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Taunt and Tank viability in PvP

Having played many MMOs both PvE and PvP I have often found the issue of tanks being a bit less useful than Healers/DPS in PvP. One system which did a great job of making tanks useful in PvP was SWTOR. For everyone who didn't play it: Each tank has a guard which he can place (and switch) on a group member. If the guarded players stands within a certain range of the tank, 50% of the damage is redirected to the tank as well as some damage reduction. Also taunt does decrease the damage a target deals when hitting a player other than the tank while under the taunt effect.
This does not mean that this system should be copied but it is to showcase that there are great ways to make tanks viable in PvP aside from Crowd Control and just absorbing a ton of damage. Because in most MMOs this alone will not make tanks a used specc in PvP. Do you guys know other great usages of taunt or other tank mechanics for PvP? I only played WoW, GW2, SWTOR and FF14 so there are surely more great options :)
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Comments

  • DamoklesDamokles Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    I think that the problem with current tanks is that threat is not managed in the right way most of the time.
    GW2 for example has "tanks" but they dont really FEEL like a tank if you know what i mean? You would think that the GUARDIAN or warrior class would be tanks, but no: the trickster (mesmer) class is the tank in the current meta.
    If they implemented a threat system, where dps classes are actually punished for overaggroing a boss or overpulling extra mobs, then i think more people would appreciate good tanks more. A system, where you actually contributed by giving the dps classes more breathing space for dealing their damage.
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  • zeyjizeyji Member
    Yeah I also remember the rezz-mesmer in GW2. In SWTOR tanks felt like tanks in my opinion (apart from the Dot-spread meta) and the damage reduction from a taunt felt like a fair punishment. It would also be interesting if a taunt would lock on the dps to the tank for a few seconds so they wouldn't be able to target anything else for the duration
  • VentharienVentharien Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    There was actually another tank thread pretty recently where this came up. I like the the idea of damage reduction, but some people thought other after effects of the taunt might work better.
  • the idea around tanks in AoC is control the field so i hope there will be a lot of skills and ways of doing this from reducing damage to taunts and walls but im prety sure tanks will be very unique with theyr skills and how they have an impact in the battlefield, and haveing diferent off classes will allow tanks that rush in directly to the backline allowing them to resist the damage while trying to get the enemy healers to other kind of tanks that protect the front line or back line with tauns and stuff, depend on the skillset u build up the strategy u will use
  • DamoklesDamokles Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Ventharien wrote: »
    There was actually another tank thread pretty recently where this came up. I like the the idea of damage reduction, but some people thought other after effects of the taunt might work better.

    The other thread was about tanks in PvP, this is more general i believe^^
    But yeah i would also like the taunt to be applicable in PvP.
    If you know Karma from LoL, then something like her bind animation (where the tank and the target are linked by a translucent link), to signify them being taunted.
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  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    A damage absorption ability is a fairly useful tool in both PvP and PvE, and I would expect to see at least one or two tank classes in Ashes with it.

    However, that by itself doesn't make a tank viable in PvP. They need to offer more - as there is no situation where that damage absorption ability is more useful than if that tank were instead a healer.

    To me, every class needs to bring a little bit more than it's archetype would suggest in order to be a worthwhile class in PvP. This means that DPS need to be able to do a little bit more than just dealing damage and healers need to be able to do a little bit more than just healing allies.

    In terms of tanks though, they need to be able to do their primary task - which is attracting enemy attention - before they worry about any secondary aspect of the class such as damage absorption.

    As long as tanks are unable to force the enemy to attack them (either willingly or unwillingly), then there is no point bringing a tank along in PvP situations instead of a different class.
  • VentharienVentharien Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Damokles wrote: »
    The other thread was about tanks in PvP, this is more general i believe^^
    The post title is taunt and tank viability in pvp. Or maybe it was edited.
  • VentharienVentharien Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    @noaani Yeah i agree. Otherwise you get relegated to task oriented pvp scenarios (cap the flag, hold the point) almost exclusively. It would be cool if being a collidable object could make tanks more viable as battle field controllers, but that would work best with multiple tanks, and that would be like herding cats lol
  • PlateauPlateau Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Hard CC is one of the strongest things in PvP, and tanks usually have the most or easiest-to-use CC. Plus, ya'know, taking less damage than everyone else is pretty nice. So I'm not worried about the viability of tanks (in group PvP at least).
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  • DamoklesDamokles Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    We have all to remember one important thing here:
    I believe that Steven stated to not like hard-CC abilities, and that they will try to prevent widespread hard cc as much as possible, with relatively long CD or short durations.

