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Phase I of Alpha Two testing will occur on weekends. Each weekend is scheduled to start on Fridays at 10 AM PT and end on Sundays at 10 PM PT. Find out more here.
Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest Alpha Two news and update notes.
Our quickest Alpha Two updates are in Discord. Testers with Alpha Two access can chat in Alpha Two channels by connecting your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
The True Potential of Ashes of Creation
Magic Man
Member
It is no secret that the genre has been struggling lately as a whole with only few MMORPGs out there that keeps it barely alive. There are themepark titles such as WoW and FFXIV which, in terms of player base make up a good majority of total number of MMORPGers. There are also 'sandbox' MMORPGs such as BDO, EVE Online, Albion Online and some others. Lastly, there are some that could be considered 'hybrids' such as ESO, Archeage and Runescape. They appeal to different kinds of gamers for a variety of subjective reasons.
Most of those games are established titles with healthy populations (in MMO standards) and they always try to keep things interesting by releasing expansions and such. Intrepid plans to combine the best bits of all the aforementioned games in an old school MMORPG manner but with innovative features that may very well change our perception of what an MMORPG can be. At first, some may think that Ashes will feed on the leavers of those games..after all it makes sense, it plans to have everything those games have to offer and more.
However, it may be a little more complicated than that. MMORPG player base, unfortunately, isn't as big as some other genres', therefore, people in the 'hybrid' category, most likely play, or have played the other MMOs mentioned. Some sticked to one or two while others stopped playing constantly a long time ago, only to play when a new expansion releases or stopped playing MMOs altogether...
We all have different reasons for being here. Some are interested in Ashes because they are ''MMO junkies'' who play literally every MMORPG in the market without exception or any set standard (except P2W, that's the red line). Some want this game to be their ''next big thing'' so they associate Ashes with their past MMORPG experiences while others are excited for something fresh and new. One may of course, have all or same of those reasons combined.
With what I've gathered from the currently small, but highly active Ashes community, I listed a number of things that make the genre the way it is now. These are basically what hold a considerable amount of people from enjoying the MMOs in the market:
Ashes promises solutions to all these issues with its five main design pillars which are Engaging and Immersive Story, a Reactive World, Player Interaction, Player Agency, and Risk vs Reward. More details can be found here for new comers: https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Design_pillars
Without doubt, Ashes of Creation will succeed in being one of the top 5 most popular MMORPGs in the market, if it can deliver what's been promised. The concept of it alone had led to 40k+ people backing the game with 700k+ registered accounts. Although it is awesome that these issues will finally be addressed, what I mean by the 'true potential' of Ashes isn't the sheer number of people playing it but something far greater - being an example of a ''successful MMORPG'' therefore changing the genre for good. I just think of the MMOs, 10 years from now that may try and copy or perhaps even improve the mechanics of Ashes..and that gets me excited all over again 🙂 It may seem too early to even type these and all of this is based on the scenario that the game does successfully launch with full compliance to its design pillars and non P2W stance but I believe Intrepid can bring the change to this genre and help it return to its glory days with its extremely talented and dedicated developers 🐝💚
What are your thoughts on this glorious Ashes Community - to what extent do you agree or disagree with me?
Most of those games are established titles with healthy populations (in MMO standards) and they always try to keep things interesting by releasing expansions and such. Intrepid plans to combine the best bits of all the aforementioned games in an old school MMORPG manner but with innovative features that may very well change our perception of what an MMORPG can be. At first, some may think that Ashes will feed on the leavers of those games..after all it makes sense, it plans to have everything those games have to offer and more.
However, it may be a little more complicated than that. MMORPG player base, unfortunately, isn't as big as some other genres', therefore, people in the 'hybrid' category, most likely play, or have played the other MMOs mentioned. Some sticked to one or two while others stopped playing constantly a long time ago, only to play when a new expansion releases or stopped playing MMOs altogether...
We all have different reasons for being here. Some are interested in Ashes because they are ''MMO junkies'' who play literally every MMORPG in the market without exception or any set standard (except P2W, that's the red line). Some want this game to be their ''next big thing'' so they associate Ashes with their past MMORPG experiences while others are excited for something fresh and new. One may of course, have all or same of those reasons combined.
With what I've gathered from the currently small, but highly active Ashes community, I listed a number of things that make the genre the way it is now. These are basically what hold a considerable amount of people from enjoying the MMOs in the market:
- Hand holding which is the main issue for many
- Mediocre stories in story based MMOs
- Pay to win
- non-immersive worlds (includes many things)
- PvP being afterthought and even then giving no real reason to participate in it
- Almost no real challenge in quests
- Too simple dungeons/raids until the end game
- Too slow/too fast, unstrategic/unengaging combat
- Unappealing UI
- No real meaning or consequences to your actions
- Almost no risk involved other than RNG elements
Ashes promises solutions to all these issues with its five main design pillars which are Engaging and Immersive Story, a Reactive World, Player Interaction, Player Agency, and Risk vs Reward. More details can be found here for new comers: https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Design_pillars
Without doubt, Ashes of Creation will succeed in being one of the top 5 most popular MMORPGs in the market, if it can deliver what's been promised. The concept of it alone had led to 40k+ people backing the game with 700k+ registered accounts. Although it is awesome that these issues will finally be addressed, what I mean by the 'true potential' of Ashes isn't the sheer number of people playing it but something far greater - being an example of a ''successful MMORPG'' therefore changing the genre for good. I just think of the MMOs, 10 years from now that may try and copy or perhaps even improve the mechanics of Ashes..and that gets me excited all over again 🙂 It may seem too early to even type these and all of this is based on the scenario that the game does successfully launch with full compliance to its design pillars and non P2W stance but I believe Intrepid can bring the change to this genre and help it return to its glory days with its extremely talented and dedicated developers 🐝💚
What are your thoughts on this glorious Ashes Community - to what extent do you agree or disagree with me?
