on a single game type. While there are players out there that only play one specific sub-genre of game, in my experience they aren't the norm.
Not at all. That's why I said a player base that 'generally focuses on arenas' instead of 'exclusively focuses', and it's conditional on them being the ones attracted by marketing/promoting arenas in the first place. Of course there's wiggle room for people who enjoy arenas and other MMO activities.
Based on your previous posts, it seems like you believe the arenas will be purely PvP with little else, but that's incorrect. Maps have to have more interest besides hiding spots otherwise you end up with more avoidance than aggression. Objectives to force players to fight are key for a decent arena experience, and that will end up being very much like League. With the camera orientation, maybe describing it as more Smite-like would be more accurate.
Regardless of which MOBA it'll take after, there's not a doubt in my mind there will be detailed maps made for arena play with "PvE" objectives. Deathmatches are fun for a little bit, but they get dull, especially when there is very little option for alternate builds or playstyles when the only objective is "Be a Murder Hobo".
Can you consider something - anything - to be a PvE objective if the actual objective of adding it to a game in the first place is to force players in to PvP?
IMO, if something has no purpose outside of PvP, then it is PvP concent.
Hence the quotes around “PvE”. Technically the objectives don’t need to involve another player to function, but their purpose is to enable or encourage PvP. Could be a mini boss that gives a temporary buff (aka a jungle mob), it could be the form of simple capture flags, even areas of destructible terrain to make alternate flank pathways could be considered points of contention.
Based on your previous posts, it seems like you believe the arenas will be purely PvP with little else, but that's incorrect. Maps have to have more interest besides hiding spots otherwise you end up with more avoidance than aggression. Objectives to force players to fight are key for a decent arena experience, and that will end up being very much like League. With the camera orientation, maybe describing it as more Smite-like would be more accurate.
Regardless of which MOBA it'll take after, there's not a doubt in my mind there will be detailed maps made for arena play with "PvE" objectives. Deathmatches are fun for a little bit, but they get dull, especially when there is very little option for alternate builds or playstyles when the only objective is "Be a Murder Hobo".
The way you described it is the way I picture it (and hope for) too.
Where I draw a distinction is I see the MMO arena and MOBAs as quite different products, even if the arena was designed just like LoL. This is just because the arena is wrapped in a package alongside a subscription, PvE activities required to get gear (since you can't only arena to get the best gear), a longer levelling curve, etc.
Oh absolutely. I’d be disappointed if an Arena match started everyone from zero each round like League (sort of) does. I can imagine a “skill line” of sorts with minor arena-specific bonuses as players participate in arena matches, but for the most part I think it shouldn’t end up with much different combat mechanics than the rest of the game.
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MeowsedMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
League of Legends is trash and so are the people who play it.
Let's avoid making AoC into smoldering garbage please.
Hey I still enjoy League... sort of. And I'm pretty sure only 2-3 quarters of the the playerbase are angry gremlins fueled by fake internet points and the incessant desire to win without working for it.
Mega troll fr
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NagashMember, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
making games like MOBAs never ends well
The dead do not squabble as this land’s rulers do. The dead have no desires, petty jealousies or ambitions. A world of the dead is a world at peace
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Wandering MistModerator, Member, Founder, Kickstarter, Alpha One
League of Legends is trash and so are the people who play it.
Let's avoid making AoC into smoldering garbage please.
Hey I still enjoy League... sort of. And I'm pretty sure only 2-3 quarters of the the playerbase are angry gremlins fueled by fake internet points and the incessant desire to win without working for it.
You know, back when I played LoL I spent a great deal of time analysing the psychology of the players and had some interesting revelations. The long and the short of it is that perspective is a huge deal, and a lot of LoL players have a bad habit of making judgements based on incomplete information. I saw this all the time on the LoL forums, where someone would make a thread complaining about how rubbish their teammates are , how many trolls they get in their matches, etc etc. Instead of taking what they said at face value I went and watched the replays of the matches they were talking about, and more often than not the person complaining on the forums was very misinformed.
From my experience, the majority of toxicity in LoL stems from miscommunication and judgements based on incomplete information.
That said, none of this has anything to do with putting gameplay elements and design from LoL into Ashes of Creation, so the point is moot.