    Skills that we know have hard CC currently:
    Soul Paralyse - Locks down user and targeted enemy (Cleric)
    Shield Might - Single target knockdown or stun (Tank)
    Ice Prison - Paralyze single target enemy (Mage)
    Shieldthrow - Stun first target hit at Rank 3 (Tank)
    Impale - Pull single target enemy to user at Rank 1, Stun enemy at rank 2 (Tank)
    Proximity Chain Stun - Mark targeted area and all enemies that leave it will be stunned. (Cleric)

    Skills with soft CC:
    Tentacles - AoE that roots targets (Mage)
    Trap - Roots single target (can be upgraded to stun) (Ranger)
    Snare - Root single target (Ranger)

    Tanks currently have the highest amount of hard CC abilities.
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  • Wandering MistWandering Mist Member, Founder, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Damokles wrote: »
    I think that the problem with current tanks is that threat is not managed in the right way most of the time.
    GW2 for example has "tanks" but they dont really FEEL like a tank if you know what i mean? You would think that the GUARDIAN or warrior class would be tanks, but no: the trickster (mesmer) class is the tank in the current meta.
    If they implemented a threat system, where dps classes are actually punished for overaggroing a boss or overpulling extra mobs, then i think more people would appreciate good tanks more. A system, where you actually contributed by giving the dps classes more breathing space for dealing their damage.

    That's because GW2 was never designed around a holy trinity class system. It wasn't until players asked for end-game content (i.e. raids) that the devs tried to ham-fist in healing and tanking into the mix. The results were......rubbish to say the least.

    You know it's funny, the best "taunt" skill I've seen for tanks didn't actually come from an mmorpg, but from an anime - Log Horizon. In Log Horizon there is a skill called "Anchor Howl" which is an aoe taunt. When used in PvP it doesn't stop enemy players from attacking other targets, but if they try to attack anyone other than the tank they will get hit by a huge counter-attack from the tank.
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  • DamoklesDamokles Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Damokles wrote: »
    I think that the problem with current tanks is that threat is not managed in the right way most of the time.
    GW2 for example has "tanks" but they dont really FEEL like a tank if you know what i mean? You would think that the GUARDIAN or warrior class would be tanks, but no: the trickster (mesmer) class is the tank in the current meta.
    If they implemented a threat system, where dps classes are actually punished for overaggroing a boss or overpulling extra mobs, then i think more people would appreciate good tanks more. A system, where you actually contributed by giving the dps classes more breathing space for dealing their damage.

    That's because GW2 was never designed around a holy trinity class system. It wasn't until players asked for end-game content (i.e. raids) that the devs tried to ham-fist in healing and tanking into the mix. The results were......rubbish to say the least.

    You know it's funny, the best "taunt" skill I've seen for tanks didn't actually come from an mmorpg, but from an anime - Log Horizon. In Log Horizon there is a skill called "Anchor Howl" which is an aoe taunt. When used in PvP it doesn't stop enemy players from attacking other targets, but if they try to attack anyone other than the tank they will get hit by a huge counter-attack from the tank.

    Oh my god, i totally forgot that xD
    Loved Log Horizon, and their classes.
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  • VentharienVentharien Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Anchor howl was awesome!
  • WizardTimWizardTim Member, Alpha One, Adventurer, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    High survivability makes tanks a potentially potent type on the battlefield. It's the trinity's over reliance on healers that really hurts tanks in this regard imo. Meaning the survival focused classes typically don't do much surviving on their own, ironically.

    Tanks should be more resistant to CC effects as well as actually focused on survival. If they were a big enough threat on a PvP battlefield, then enemies would focus fire on them first and then move on to the squishier targets. Which is how it ought to play out anyway.