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Comments
Agreed.
I kind of agree with you, but I also don't really see how Ashes is going to solve some of the "issues" listed above.
Hand holding in most games is only there to get people in to the game and it's mechanics. With very few exceptions, the hand holding doesn't last long.
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Mediocre stories is an issue to many games, but other than Intrepid telling us that they plan to have interesting stories, I've not seen anything to suggest this is the case.
The website only has one writer listed, and they are listed as a junior writer at that. So while I'm hopeful that the game will have a solid over all story, as well as many interesting smaller stories, I have no reason at this stage to expect this to actually happen.
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Challenging quests is another thing I have no reason to assume Ashes will make any changes to the status quo on. Because of the way the world will work with nodes and such, quests will be much harder to actually develop, and I would imagine that a lot of time that would go in to making them enjoyable quests (whether through unique mechanics, good story telling or outright balanced challenge) will be taken up instead by simply making quests work within the constraints of the node system.
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Low level dungeons and raids are easy because if they are hard, players won't run them.
The only way to get more than a token number of players running actual challenging content while leveling up is to actually force them to run it in order to continue to level up. This would generate more complaints than a lack of challenging leveling content would generate
Because of this, imo it is up to those of us that understand this situation to "politely inform" those that complain about a lack of challenging content below max level of the reason for this being the case, and asking them to come up with a solution to the problem themselves.
So, do you have a solution to this problem?
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Combat is very subjective - which is why you have had to say that combat being both too fast and too slow are issues. This isn't something that any game could get right, because what is too fast for one player is too slow for another. While some people think WoW has deep combat, the rest of us recognize combat in that game as little more than a spoonful of water.
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I find it hard to call UI an issue of the MMO genre. I don't know why this is on the list.
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Risk is another odd one to have on this list. The only thing in any game that is at risk is time. If the game has an experience penalty, it takes time to get that back. If it is an equipment penalty, it takes time to get that back. If it is a currency penalty, it takes time to get that back.
Since everything in a game can be obtained with time, time is the only penalty that can be applied - and this the only thing we are ever risking.
While it may be true that games over the last few years have all been averse to too much risk, that doesn't mean it is an issue with MMO's that needs to be solved. MMO's know how to put players time at risk, they have simply made the conscious decision to not do it.
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Now, I hope Ashes succeeds as much as anyone. I'm just not willing to say Ashes has the potential to be anything more than a fairly good game.
The most likely thing that will see players leave Ashes once the game is live is if it doesn't live up to their expectations - regardless of whether it is a good game or not.
If people expect a game that is genre changing in all aspects in the above list, then people will be disapointed, because it is not going to fix all of those problems (some of which can't even be called problems).
On the other hand, if all people expect from Ashes is for it to be a fairly good game, then people will be happy when Ashes meets their expectations.
....and then we get games like Pokemon Sword/Shield, Fallout76, Ghost Recon Breakpoint, Warcraft 3 Reforged, etc that are buggy broken pieces of crap. You'll notice that these crap games all come from very successful franchises that we used to love, from very experienced companies. Now there are many different reasons for this kind of thing to happen but my point is that just because a game makes a breakthrough and shines a light for the industry to follow doesn't mean the other companies will follow.
"You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink!"
@noaani when it comes to game difficulty, from my experience the biggest problem isn't so much the difficulty itself but the lack of a smooth learning and difficulty curve. Most mmorpgs I've played in the last decade have all suffered from huge difficulty spikes that divide the playerbase. A lot of the time this is done through poor gear progression systems. Games like to overpower players early on to get them to play but eventually the players reach a point where being overpowered or overgeared isn't enough. At that point if the game hasn't taught the players how to play properly, the players will fail and cry about how hard the game is.
It's not just about raw power either, but skills and mechanics. A lot of mmorpgs put certain mechanics into their combat but never teach the players about them, then expect them to use those mechanics at end-game. Naturally a lot of players (particularly the more inexperienced ones) get lost and stuck when they are forced to use these mechanics and it's almost like having to relearn the game from scratch.
So, not only do you need to have a smooth difficulty curve through the levelling phase but if you expect players to use a particular mechanic at end-game, you need to introduce it to them during the levelling phase and (more importantly) get the players to practice those mechanics as they level up. There is zero point in showing players a mechanic at level 1 and then not make them use it for the next 50-60 levels. By the time they need to use that mechanic again they will have forgotten about it and have to relearn it.
There is one game that does this very well and that is Astral Chain for the Nintendo Switch. That game has a very smooth learning curve, slowly introducing different combat mechanics at a manageable pace and regularly putting in obstacles that require you to use them. Sekiro also does this quite well with its deflection mechanic. This is a skill that is taught early on and throughout the main story you are given plenty of opportunities to practice it. This means that by the time you reach the later bosses that require you to know the deflection mechanic you are already very comfortable with it.
It is a fine line between holding players hands and giving players tools and letting them figure things out for themselves.
This is just one more of those things where developers simply can not win over all, as no matter which way they go, someone will be unhappy.
However, players in a game where developers give us tools and leave it to us are able to then learn how to use those tools. Players in a game that holds hands are unable to get away from that hand holding.
Because of this, if I were a developer, I'd opt to err on the side of giving players those tools.
I personally think a bigger issue than the game being too easy or too hard is that too many players are not willing to learn off of other players. There are far more players willing to teach than there are players willing to learn.
There is a big difference between showing players a mechanic exists and hand-holding them through it, particularly if it's a mechanic not found in many other games of the genre. For example, one of the core gameplay mechanics in GW2 is the Defiance Bar, and end-game PvE content relies heavily on it. It is NEVER mentioned or even really encountered in the game until you reach level cap. I levelled my first character to max and never knew about this at all (I assumed bosses were always immune to CC like they are in most other mmorpgs that I have played).