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MeowsedMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
@Wandering Mist Oh I am well aware. I was just making a mean joke. League has a dangerous combination of complexity, fast-pace, and uncontrollable factors (mostly teammates), which causes players to jump to conclusions and misunderstand how games are supposed to play out. Plus, the matchmaking means that most players lose 50% of the time. It can be endlessly frustrating, but just as rewarding when you conquer all the game's challenges. And I hate to play the age card, but it's a lot for teenagers to handle emotionally. (I've been immature and overzealous too, so I get it.)
And yeah, all of that is really just talking about the broad gameplay patterns of the genre, which aren't applicable to an MMO. The smaller stuff, tactical ability design, controls, visual feedback, balancing; that's the good stuff I think every action-y game can learn from. Which is why I still enjoy the game (as a spectator mostly).
League of Legends is trash and so are the people who play it.
Let's avoid making AoC into smoldering garbage please.
Hey I still enjoy League... sort of. And I'm pretty sure only 2-3 quarters of the the playerbase are angry gremlins fueled by fake internet points and the incessant desire to win without working for it.
You know, back when I played LoL I spent a great deal of time analysing the psychology of the players and had some interesting revelations. The long and the short of it is that perspective is a huge deal, and a lot of LoL players have a bad habit of making judgements based on incomplete information. I saw this all the time on the LoL forums, where someone would make a thread complaining about how rubbish their teammates are , how many trolls they get in their matches, etc etc. Instead of taking what they said at face value I went and watched the replays of the matches they were talking about, and more often than not the person complaining on the forums was very misinformed.
From my experience, the majority of toxicity in LoL stems from miscommunication and judgements based on incomplete information.
That said, none of this has anything to do with putting gameplay elements and design from LoL into Ashes of Creation, so the point is moot.
Just for another point that doesn't necessarily fit in this thread - the above is why I want to see an in game combat tracker. The better info players have easy access to, the fewer this type of thing will happen. It won't stop it (nothing will), but it will slow it down.
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Wandering MistModerator, Member, Founder, Kickstarter, Alpha One
League of Legends is trash and so are the people who play it.
Let's avoid making AoC into smoldering garbage please.
Hey I still enjoy League... sort of. And I'm pretty sure only 2-3 quarters of the the playerbase are angry gremlins fueled by fake internet points and the incessant desire to win without working for it.
You know, back when I played LoL I spent a great deal of time analysing the psychology of the players and had some interesting revelations. The long and the short of it is that perspective is a huge deal, and a lot of LoL players have a bad habit of making judgements based on incomplete information. I saw this all the time on the LoL forums, where someone would make a thread complaining about how rubbish their teammates are , how many trolls they get in their matches, etc etc. Instead of taking what they said at face value I went and watched the replays of the matches they were talking about, and more often than not the person complaining on the forums was very misinformed.
From my experience, the majority of toxicity in LoL stems from miscommunication and judgements based on incomplete information.
That said, none of this has anything to do with putting gameplay elements and design from LoL into Ashes of Creation, so the point is moot.
Just for another point that doesn't necessarily fit in this thread - the above is why I want to see an in game combat tracker. The better info players have easy access to, the fewer this type of thing will happen. It won't stop it (nothing will), but it will slow it down.
I doubt it will slow it down by much. The people who went onto the LoL forums to complain about their teammates had just as much access to the match replays as I did, yet refused to use them. It's far easier to blindly judge and blame someone than actually investigate what happened.
People take data in the simplest form, either unwilling or unable to look past the first layer.
People take data in the simplest form, either unwilling or unable to look past the first layer.
Absolutely.
To me though, first layer data is anything obtained in game. If you have to go to a replay, or go to a seperate parsing application, that is no longer the first layer of data.
Take a combat tracker (note I am not saying DPS meter), award players points for damage output, healing output, incoming damage mitigation, dodging and blocking, buffs applied to appropriate classes, CC landed, effects cured etc, and then remove points for CC broken, avoidable damage taken, environmental damage taken, direct damage taken by non-tanks, over healing, buffs applied to inappropriate classes etc.
All of a sudden, the first layer of data players have is basically a score of over all effectiveness, both the good and the bad.
Good luck blaming the wrong person then.
I'm not sure whether I totally support this kind of thing, but if it is implemented in conjunction with a full, in depth combat tracker, all it basically is - when broken down - is the same conclusion someone that knows how to assess the full data set would come to.
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Wandering MistModerator, Member, Founder, Kickstarter, Alpha One
People take data in the simplest form, either unwilling or unable to look past the first layer.
Absolutely.