    I think taunts should do what Anchor Howl does it Log Horizon though. You taunt, they ignore you, instead of them doing less damage to others, you should do massive damage to them. That puts more pressure on them targeting and attacking their taunter, or risk being obliterated.
  • Wandering MistWandering Mist Member, Founder, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Thinking about this a little more, a lot of it depends on what kind of pvp we're talking about. In a deathmatch where the objective is to just kill each other traditional tanks have little value. However, if the objective is to hold a capture point or run with a flag then tanks suddenly become godlike.
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  • VarkunVarkun Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    IMO the fact that you have weight and can not pass through another person will add somewhat to a tanks presence.
    That anchor howl sounds like a pretty cool ability.

    I do have some concerns as to the viability of tanks in pvp, really need to see how alpha 1 shapes up to get an idea of the direction of abilities and uses.
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  • BotBot Member
    zeyji wrote: »
    Having played many MMOs both PvE and PvP I have often found the issue of tanks being a bit less useful than Healers/DPS in PvP. One system which did a great job of making tanks useful in PvP was SWTOR. For everyone who didn't play it: Each tank has a guard which he can place (and switch) on a group member. If the guarded players stands within a certain range of the tank, 50% of the damage is redirected to the tank as well as some damage reduction. Also taunt does decrease the damage a target deals when hitting a player other than the tank while under the taunt effect.
    This does not mean that this system should be copied but it is to showcase that there are great ways to make tanks viable in PvP aside from Crowd Control and just absorbing a ton of damage. Because in most MMOs this alone will not make tanks a used specc in PvP. Do you guys know other great usages of taunt or other tank mechanics for PvP? I only played WoW, GW2, SWTOR and FF14 so there are surely more great options :)

    I think as a temporary skill that'd be good. Archeage does a really good job of tanks being useful in PvP. Out of the defense tree alone you could do a combo that would grant you a 20m shout skill that debuffed the enemy's combat stats while also forcing them to target you. The tree also had stuff like a skill that granted some cc immunity to an ally for a few seconds, a single target long range pull, and a temporary wall you could put up to create a choke point. Archeage in general I think did a great job at getting skills right to make every role feel useful in PvP.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    Damokles wrote: »
    Tanks currently have the highest amount of hard CC abilities.
    I would assume that by the time the game goes live, the support class will be the most effective CC class in the game.

    To me, the issue with tanks in PvP is that - unlike any other class - tanks roles are totally different in PvE vs PvP.

    To me, this is actually stupid.

    If a game can't find a way to make every class perform the same function in PvP as it does in PvE, then the game shouldn't implement PvP at all.

    Right now, in almost any game on the market, if you come across a tank, healer and DPS in PvP, the order you would attempt to kill them would be healer > DPS > tank. The tank takes the longest to kill, and in almost all games offers the smallest threat to you and your group - so why would you treat it as anything other than an annoyance to be cleared off after the actual fight...

    All that survivablity that tanks have, and all it does in almost all games on the market is delay them from rejoining their friends after the battle has been lost - a point in time where the other two are probably lamenting the fact that you rolled a tank rather than a second DPS character.

    In order to makes tanks worthwhile in PvP - make them a class that people actually want to take along - the game needs to make it so that players going up against that same trio would look at the tank as the first target they need to take down.

    If you a tank is not the first class that players want to take out, then the player playing the tank would have been better off with a different class, as anything they could be doing other than being the focus of the enemies damage output could be better done by another class.
  • BotBot Member
    noaani wrote: »
    Damokles wrote: »
    In order to makes tanks worthwhile in PvP - make them a class that people actually want to take along - the game needs to make it so that players going up against that same trio would look at the tank as the first target they need to take down.

    If you a tank is not the first class that players want to take out, then the player playing the tank would have been better off with a different class, as anything they could be doing other than being the focus of the enemies damage output could be better done by another class.