It was only when I was looking up some raid boss guides for GW2 that I first heard of the defiance bar. Now I get the whole "gives us the tools and let us figure it out" line but how can you expect us to use the tools if we don't even know they exist? Imagine I gave you a PC to open up but didn't tell you about this wonderful tool called a screwdriver, what would you do?
Again, I think Sekiro did this kind of thing very well. Near the beginning of the game you are introduced to the deflection mechanic. Just before a fight begins you get a pop-up that explains the basics of the mechanic, and then gives you a bunch of enemies (including a miniboss) to practice on. That's it. No hand-holding, just a basic explanation of the mechanic and after that it lets the player figure out the timing and application. If players are really struggling with the gameplay there is a completely optional practice/tutorial area where you can practice certain mechanics in an isolated environment without risking dying and losing your progress.
This is the deflection tutorial and associated miniboss (21:25 on the video).
I'd look at the screws, notice the cross patterns on each them, and make the assumption that a tool exists to fit them. Those screws wouldn't exist in that manner if there were not a reason for it. If I then found said tool, I wouldn't automatically know which way to turn it to get the screw out, but it is only a matter of trial and error to get that sorted.
Sometimes you can assume a tool exists, and even know it's shape and purpose, without ever having seen the tool.
Developers in an MMO are not going to put content in the way of players without giving us the tools to take it on. As players, it is (sometimes) on us to find those tools.
I totally agree that some mechanics need to be explained to players as they level up. As far as I am concerned, that is the actual point of leveling up - it is all a tutorial for the real game at that level cap.
However, if a mechanic is only to be used on raid encounters, it should not be taught outside of raid encounters. Since very few games force raid content on lower level players, there is no opportunity to teach players these things. Additionally, if a mechanic that is only used on raid encounters other than when it is taught to players, all players not interested in raiding have a valid reason to complain that their time was wasted in learning that mechanic.
As far as I am concerned, once a player gets up to raid content, they should be at a stage where either they themselves or someone else in their raid can see the screw and realize they need to find the screw driver. If no one can see that, then the raid as a whole deserves to fail - as a good portion of raid success is problem solving.
Now, if we were talking about a system or mechanic that becomes essential for all soloing once you hit the level cap, I'd agree that this is poor game design and that I hope Ashes can do better...
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As for Sekiro, my brother (the same one that plays WoW) played it when it first came out. I don't like linear games at all (I'm the kind of person that goes around the race track backwards because "you can't tell me what to do") and so didn't play it at all, but I have seen a lot of the content.
The way that game introduces concepts to players works ok for the style of game that it is (slightly too disruptive imo). However, it wouldn't work at all in an MMORPG - especially not a sandbox.
Now, I realize that there are other ways to teach concepts like this to players, however, my main issue with this in a sandbox MMO is that in order for that kind of thing to work, developers need to essentially force players to take on specific content that teaches specific things they want players to know. There is no point putting in a piece of tutorial content if players aren't required to complete it.
While I'm personally all for gating leveling progress until players perform specific tasks, most players don't much like it.
Something like CC is hard. You have the classes that have and use CC, and them learning it is fairly easy. However, in most games successful CC use is about the rest of the people in the group or raid - and making sure they know not to attack/use AoE/what ever else the game requires for CC to be effective.
That to me falls in to players learning the basics of skills that other classes have, and is a somewhat advanced concept. This is why no game that I have ever played has required CC to level up - it is only ever required on actual advanced content where the developers have a reasonable expectation that players will have a general idea of how all abilities in the game function, not just the abilities of their own class.
May be Ashes will be better, but as it is in all games, I'd expect players of non-CC classes to learn about CC from players with CC abilities, not from any in game tutorial.
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I've never seen an issue with interrupts. I have nothing to add to that.
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Dodging is such a core concept of the classes that use it that it should be shown to players of the appropriate class after they have been shown the basics of ASDW and jump. If you are a tank in a game with active dodging (or blocking) that is the next most important thing, and so the next thing to be shown.
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I'd love it if games blocked off content above a specific level until you proved you were able to do a specific thing that would be expected of your class. I personally think that would lead to better players at end game, which would lead to (imo) a better end game community.
However, as I said, most players don't like that idea.
If you are a developer, and you are not allowed to gate players off, which of these two do you think would be better content to make for - lets just randomly say - a level 30 dungeon.
The first is a zone that is full of mobs that require complete focus. Dodging, CC, high levels of healing, a good amount of DPS required. Everyone needs to be on their best game, or the group will simply wipe.
The second is a zone where the content is a bit easier, you don't need to concentrate quite as much. There is time for chatter, and there is time to look at the zones decor, allowing the developer to put an interesting unwritten story in to the zone - may be even tie in a piece of lore from the larger game story - and have a reasonable expectation that players will at least notice it.
If you make the first zone, how many level 30 players do you think will run it?
What about the second?
The rewards for a zone like this aren't exactly a selling factor, as by the time you've completed the zone you have probably out leveled them anyway. The only things that matter in deciding what zone to do at lower levels are the experience gain (which death will impact), and the enjoyment (which death will impact).
Because most players will take the easier route, regardless of what it is, the only way to put those learning situations in the game is to force it on players - and imo that is only ok up to level 5.
Hmm, you seem confused @noaani . Lemme make things a little clearer for you 🙂. All of the issues mentioned above came from the Ashes community. They are not 'made up' stuff. Those are real concerns of many people and most are well known problems not just in this community but also among other gamers who are disappointed of the state genre is currently in. ... well I just said that - I recommend you reread the wiki from the beginning bit by bit and then you may see how they plan to tackle all these issues as I'm not gonna list 200 pages of material here..I put a link for newcomers as I thought most people who are active in the community memorized the wiki by now but apparently not 😅
I will however, go through your answers superficially
- Hand holding does last long unfortunately, especially in themepark titles. If it was really there to get people started by introducing all the mechanics of the game at the beginning and stop there, it wouldn't be an issue now, would it?