To me though, first layer data is anything obtained in game. If you have to go to a replay, or go to a seperate parsing application, that is no longer the first layer of data.
Take a combat tracker (note I am not saying DPS meter), award players points for damage output, healing output, incoming damage mitigation, dodging and blocking, buffs applied to appropriate classes, CC landed, effects cured etc, and then remove points for CC broken, avoidable damage taken, environmental damage taken, direct damage taken by non-tanks, over healing, buffs applied to inappropriate classes etc.
All of a sudden, the first layer of data players have is basically a score of over all effectiveness, both the good and the bad.
Good luck blaming the wrong person then.
I'm not sure whether I totally support this kind of thing, but if it is implemented in conjunction with a full, in depth combat tracker, all it basically is - when broken down - is the same conclusion someone that knows how to assess the full data set would come to.
And we're back to awarding points to individuals in team-based gameplay, which I am vehemently against.
People take data in the simplest form, either unwilling or unable to look past the first layer.
Absolutely.
To me though, first layer data is anything obtained in game. If you have to go to a replay, or go to a seperate parsing application, that is no longer the first layer of data.
Take a combat tracker (note I am not saying DPS meter), award players points for damage output, healing output, incoming damage mitigation, dodging and blocking, buffs applied to appropriate classes, CC landed, effects cured etc, and then remove points for CC broken, avoidable damage taken, environmental damage taken, direct damage taken by non-tanks, over healing, buffs applied to inappropriate classes etc.
All of a sudden, the first layer of data players have is basically a score of over all effectiveness, both the good and the bad.
Good luck blaming the wrong person then.
I'm not sure whether I totally support this kind of thing, but if it is implemented in conjunction with a full, in depth combat tracker, all it basically is - when broken down - is the same conclusion someone that knows how to assess the full data set would come to.
And we're back to awarding points to individuals in team-based gameplay, which I am vehemently against.
Is it really "awarding points" if they are neither accumulated nor transferrable for anything? All it is, when you look at it, is a parse that takes all aspects of combat in to consideration rather than just DPS. The "points" you get from it would he exactly as useful as the "points" you get from a DPS meter in WoW.
Any team is only ever as good as it's weakest link, and while I agree that members of a team shouldn't be awarded material fains for being a better member of their group than another, knowing how good each member of your group is/was should never be looked down on.
Part of being in a team of any description is in getting the best out of your weakest link, and you simply can't do that if you can't identify who that weakest link is.
If the idea of being in a team is to help the whole team get through, qnd if people are going to judge based on the first layer of data, that first layer of data needs to be robust, and the idea that I outlined above is nothing more than data.
Well in Leagues they actually have Experience for pvp and bot games and mastery points just for pvp games. Now the bot games is actually a mentoring program and LoL made it really rewarding in the beginning so that players would play long enough to get good engough to play in PvP games. People would just get crushed if they went and did PvP games at level 1. LoL has bot games to learn game then has normal PvP games to get ready for Ranked play. That was really smart of them.
But what I want to say that if Ashes of Creation had experience points for PvP like battlegrounds and arenas and gave out some rewards then it would make a sense of progression and people would not be so inclined to burn out.
Now the opposite of this is.....lets say you are at 800 hundred rated and want to break 1000 rated well it might be a long climb to 1000 rated and the entire time not really getting rewarded in any way by the game so it may seem like a long stale grind.
Went through a lot of players that just quit after a short while cause they stopped winning in arenas, basically made it to next bracket so playing against better teams so lost more so they quit. But maybe if they were rewarded however small the reward was and given experience adn levels might of played long enough get good enough to keep playing.
Think metrics are a good idea for competative PvP especially the 5v5 brackets and below, since they are of a more serious nature. No differnet than keeping track of your progress when you go to the gym.
Game awareness
Now that I Have been playing the game for a while noticed that in this game there are a number of things that players have to keep track of.and look for.
As perviously mention some abilities are hard to execute really need some one to root toon for you so like lets say Sions q ability that swe previously mentioned can be executed with two second charge with some one else rooting the toon. Sounds pretty basic I Know. However you usually cannot get the full 2 second charge so when you do it feels special and extra satisfiying. That is one of the central game mechanics in this game.
But it not only applies to synergies in abilities between classes also applies to things like Mana. I know mana management has already has been mentioned. But in this game since it is a thing that has to be managed then you have to keep track of your mana and other players mana also and enemies mana. Good time to attack is when they are low on mana. Yes sounds real simple. But there are other things that are real simple in this game that also require the players to pay attention and when added up you have a game that keep your attention glued to the screen.