- Mediocre stories aren't an issue in many games. Most single player RPGs have well written stories and occasionally we see good ones in MMORPGs as well. Besides, as I said, the issue isn't mediocre stories, it is mediocre stories in story based MMOs. Read ''Engaging and immersive story'' bit from the wiki which covers topics that reflect the past and the present of Verra for more information regarding how Ashes plans to solve this issue.
- Quests in most MMOs are treated as 'work' - simply a means to an end. They are basically running simulators that even 7 y.o could easily complete. In Ashes, It is not only a tool for building the world but an integral part of all the game mechanics. There will be no quest markers such as question marks and exclamation marks telling players where to turn. There will be multiple stages to storyline quests and the player will have to read the quest and make a choice accordingly - and these quests can actually be failed. For this bit, read 'Quests' under 'Reactive World' title on the wiki
- Again, the issue isn't low level dungeons being easy, it is them being ''too easy'', please read carefully. Dungeons in Ashes will be dynamic, regardless of its level and there are many systems in place that makes even the lowest level of dungeons more challenging than the brain dead ones we have in today's MMORPG market. For more information, read 'Dungeons' under 'Player Interaction'.
- Combat is indeed subjective, which isn't the point...again 😒 I listed what the community has said about the combat. Some argued ''too fast and unstrategic'' combat isn't fun while others said the same for ''too slow and unengaging'' combat. The statement ''this isn't something that any game could get right'' is simply not correct. In theory, you could combine the best bits people like about the combat and give them the option to choose their own play style which is where hybrid combat comes in. Read 'Combat' under 'Player Interaction'.
- UI is in fact a major issue in the genre hence why developers bother with hiring talented UI artists. Unlike in most other MMOs which have ugly UI, in Ashes it will be very adaptable and customizable for many play styles. Although it isn't necessarily important for me, several members in the community did complain about it so I put it on the list.
- ''Risk is another odd one on the list''. I don't even know what to say to that. The whole game is being built on the 'Risk vs Reward' principle. ''time is the only thing we are risking'' 😂 Right. It's not like it is the most valuable thing a person has in life. I can't believe I'm explaining this but..everything we do in life, we risk something - mostly our time. Almost anything can be obtained in time. However, Time is running out, and that is what gives life meaning. In games, if the player doesn't risk anything, then simply there is no meaning to it. E.g you've dedicated time towards building a node and other players have dedicated that equivalent time towards sieging the node, there's going to be a pitched battle between those players... They spend that time doing this because they care passionately about having access to that content. – Steven Sharif. For more information, read the whole freaking heading ''Risk vs Reward''.
'' I'm just not willing to say Ashes has the potential to be anything more than a fairly good game.'' From what I've read, you are not qualified to make that statement as you don't understand what the game even has to offer. So again, I recommend you to read the wiki or Ashes101 website Jahlon has been working on for more information.
That is very true @Wandering Mist . Yet one should remember that the game did succeed in having 40k+ backers and 800.000+ registered accounts - and that is just the concept of the game. If it can deliver on what's been promised, the number should multiply. Only time will tell but it wouldn't be wrong to say this is no mere 'WoW killer' but something, desperate people of this genre are highly interested in. Heck and that is only with very limited info they have of the game..
but
There are few other things that I have picked up from the community that you did not mention.
There are those who abhore pvp they want only the citizen part of the fantasy world experience, there are plenty of people who want only farming or husbandry or alchemy etc...
There's a legitimate disgust and fear towards the "trolls" who would use the mechanics of the game to just be annoying and many would blame developers for bugs, allowing bots and otherunpopular methods to exist in a game.
I think the developers might find use in a big survey before they do some of the mechanics, but then again the community manager @LieutenantToast or the ceo himself @Steven Sharif are very approachable and friendly and are with us every day so...
The thing about dungeon is, you have to know there are many who "like" to be with friends and there are those who want to solo it.
In an rpg game that is this big there's going to be unimaginable scenarios, and some of us might not like many play styles or mechanics BUT every single thing must find a middle ground to work in order to have a sustainable mmorpg world otherwise the population would get old and dwindling.
Also please remember, I've spoken about the matter of having "idea contest" or thread but there are too many variables and details including copyright stuff that makes it harder for developers to come forward and literally ask for ideas and solutions...
The best would be to give them time and support,. Then they give us options and we can maybe even vote or do survey to help them navigate the tough road.
I didn't say you were wrong, I said the list is wrong.
If the community as a whole thinks Ashes is going to somehow magically fix these issues, then I have no problem is saying the entire community are morons.
I know their plans quite well, but I also know that every MMO has had similar plans, and none have pulled it off as per their plan.
Storytelling is a perfect example. In Copernicus (Green Monster Games/38 Studios cancelled game) we had every reason to be confident on solid storytelling, because they hired R.A. Salvatore to be the creative director of the game, and gave him a few writers early on to work under him.
Right now, Ashes has a single person listed as being on their writing team, and she is only a junior writer. As Steven is Creative Director, we have to assume that includes senior writer.
The only thing we have to go in that Intrepid will have a great story is their word. When we do the only thing we can to fact check that (look at their staff), we all of a sudden have no reason at all to believe it will be true. I mean, literally the only writer they have hired *they* don't even consider good enough to not be a junior.
We can hope it will be true, but we have no reason to believe or assume that it will.
You suggested I read the 'Engaging and immersive story' portion of the wiki. I have, a long time ago. What it contains is the outline of a very generic fantasy world - distinct races, several gods, major calamity. Nothing in that it unique or interesting, it is all just basic stuff that could potentially be used as a backdrop to some enjoyable story telling, but it is by no means an example of enjoyable storytelling.
Right now, we have exactly zero examples of the kinds of things we can expect from the writing team (sic) in Ashes.
On the other hand, we have every reason to assume the music in Ashes will be some of the best in an MMO, due simply to the fact that they have hired Bear McCreary. We are able to look at examples of his work (I always loved the intro to Black Sails, personally) and see the quality of his work.
When looking up to see if the one writer Ashes has hired has anything out there, I stopped almost immediately for reasons that will be obvious if you followed the same investigative path that I did (note, no fault of her or Intrepid).
So, all we have to go on that Ashes will not have the same mediocre story telling that most other MMO's have is the fact that Intrepid say they don't want that.
We have nothing else.
We don't even have an example of any written stories that any of the writers have produced.
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It's not always the case that we have no reason to assume Ashes will do well in a particular thing, in some cases, sometimes it is a case of the complaint can only have come from someone with limited experience in MMO's. No one that has played EvE would claim that there is a wide reaching issue with risk vs reward in the MMO genre - though someone that has only played WoW absolutely could think this.
As stated, that doesn't mean this is an issue in the MMO genre at present that needs to be fixed, and I would argue that Ashes will actually fall quite near the middle of the pack in this regard.
"The community" can claim this all they want, but all that does is point out the limited MMO experience of some of the community.
Now, you could claim that there are no recent titles that come close to EvE in terms of risk vs reward, or that there are no fantasy titles that do it, but if you said that you would then be open to having people point out that there is a reason there are not many titles that take it to that level, and that Ashes will not take it that far.
If there is one game in the genre (especially one as well known, long standing and respected within the industry as EvE), then you have to make the assumption that every game since then has considered going that far - though for most games that consideration may have only lasted a few seconds.
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The last one I am going to look in to right now is quests.
Your defense that Ashes will have a better questing scene than other MMO's is because Intrepid say so. I know this may be enough for some, but I personally need more than "what we say is true, because we said it's true".
We have no examples, just hopes and dreams.
Since a good portion of what makes a quest enjoyable and memorable, we are then able to cast an eye back up to the writing team, look at how it is currently lacking (at least according to all the information we have access to), and then go back to asking ourselves how a game can make thousands of interesting, immersive quests with only one junior writer on staff.
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Now, again, I hope Ashes is the game we all want it to be, just as everyone else here does.
However, Intrepid telling me Ashes will be all of these things is not enough, because that is what every game developer says about their game.
Every MMO developer thinks their game is the best - other than Tabula Rasa. They knew that game was a steaming pile of crap, but they still CLAIMED it was good.
I mean, Neowiz thought Bless Online was a good game.
If you want to take the developers word for the fact that their product is what they say it is, without actually looking in to whether that developer has the staff on hand to pull off the specifics of what they claim (or any other number of factors), that's cool - just expect others to criticize your thinking.
That said, I do agree with the general statement - if Intrepid pull Ashes off as per their stated intentions, it will be good.
Thing is, as I've said, literally every other MMO ever (including those never released) all claimed their game was going to be basically the same.
No one ever advertised their MMO as being "the second best WoW clone released this year!".
I also have to note , having entire world of lore does not make the "presentation" to average player appealing as wording is such a huge factor in storytelling.
But background cant always be insurance as we have seen how franchises fall from grace.
In general i think you Are both talking about different aspects, @Magic Man is talking about the vibes and his own beliefs about aoc.
While @noaani is i think being a tad bit too harsh on intrepid (not on fault or anything) but merely because to him/her the evidence is yet not enough.
Also @noaani i am typing with phone and its painful to quote and i wanted to avoid misunderstanding
I expect the music in this game to be on par with any game (not just any MMO) ever released. This is an expectation that has foundation, rather than just "because Intrepid say so".
Also agree that I am being harsh on Intrepid - but only because Intrepid have made big claims and so far we have little to show for it.
If Intrepid suddenly hired a well known (and good) fantasy writer (as 38 hired R.A. Salvatore), then I would suddenly have reason to believe that the story telling in Ashes will be as good as they say. Right now, the writing staff at Intrepid is unknown - we know of one writer but none of their work.
I'd love it if Ashes did meet the hopes Intrepid have for it (or that players have for it), but my skepticism is based on the fact that very few games (let alone MMO) have ever met the expectations of the people that made it.
Look at Warcraft 3 right now. Look at Fallout76. Look at Bless. Look at Tabula Rasa.
Even more than I'd like Ashes to be what Intrepid want it to be, I want what ever form it takes to be successful. A key aspect of it being successful is if the game meets the expectations players have of it.
Most people on these forums know I'll stand up for the game and for Intrepid if I think someone is being unfair, but the reverse of that should also be true, and if someone holds them up too high, I will tell that person to bring it back a bit.
That is what is happening here.
We are talking about how aspects of Ashes could change the MMO genre, when we have no reason at all to think some of the aspects we are talking about will be any better than those same aspects in other games.
That is a discussion that needs to be pulled right back down to reality.
Alright, we are making progress. You have accepted that there are issues in the genre. That is good. Because I was about to think that you want it to stay the same and Ashes be only a 'fairly good game' that fits nicely next to other 'fairly good' MMORPGs in the market.
Le sigh I'm gonna keep this short.
Your argument can be summarized in 3 points.
I must say, this is much more factual than your other ill-informed comment. However, It still doesn't answer my question of whether you agree or disagree with me when I say the true potential of Ashes is, it being an exemplary MMORPG in the genre that will change the industry for good.
1 - the main concerns of people in this community do not stem from their lack of MMORPG experience or anything of that kind. They are just tired of the crap the genre has been feeding them with and they want it to reach its full potential. It does not make them 'morons' just because Ashes offers solutions to all these problems, at least in concept - which is the key bit you are missing.