Just going to make a list, there is tower damage, timers on dragon spaws, freindly and enemy ultimate abilities. There is also a Mina Map that you should pay attention to so you do not get ambushed there are also other things which do not feel it necessary to mention.
I know that PvP and PvE is different and I am talking about a MOBA but in a nutshell when you are playing this game you are always processing information and data that is pertainent to the game. Think this basic idea could be applied to PvE.
Kind of a theme on these furoms how PvE is gets repatative and boring. I want to add that this game is the most popular game in the world 30 million people on average play this gaem daily so be wrothwhile to look at it.
The main thing when it comes to League is to look at its principles of combat.
For anything you have a counter in the form of some item or another champion.
However the most important thing to look for is the power inflation in champions that comes from movement and binary abilities like crowd control.
Also the only place we can look at are the actual late game teamfights. The relation between burst and sustained damage with access to various amount of movement abilities and movement speed in general.
What I've seen time and time again in any rpg or mmorpg is the underestimation of movement and burst damage windows with control abilities - silence, stun, fear or displacement and the actual reach which determines who makes the first strike (stealth classes having this assured unless found in stealth).
There is kind of a "holy trinity" with dealing damage - reach, movement and burst damage with its recharge time (meaning if burst damage is low but has fast recharge we call it sustained damage instead)
All archetypes are going to be able to be represented through these strengths and what I'm worried about is the real possibility that the archetypes are going to be balanced around perfect circumstances.
At this point I would recommend to the devs to play this game just for educational purposes learning about how the abilities and other game mechanics work. I have only played 21 champions some of them only ounce have 44 of them that being the case my knowledge of the game is limited cause they have almost 150 champions and I only played 21 of them. Spend most of the time palying faovorites.
I already posted a lot about it but lets take it from a different angle
League of Legends Version of
Implosion would be an area effect charge ability 2 seconds does damage over time right away when charge is complete then implosion takes place pulling target to center. So player could avoid most of the damage but mage would have to stop holding down the button right before the opposing player
left the area of effect. So mage has to pay attention.
Chain lightning would be area of effect with eight charges oveer 8 seconds If you change target or target dies then have chance to change target for more damage. Or could be done by number of times you push the button key binded to chain lightning
Wall of Force get to pick location of Wall of force near or far away from the caster. Actually may already be that way but does not look like it in the videos.
Now let me mention two other abiltities Mecha Zion Zero transforms into a train and then charges for 8 seconds but you have to guide the train or hits walls or obstacles prematurely. Stops when it hits other toons or can be stopped manually by pressing ability button again. In Ashes of creation game it could be a very fast guided delayed blast fire ball. Also same champion has shield that explodes and causes damage if not used. Champion Looks like different version of Optimus Prime.
Still have over 100 Champoins i have not even played.
Skill shots are pretty cool but the problem with skill shots is they can be avioded every time if good enough So in LoL some abilties have cast times but you can actually change the direction of or place of area of effect during cast time. Matter of fact one ability is like a guided laser that you move around with mouse.
But there are other things to mention like facing values. but think be better if you guys studied this game a bit instead. It is unreal to me what Riot does with ailities. Hopefully at leason one person at IS plays this game.
As someone who has been playing league for nearly 5 years I can say that EVERY company has its flaws and riot are in no way free from this. Yes their ability system is good, but it is also incredibly simplistic compared to what you find in MMORPGs. Riot themselves admit to this and accept they need to work harder, which granted is a MASSIVE improvement over companies like Blizzard that seem to think their players owe them something.
The easiest way I can suggest you look at lol champs compared to an mmo is by combining 3-4 into one champion. So like consider a rogue as an archetype. You'd look at khazix's isolated damage, akali and talons mobility/stealth, but then you pick your second archetype so you might go for some fighter in there and get a bit of rengar pounce or irelia stun. Maybe you go a bit of mage and get some diana shielding or Ekko aoe stun. Or you go cleric and get some zed ult or morde w shield/healing.
League is more about your build than the champion you're playing while an mmorpg will focus far more on what your skill choices are and you class.
The comparison is a very hard one to make but the easiest way I keep coming back to is league champions are just simply far more simplistic than what you get mmorpgs. Even gw2 was far more complex and I feel that was the most simplistic mmorpg character design I've seen since legends of mir.