2 - nah, Intrepid is more than qualified to make this come true with its extremely talented developers who have worked on multiple massive projects before. About the story writing...The game is built on Steven's Pathfinder campaign. He has been working on the story and lore of Ashes for 13 years. So in terms of material, they should be there. What is left to writers is to adopt all of it to the MMORPG theme which shouldn't be too hard. I also have no doubt that Jeffrey Bard has been doing an excellent job of preparing texts for the quests - which is what I assume he's doing when he's not in design meetings (since he said he writes them and we have multiple examples of such quest texts).
3 - Yes, until we see/play the Alphas and Betas, it is all a vain promise....But wait!! What? could this actually be mentioned by OP multiple times throughout the thread?!?!...no fucking way man....no. fucking. way.
@noaani I believe your extreme skepticism comes from not knowing how much Ashes has revealed and how in depth the concepts have been explained with 8,569 pages gathered from hundreds of hours of footage (which is something you never see with any game in development). This is why I recommended you to reread the wiki from the beginning, bit by bit.
I'm also a skeptic but not on the design side because I know they got that covered. Mine stems from possible technical difficulties due to how ambitious the project is. I do agree however, developers always claim their games will be the best and it turns out to be mediocre - but this won't be the case with Ashes for 2 reasons. One is the fact that Intrepid has admitted there are some major issues in the genre (accepting that the problem exists is the first but the most crucial step when tackling any issue) and the second is that they keep us - the community involved in the development process; did you know every month, LT is gathering data from all social platforms and shares them with the devs which sometimes alters the course of development? + there will be no NDA on Alphas (real-real alphas, not bullshit ones with an already complete product) which means that people will provide feedback and Intrepid will take those into consideration.
The second isn't.
Intrepid have no finished hiring, and likely have not shown us all of the staff they have hired.
Sticking with the writing side of things, I fully expect them to hire a senior writer at some point. Until they do though, we can't make the assumption that they have the ability to make good on their ideas. I don't have extreme skepticism, just a healthy dose of reality.
The only thing that is extreme here is the blind faith of some members of this community - which is what this thread is based on.
I've read over a good amount of the wiki. Most of what is contained isn't exactly going in to great depth on systems - and some of it is contradictory (a result of Intrepid changing things, but the wiki not, no doubt).
They talk a lot about their intention with systems and mechanics, but nothing past that. Every product developer always has the best intentions, but not every company has the skilled staff to pull off every idea.
You shouldn't confuse what they want a system to be with what that system ends out being, because those things are rarely the same thing (and this is why Intrepid have been more tight lipped recently - they have realized that some of the things they have stated they wanted will have to be changed).
The only things we really have to judge how closely Ashes will be to what they have said they want it to be is the body of work of their staff, and the game they have let us play so far.
Some aspects of that are shaping up well, some are not.
and we are back to the beginning.
This thread is not based on blind faith, rather it asks you, the community about your thoughts regarding the true potential of Ashes of Creation, if they deliver what's been promised. It was really that simple...but your ignorance on the matter made things worse @noaani. You either are incapable of understanding what you read or you are doing this intentionally.
You keep claiming to have read the wiki in detail, yet you even attempted to make an argument against ''risk vs reward''...so I dunno what to say really..and no, the systems are explained in good detail, hence why we have 8569 pages worth of material - and the game isn't even in alpha yet. ''eVeRy pRoDuCt dEvElOpEr aLwAyS hAs GoOd InTeNtIoNs'' do they really? 🤨 Because it seems like they are focusing on making money rather than tackling the issues that have plagued the genre for years. ''not every company has the skilled staff to pull off every idea - right, especially indie studios which are actually trying to innovate but don't have the means to do so, hence fail most of the time. Luckily this isn't an issue for Ashes, as they have great staff who are are multi disciplinary. They can cross over from art to coding in the blink of an eye, Bacon is one such example.
Yes, yes, as I said 5..or 6 🤨 times, we have to wait and see ---- which isn't the point..as this discussion was built around the concept of the game and the material we have now.
If this game turns out to be what Intrepid are aiming for (first hypothetical), what impact will it have on the genre (second hypothetical).
You can't construct a simple conversation of a hypothetical on top of another hypothetical - that is like balancing a ball on top of another ball, but where both of them are greased up. My "argument" against risk vs reward is that it is a stupid thing for people to assume a game is going to fix, and thus a stupid thing to have a discussion around.
Risk vs reward is a spectrum, from WoW's almost no risk through to EvE's risking everything you have on you, all the time.
Ashes will fall somewhere in the middle of all of that, and so isn't able to do anything new.
This kind of thing is beneath you.
This isn't that much of a help in large projects.
It's useful as a project is ramping up - as someone that can get a few different aspects of the project up and running is great. But once the workflow gets more focused, it becomes less useful. Having someone that can code and create character art is great if there is only one person on each of those teams, but that flexibility becomes somewhat less valuable when there are 12 people (or more) on each of those teams.
In fact, on larger projects it can very quickly become a hindrance, as this person would be unable to always be up to date with what each of the teams is doing, and may well cause issues. I don't see this happening with Bacon specifically, as I'm sure he's already been through that in the past, and knows how to not cause more issues than he solves when working in different aspects of development.
But speaking from experience, you want to keep people within specific and focused teams as much as possible on projects of 50 or more people. Communication between them is fantastic, and a knowledge of what the other teams are doing is also fantastic, but that's where it ends.
That aside, all projects have specialist skills that you don't want to use a jack-of-all-trades for - music production (all sound production, really), writing and motion capture are among the specialist skills that fit this bill - and you want someone (or a team of people) that is laser focused on these specific tasks to perform them.
Now, while I expect motion capture to be outsourced, and we know who is doing the music (though not sure about the rest of the games sounds yet), the writing is still unaccounted for as far as we know.
Since the writing of the games dialogue and such accounts for the story telling and immersion of the world, we can't really have much of a discussion about this until there is a writer on staff.