Comments
They have something called Eternals basically combat tracker for your performance live while in game pretty cool
I heard about it before but not quite sure what it was. But here is a link to video
Another thing I Wanted to mention is that Riot does some little things really well.
Chogath a monster that gets bigger the more he eats well one of his spells effects actually grows in size visually.
Mech-Sion at the beginning of the game has a speed boost like every other toon but since
he is a robot has vents in the back that open up for thrusters and guy just kind of floats away.
Malphite and earth elemental actually changes from brown to orage red color when he gets a buff by killing red jungle monster Crest of Cinders I believe.
Thing is they did not have to do these thingd but do any ways says a lot about the designers at Riot.
At this point do not see doing 5v5 in Ashes of Creation. Maybe that is part of the reason there is no 5v5 bracket in WoW. Just makes sense to do it In League. Buy hey If Ashes of Creation can rise to the occasion and out do them Good for Them.
Said something about how LoL has a lot of Variety well it is great that Ashes has 8 subclasses but would also be great if it encouraged multiclassing. Some people eventually get bored with class and move on to something new. So multiclassing would be great way to keep game fresh and increase replay value of game.
Plus a toon has a huge advantage to be able to log in choose what role to play tank ranged dps melee dps and healing. And feels better being able to do those things. Even if you were to make more classes if people just play one class then classes are kind of wasted. Of course player cannot play every class but could try them just to see if they like them. No suggestions on my part on how to get more people to multi-class though just know it would benefit the game.
Rather than 5v5, or 10v10, the vast majority of PvP in Ashes is likely to be "however many friends I can bring v however many friends you can bring".
If I can only bring 3 friends, and you bring 250, then we have 4v251 PvP.
I used to play league, started when varus came out and stopped when the demon vi skin was released. League is maked by the chinese tencent and for me, the amount of occult in that game was overwhelming. Like, i'm okay with pentagrams if you have crosses on the other side, too bad what i saw there was only evil. Also their marketing and targetting is definitely aimed at kids and furries.
I wouldn't want to attract all kinds of toxic playerbase league does.
What I would take inspiration though, is, because i think intrepid already was inspired by that but i hope it will continue, the Settlers. Now it is amazing game with an amazing player base.
Also travian, a browser game, slightly p2w buy almost everyone pays, but it has amazing diplomatic and war mechanic. Just giving players the tools, it can create scenarios better than knights of the old republic, or like star control origins.
What i had in mind when i backed ashes, was that it is The Settlers mmorpg. I hope it stays that way. We do not need league which is a bad simplification of many things (like a pirate gankplank that doesn't even use a ship. Don't do that, introduce real pirate ships instead)
Tencent own Riot Games but they don't do anything with the gameplay, so this point is irrelevant.
This has nothing to do with gameplay at all. Also for the record I am a furry and you'd do well not to passive-aggressively insult something you clearly know very little about. Moving on!
While the gameplay does play a part in the LoL toxicity, it is not by any means the only reason nor the biggest reason. The main reason why toxicity exists in LoL is because of how the matchmaking and ranking system works. Yes of course you get people complaining about "this champ is OP" but this is no different to every other multiplayer game.
I've never played either Settlers or Travian so I can't really comment on that. You say that you don't want Ashes of Creation to be like LoL and yet all your complains have been regarding marketing and aesthetics. Now, if you want to discuss why you don't like the gameplay, feel free, but bringing mindless hate into this discussion is pointless.
So if they just did some trial and error with maps after the game launches and see how community reacts should be able to come up with some really good maps.
But if they do not focus on it as you say then well probably get unfocused results.
The thing is, a 5v5 arena in an MMO is a different product to a 5v5 MOBA. So, you're really only targeting a subset of MOBA players, and we don't know how big that subset is; it could be too small to be worth it.
This is the point.
The idea of Ashes is to fight people out in the open, not in neat little confined boxes where you know exactly how many friends and enemies there are.
You are talking about two different games, and suggesting that Ashes try and grab a piece of the MOBA pie is no different than suggesting Ashes try and take it's piece of the casual gaming pie (much bigger and more lucritive than MOBA's) by adding in a Bejeweled mechanic to everything.
Want to cast a spell? Match three jems!
Want to swing your sword? Match three gems!
Want to craft an item? Match three gems!