We don't have any idea of how they plan on telling stories either - so with no senior writer, no mention of how they plan to tell stories, no sample of what we can expect from stories, no previous body of work from the writers, we have no reason to expect (at this stage) that Intrepid will hold true with their desire to have an immersive world and good story telling.
Because we have literally nothing at all to go on here, we can't even have a discussion about how good the story in Ashes will be, or whether we like the method of delivery or not. We literally have nothing other than a statement that they want to have a good story.
If your original post had limited it's scope to include music and game design (things that we are able to look up past works of key team leaders), then we have a valid discussion. As soon as you bring up things that we literally have nothing at all to talk about, your notion for discussion ceases to be valid.
Yes, a hypothetical discussion, just like all the discussions we have here. You can, in fact, discuss a probable future with the requirement of 2 interdependent conditions being met. It's quite common in both academia and business world.
Yes, Ashes will indeed fall somewhere between that - and this as a good example of finding a good balance of game mechanics for different kind of players. There aren't any MMOs that could find a good balance -so it's a good discussion to have.
You are right, that was uncalled for.
Agreed all the way till here @noaani
We do know how they will tell the stories - that is mainly through storyline quests (Narrative - divided into 3 categories:
and Events - things that are happening in the world - All of the events are based around storytelling. All of the the narrative quests are based around storytelling. All the organizational quests are based around storytelling. You know the game is built from a story basically, so we want to make sure that there's context and relevancy for all of the actions that you're doing in the game. – Jeffrey Bard
The overarching narrative is that players are the returning children of Verra. They will not be characterized individually as "saviors".
Even player driven mechanics will still have story components. There will be a reason why the player driven mechanic is available or required of the player; so you know every system that's created touches a story. – Steven Sharif
We have many examples of story telling. In APOC for instance, we see the story during the initial stages the fall 'Exodus'. In total we have 47 entries of this - https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Ashes_of_Creation_Apocalypse_lore
Other than that, pages of materials can be found here with lots of stories - https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Lore
All in all, we have enough materials to discuss the true potential of Ashes of Creation with the material we have, which is, I say again, although just concepts, is a lot (8,569 pages).
There is no balance, nor right or wrong. There is only personal preference, and every person has a unique preference.
As I said, to suggest that Ashes will do anything here that other games have not is absurd. No, we don't.
Will the stories be told mostly via NPC dialogue? If so, will that dialogue have voice acting or not? Will NPC's have multiple branches of inquiry you can optionally engage them in so that you can learn more about the game world?
Will the stories of the world be mostly told through third party narration?
Will the stories of the world be told through passive means? (note; by far the best method of story telling in an RPG)
Will the stories of the world be told through books?
We don't know.
Knowing that they plan to have a few different quest lines (as literally every other RPG in existence has had) does not tell us how they intend to tell their stories.
The lore pages you refer to are not stories - they are the generic framework of the world that stories may be able to be built upon.
Not only do we not have any stories, but right now we don't even have any characters revealed to us that Intrepid could use to tell stories.
Can you name one character - a hero, a villain, a priest, a merchant, a commoner, anyone - from Ashes lore? No? That is because we don't have any. All we have is a rough timeline of events that took place long in the past, and a brief overview of religions.
Without characters, we have no story, so don't try and send me off to a wiki page that is about the history of Verra claiming it is a story.
The problem with this is that you are skipping a step.
Instead of asking if we think Ashes will see it's full potential (a valid question to ask, and one I am choosing to answer instead of the asinine one asked), you are simply making the assumption that it will, and then asking what we think that will mean for the genre.
Ashes won't reach the full potential of what Intrepid want it to be, so a discussion on what that may mean for MMO's is absolutely pointless.
Even the "best" mmorpgs have huge flaws in them, and I have no doubt that Ashes will follow in that line. Potential is all well and good but right now we don't have much more than Intrepid's word to go on. Now I'm not saying that Intrepid ARE going to fail, I will reserve judgement until I've had a chance to experience the game with my own 2 hands. But at the same time I'm not going to make the mistake of thinking Ashes is going to change the world even if they do deliver everything they promise.
My biggest concern is that Intrepid will try too hard to please everyone. This never works. It is impossible to please everyone equally and trying to often leads to disappointing more people than you please.
One thing to keep in mind with all of this is that Ashes of Creation is very much Steven's game. It's HIS vision, HIS ideals that are shaping the game, based on HIS mmorpg experience. Because of this there is a high chance that he will do things that he believes are right for the game, but may turn out wrong.
As for story, we actually haven't seen too much of that yet. Most of the lore has been basic worldbuilding, which is different to story. Right now Intrepid (through APOC) are laying down the foundations. This is how the world is, why it is like that and what happened to make it this way. The story won't actually begin until we first log in to the mmorpg.
IMO, There is potential for some value in discussion as to whether or not Ashes will meet it's potential, and which areas we think are likely or not likely.
There is also - once again imo - value in realistic discussion as to what we think we could all expect from the game when it launches. This is a discussion that is only able to be discussed in general terms right now, as we know nothing at all specific about the game.
Where there is no value at all - still imo, of course - is in any discussion where we just assume everything has gone exactly to plan.
That isn't just in terms of this game - it is in terms of life in general. You never just assume things will go according to a very complex plan that is still years in the making, and then have a discussion as to what it will mean when that plan is realized.
There is no value in that. It is little more than discussing dreams.
uhm, no it's not.
Some will, others you will discover in Verra. At the village stage of a scientific node, you will use the library to access information about the events that happened in the world. Each server will have different events and outcomes depending on what players choose in the storyline.
Okay, now I'm 100% sure you have no idea what the fuck are you talking about nor you actually read the wiki in detail @noaani . As it has been stated multiple times, there will be no voice acting in Ashes.