Ashes is an MMO, and Intrepid want to capture a portion of the MMO playerbase. Trying to convince people that want to play a MOBA, a FPS, a BR or a casual game to instead play an MMO simply will not work, because players play the types of games they play because that is the type of game they enjoy.
If Ashes suddenly had half of it's playerbase as MOBA players, how much of the MMO content of the game do you think Intrepid would be able to focus on?
Way over 100 million players. Matter a fact 100 million players login to League every month. That is just league. Not counting Fortnight 100v100 bracket 145 million players or games like Dota. Obviously same players play both or all threee So I just went with conservative very conservative. 100 million. Yes I know league is free to play and so is fortnighte but that does not mean they will not play 5v5 bracket in Ashes of Creation or 100v100 larger events.
As far as how much focus. Well in this particular instance it is actually a very specific answer. One word in fact Maps.
So basically you are saying pvp maps are to much for Ashes of Creation to do. Everything else is already there.
So what you are saying is not relevant cause well maps is nothing compared to say something like professions. In fact I would say that it would take little resources and time to make PvP maps campared to making full set of animations for one class. Blackrock Depths one of the best dungeouns of all time took one week to make. So PvP maps not to much of a challenge to full MMO crew.
Plus we already ahve a 5v5 3v3 1v1 so all the structure for MOBA style play has to be made any ways. Tell you what tell me about the things that Ashes of Creation would have to focus on that they are not already doing if they were going to focus on 5v5 brackets and below.
They definitely have the resources to do so if they wanted. Easily. Did Ashes of Creation say that. That their focus is going to be on 100v100 events and not MOBA style events.
Not sure what makes you say that other than fact that MMOs have more pve content in them. So naturally going to spend more time on resources on that and battleground and caravans, but you are making sound like it would be a strain a stretch to many resources and time going in different directions and that is not the case for sure. Now if they do decide to just make a box and put people in it and call that 5v5 brackets and below then that is to their loss. Besides that I remeber in an early video were players in arena were destroying an objective in an arena so Know is going to be more than just a box.
What you are saying might make some sense if there was no 5v5 in Ashes of Creation. Yes I know it does represent a very small Aspect of the game but that is not saying much. Yes I know Ashes is an MMO and not a MOBA or Pure PvP game that is not saying much either. While statementts are true well they do not support the idea that Ashes will have to much to do to focus on or try to groom a pvp community in smaller brackets. . Since when is pvp maps to much for MMOs to handle. You did not say pvp maps but that is what it turned out to be cause only thing that needs to be is PvP maps eveythign else is there for most part.
As far as Eteranals are concerned well that could apply to PvE and PvP. Thing is etertanls is like an small app. Since Ashes of Creation is an MMO it is not a big enough project to say well Ashes of Creation is mainly focuses on being an MMO not a MOBA. So what just an app. Not like I am asking something like dragons as playable monster race.
Your post makes no sense at all. Now if you are not interested in 5v5 brackets or MOBA style Play that is an entirely different issue all together.
And since when do maps in MOBAs and MMOs limited to certain styles.
Are you saying Ashes of creation is an MMO so I should not expect to see and app lik eternals in the game when it could easily apply to PvE and PvP that would just be ridiculous.
Your post sounds good but that is about it.
They are different types of games, with different playerbases that have very little cross over.
1. If the subset of the 100+ million players that will also play AoC (for arenas) is 0.00001%, that's 1000 players. It's a different discussion about pulling resources to make new maps for 1000 extra people.
2. If you manage to attract a big subset of players from the 100+ million, and you attract them by promoting arenas, then it attracts (and possibly floods AoC with) the wrong player base. AoC needs a thriving player base that participates actively in the open world.
You make it sound like players are fixated on a single game type. While there are players out there that only play one specific sub-genre of game, in my experience they aren't the norm.
Not at all. That's why I said a player base that 'generally focuses on arenas' instead of 'exclusively focuses', and it's conditional on them being the ones attracted by marketing/promoting arenas in the first place. Of course there's wiggle room for people who enjoy arenas and other MMO activities.
Based on your previous posts, it seems like you believe the arenas will be purely PvP with little else, but that's incorrect. Maps have to have more interest besides hiding spots otherwise you end up with more avoidance than aggression. Objectives to force players to fight are key for a decent arena experience, and that will end up being very much like League. With the camera orientation, maybe describing it as more Smite-like would be more accurate.
Regardless of which MOBA it'll take after, there's not a doubt in my mind there will be detailed maps made for arena play with "PvE" objectives. Deathmatches are fun for a little bit, but they get dull, especially when there is very little option for alternate builds or playstyles when the only objective is "Be a Murder Hobo".
Can you consider something - anything - to be a PvE objective if the actual objective of adding it to a game in the first place is to force players in to PvP?
IMO, if something has no purpose outside of PvP, then it is PvP concent.
The way you described it is the way I picture it (and hope for) too.
Where I draw a distinction is I see the MMO arena and MOBAs as quite different products, even if the arena was designed just like LoL. This is just because the arena is wrapped in a package alongside a subscription, PvE activities required to get gear (since you can't only arena to get the best gear), a longer levelling curve, etc.
Hence the quotes around “PvE”. Technically the objectives don’t need to involve another player to function, but their purpose is to enable or encourage PvP. Could be a mini boss that gives a temporary buff (aka a jungle mob), it could be the form of simple capture flags, even areas of destructible terrain to make alternate flank pathways could be considered points of contention.
Oh absolutely. I’d be disappointed if an Arena match started everyone from zero each round like League (sort of) does. I can imagine a “skill line” of sorts with minor arena-specific bonuses as players participate in arena matches, but for the most part I think it shouldn’t end up with much different combat mechanics than the rest of the game.
Hey I still enjoy League... sort of. And I'm pretty sure only 2-3 quarters of the the playerbase are angry gremlins fueled by fake internet points and the incessant desire to win without working for it.
You know, back when I played LoL I spent a great deal of time analysing the psychology of the players and had some interesting revelations. The long and the short of it is that perspective is a huge deal, and a lot of LoL players have a bad habit of making judgements based on incomplete information. I saw this all the time on the LoL forums, where someone would make a thread complaining about how rubbish their teammates are , how many trolls they get in their matches, etc etc. Instead of taking what they said at face value I went and watched the replays of the matches they were talking about, and more often than not the person complaining on the forums was very misinformed.
From my experience, the majority of toxicity in LoL stems from miscommunication and judgements based on incomplete information.
That said, none of this has anything to do with putting gameplay elements and design from LoL into Ashes of Creation, so the point is moot.
And yeah, all of that is really just talking about the broad gameplay patterns of the genre, which aren't applicable to an MMO. The smaller stuff, tactical ability design, controls, visual feedback, balancing; that's the good stuff I think every action-y game can learn from. Which is why I still enjoy the game (as a spectator mostly).
Just for another point that doesn't necessarily fit in this thread - the above is why I want to see an in game combat tracker. The better info players have easy access to, the fewer this type of thing will happen. It won't stop it (nothing will), but it will slow it down.
I doubt it will slow it down by much. The people who went onto the LoL forums to complain about their teammates had just as much access to the match replays as I did, yet refused to use them. It's far easier to blindly judge and blame someone than actually investigate what happened.
People take data in the simplest form, either unwilling or unable to look past the first layer.
Absolutely.
To me though, first layer data is anything obtained in game. If you have to go to a replay, or go to a seperate parsing application, that is no longer the first layer of data.
Take a combat tracker (note I am not saying DPS meter), award players points for damage output, healing output, incoming damage mitigation, dodging and blocking, buffs applied to appropriate classes, CC landed, effects cured etc, and then remove points for CC broken, avoidable damage taken, environmental damage taken, direct damage taken by non-tanks, over healing, buffs applied to inappropriate classes etc.
All of a sudden, the first layer of data players have is basically a score of over all effectiveness, both the good and the bad.
Good luck blaming the wrong person then.
I'm not sure whether I totally support this kind of thing, but if it is implemented in conjunction with a full, in depth combat tracker, all it basically is - when broken down - is the same conclusion someone that knows how to assess the full data set would come to.
And we're back to awarding points to individuals in team-based gameplay, which I am vehemently against.
Is it really "awarding points" if they are neither accumulated nor transferrable for anything? All it is, when you look at it, is a parse that takes all aspects of combat in to consideration rather than just DPS. The "points" you get from it would he exactly as useful as the "points" you get from a DPS meter in WoW.
Any team is only ever as good as it's weakest link, and while I agree that members of a team shouldn't be awarded material fains for being a better member of their group than another, knowing how good each member of your group is/was should never be looked down on.
Part of being in a team of any description is in getting the best out of your weakest link, and you simply can't do that if you can't identify who that weakest link is.