Yes. Go. read. the. wiki. In fact that is one of the main ways of accessing information - however, NPCs are not omniscient. There will be rumors and some will turn out to be wrong.
No.
As I've stated, all you do in the game will have story components. So yes, there will be a sense of 'discovery' rather than things being fed into you. There will be stories you discover that tells you indirectly of what happened in the world millenniums ago through one of the character's experiences.
lol, just answered that.
You don't know - just like many other people who dwell on the forums here. I know you are incapable of understanding what you read, but at least give it a try. Your ignorance gives you unprecedented confidence about matters you have no idea about.
In those ''lore pages'' you speak of, there are links that take you to stories, one of them being Dillia's diary.
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Dillia's_diary
You dumb..dumb person.
Yes, this is based on the scenario that Ashes does reach its full potential. It is not 'asinine' nor anything to be surprised about. As I said before, this kind of discussion is done quite frequently both in academia and business world - tho you are probably not an accomplished person in neither of the communities so, I don't expect you to fully grasp this.
If you just said ''I find this discussion to be pointless as there are many conditions to be met. I'm personally not a fan of this kind of discussions so can't really answer your question'' I'd respect your decision and move on. But you kept talking about things which you were absolutely clueless about, claiming that you knew everything, having read the wiki and knowing ''their plans quite well''.
I wanted to reach an understanding with you (despite your ignorance and 'asinine' nature) with my last post but now I return to my original statement because you don't deserve it.
From what I've read, you are not qualified to make that statement as you don't understand what the game even has to offer. So again, I recommend you to read the wiki or Ashes101 website Jahlon has been working on for more information.
Someone you otter know.
hm I get what you are trying to say @Wandering Mist yet there are flaws in your logic. Indeed, everything has potential. That does not mean everything has the same potential. Let's go with your example. Every newborn baby do not have the potential to be the next Albert Einstein, no..not at all. There are many factors in place including genetics, the country he was born in and his family's socio-economic status. Some have more potential than others. This is the same for Ashes; it has more potential than any MMORPG that had planned to release (ever since Everquest Next imo). The holy grail of gaming is when software development and art become one thing. intrepid is pretty close imo. They have a vision and means to achieve that. This doesn't mean, of course, they will achieve their goal but the thread asks you what if they do achieve it.
Fair enough. That's completely your choice and I respect that.
They literally said this game won't be for everyone
- Steven Sharif
So you probably don't have to worry about that.
Correct. Yet what he've said (and he said a lot) sounds appealing to many hence 800.000 registered accounts - just for the concept of the game
Indeed. Tho they did reveal a little. Do note that story will be created by the players and will differ from server to server depending on players' choices.
The key word there is "concept". Here is the core concept of Ashes of Creation (taken straight from their website):
There are many games which have the same core concept as this, and it's a concept that naturally appeals to a lot of gamers. Yet, all of these games handle this concept in very different ways. It should also be noted that just because 800,000 players register accounts with the game doesn't mean they will actually play it, even if Intrepid deliver on everything they promise.
You can some time found 7 infos on one page and find 7 others pages with those 7 infos but each one have his own page...
PS: @Magic Man @noaani your debate is very interesting.
Opposing a rigorous realism vs a well informed optimism results in pointing out where IS has still progress to do in communication.
However, this thread is trying to claim that this game is the next Einstein, before the kid is even born.
I'll reply to your other post in 12 hours or so. Multi-quote posts from a phone are hard.
No, thread simply says it has the potential to be the 'next Einstein', based on the concepts and information we have available to us.
The odd thing is, this is the one aspect of Ashes that we have a fairly good understanding of.
IN a PvP game, the bulk of the risk comes from other players - so we know what level of risk we are facing. We also have a fairly good understanding of how much we are risking (raw materials in general, finished items if we are corrupt, experience, stats etc).
None of this is unique to Ashes, and so I can't see how anyone can claim that they are doing something new here. I listed the most common means of delivering stories to players, rather than specifically suggesting they could be used in Ashes. The point was, we don't actually know how the stories as a whole will be communicated.
This is far deeper than simply will the NPC's have voice acting or not.
Now, as for the link you provided - yeah, I've read all of that. I've always considered all of that as simply being a part of the world building that Intrepid needed to do - I certainly hope the characters contained within don't turn out to be in any way important to the game when we finally get in to it, as that is an overly underwhelming introduction to them if that is the case.
It is, however, my fault for using "needs a character" as a definition for a story which is clearly present here, so I'm happy to accept criticism here.
However, if we go back to the point I was making in terms of writing and communicating stories (that we have no reason to believe it will be any better than any other game), I have a simple question to ask you; are you considering that link you provided me as evidence that Ashes will have good story telling?
If you answer this by saying that no, you don't consider it to be that, then I would suggest you consider all of those links to be what I considered them to be originally (part of world building rather than stories). In this case, the link is pointless in the over all discussion.
On the other hand, if you consider it to be evidence of how Intrepid want to deliver stories to us in game, I'll then have to pick it apart. if you opt for this, I'll start with the simple fact that it is titled as a diary, but not written as if it were, nor is there any attempt to speak with the voice of the subject.
With just the two words in the title, I've already found two issues that make this sub-par in terms of expected quality for narration in an MMORPG.
So this is either world building, or it is shit story telling - I'm happy for you to consider it to be either. Regardless, it is not evidence that Ashes will have quality story telling, because it is not quality story telling. While academics (a path I rejected early in life as being full of itself) are busy hypothesizing about how things may be, and business people (a path I rejected more recently due to taking up more resources than they supply) are busy creating worthlessness to keep themselves in a job, I am busy leading the teams that make things happen so that the economy can continue, and the world is able to support academia and business.
That said, I've never seen an academic or business discussion that is talking about a hypothetical that relies on a different hypothetical that has less than a 1% chance of being realized - outside of transportation safety and either physical or data security.