If the idea of being in a team is to help the whole team get through, qnd if people are going to judge based on the first layer of data, that first layer of data needs to be robust, and the idea that I outlined above is nothing more than data.
But what I want to say that if Ashes of Creation had experience points for PvP like battlegrounds and arenas and gave out some rewards then it would make a sense of progression and people would not be so inclined to burn out.
Now the opposite of this is.....lets say you are at 800 hundred rated and want to break 1000 rated well it might be a long climb to 1000 rated and the entire time not really getting rewarded in any way by the game so it may seem like a long stale grind.
Went through a lot of players that just quit after a short while cause they stopped winning in arenas, basically made it to next bracket so playing against better teams so lost more so they quit. But maybe if they were rewarded however small the reward was and given experience adn levels might of played long enough get good enough to keep playing.
Think metrics are a good idea for competative PvP especially the 5v5 brackets and below, since they are of a more serious nature. No differnet than keeping track of your progress when you go to the gym.
Now that I Have been playing the game for a while noticed that in this game there are a number of things that players have to keep track of.and look for.
As perviously mention some abilities are hard to execute really need some one to root toon for you so like lets say Sions q ability that swe previously mentioned can be executed with two second charge with some one else rooting the toon. Sounds pretty basic I Know. However you usually cannot get the full 2 second charge so when you do it feels special and extra satisfiying. That is one of the central game mechanics in this game.
But it not only applies to synergies in abilities between classes also applies to things like Mana. I know mana management has already has been mentioned. But in this game since it is a thing that has to be managed then you have to keep track of your mana and other players mana also and enemies mana. Good time to attack is when they are low on mana. Yes sounds real simple. But there are other things that are real simple in this game that also require the players to pay attention and when added up you have a game that keep your attention glued to the screen.
Just going to make a list, there is tower damage, timers on dragon spaws, freindly and enemy ultimate abilities. There is also a Mina Map that you should pay attention to so you do not get ambushed there are also other things which do not feel it necessary to mention.
I know that PvP and PvE is different and I am talking about a MOBA but in a nutshell when you are playing this game you are always processing information and data that is pertainent to the game. Think this basic idea could be applied to PvE.
Kind of a theme on these furoms how PvE is gets repatative and boring. I want to add that this game is the most popular game in the world 30 million people on average play this gaem daily so be wrothwhile to look at it.
For anything you have a counter in the form of some item or another champion.
However the most important thing to look for is the power inflation in champions that comes from movement and binary abilities like crowd control.
Also the only place we can look at are the actual late game teamfights. The relation between burst and sustained damage with access to various amount of movement abilities and movement speed in general.
What I've seen time and time again in any rpg or mmorpg is the underestimation of movement and burst damage windows with control abilities - silence, stun, fear or displacement and the actual reach which determines who makes the first strike (stealth classes having this assured unless found in stealth).
There is kind of a "holy trinity" with dealing damage - reach, movement and burst damage with its recharge time (meaning if burst damage is low but has fast recharge we call it sustained damage instead)
All archetypes are going to be able to be represented through these strengths and what I'm worried about is the real possibility that the archetypes are going to be balanced around perfect circumstances.
― Plato
As someone who has been playing league for nearly 5 years I can say that EVERY company has its flaws and riot are in no way free from this. Yes their ability system is good, but it is also incredibly simplistic compared to what you find in MMORPGs. Riot themselves admit to this and accept they need to work harder, which granted is a MASSIVE improvement over companies like Blizzard that seem to think their players owe them something.
The easiest way I can suggest you look at lol champs compared to an mmo is by combining 3-4 into one champion. So like consider a rogue as an archetype. You'd look at khazix's isolated damage, akali and talons mobility/stealth, but then you pick your second archetype so you might go for some fighter in there and get a bit of rengar pounce or irelia stun. Maybe you go a bit of mage and get some diana shielding or Ekko aoe stun. Or you go cleric and get some zed ult or morde w shield/healing.
League is more about your build than the champion you're playing while an mmorpg will focus far more on what your skill choices are and you class.
The comparison is a very hard one to make but the easiest way I keep coming back to is league champions are just simply far more simplistic than what you get mmorpgs. Even gw2 was far more complex and I feel that was the most simplistic mmorpg character design I've seen since legends of mir.
Hope this helps.
It adds a layer of depth that helps to keep the combat replayable.