    This isn't true at all, a tank's role in PvP is surviving and disrupting. Tanks as a part of the environment that creates choke points by forcing the enemy to go around them or risk being cc'd. They're disruptors due to this as well as because they should be on the enemy's backline or protecting healers/dps from being attacked so they can survive longer. They do all of this while surviving so they can get off more rotations and maintain presence, especially in a situation where you need to keep an enemy off or away from something. Tanks become more and more useful to the point that they are essential for large scale PvP. Similar to how you probably wouldn't want a tank for killing a small group of mobs or mobs 1 by 1, but you'd definitely want a tank for something like a dungeon or large wave pve.
  • DamoklesDamokles Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited March 2020
    bot wrote: »
    noaani wrote: »
    Damokles wrote: »
    In order to makes tanks worthwhile in PvP - make them a class that people actually want to take along - the game needs to make it so that players going up against that same trio would look at the tank as the first target they need to take down.

    If you a tank is not the first class that players want to take out, then the player playing the tank would have been better off with a different class, as anything they could be doing other than being the focus of the enemies damage output could be better done by another class.


    This isn't true at all, a tank's role in PvP is surviving and disrupting. Tanks as a part of the environment that creates choke points by forcing the enemy to go around them or risk being cc'd. They're disruptors due to this as well as because they should be on the enemy's backline or protecting healers/dps from being attacked so they can survive longer. They do all of this while surviving so they can get off more rotations and maintain presence, especially in a situation where you need to keep an enemy off or away from something. Tanks become more and more useful to the point that they are essential for large scale PvP. Similar to how you probably wouldn't want a tank for killing a small group of mobs or mobs 1 by 1, but you'd definitely want a tank for something like a dungeon or large wave pve.

    Where did you get that quote it is not from this thread...
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  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    edited March 2020
    bot wrote: »
    Tanks become more and more useful to the point that they are essential for large scale PvP.
    They really aren't.

    They have marginal use in holding points for PvP scenarios that have such mechanics, but for actual open world PvP - where the idea is to kill the enemy rather than hold some makeshift flag for pretend points - they are completely pointless.

    Now, to be perfectly fair, very few games have PvP in the open world, and so players that haven't played such a game probably aren't aware of how useless tanks are when there is no artificial point you need to hold. Additionally, in open world PvP, players can far more readily come at you from any side, so the idea of a tank trying to protect DPS and healers by standing between them and the enemy doesn't hold up very well. Add to that the fact that in Ashes, respawn points will be somewhat random - meaning players that are killed and rejoin the fight literally can come from anywhere.

    When the point of a PvP exchange is simply to kill the other group of players - a character that can't do much damage, can't heal and can easily be walked around and ignored serves no purpose.

    Now, if you want to claim that tanks have marginal use in objective based, arena (and maybe siege) PvP, that's fine, you can have that.

    However, while I'll give you that, if you have tanks with you in open PvP, I'll have your caravan.
  • IshkaIshka Member, Alpha Two
    edited March 2020
    Since I am a lazy cockroach, i'll quote myself from a previous thread regarding the taunt in pvp, I think this :
    Ishka wrote: »
    Regarding the taunt in pvp, my position is to make it target changing in the 1st place. Not necessarily forcing to attack the tank who uses taunt. You will asks yourselves with such little effect what is the point ?

    Well, we all know that tanks in many MMOs do not have a single taunting ability, at least they got damaging abilities that generate "threat" in PvE. Why wouldn't they make some sort of mechanic around taunt & threat in pvp ? The threat could build up to a certain point then target switch and finally forcing the opponent to attack for a short duration. If we look at how the game will be, the regular taunt that switch target wouldn't have any uses against a player that builded his character with a lot of action combat abilities. That is why attack forcing a target becomes necessary.

    What I find also interesting in this "threat accumulation mechanics" is that it forces the tank to make a choice regarding a focus, since it's not always possible to focus the same target for a long duration in pvp, it would make him take risks and make sort of a gamble.

    Adding a bonus-penalty damage with the taunt seems interesting, but subjectively I kinda dislike it. While it seems to give a real reason to focus the tank instead of squishies target. If I played a dps and would get my damages reduced every time because some apes in huge armor shouted at me, it would make me a lot worse than being chain CC.

    The execution to a taunt is a lot more simple and there would be a lot less possibilities to counter such effects compared to CC. If we look at how a dps will build its character, it's obvious that he will have a larger attack. It would simply reduce too much of its damages compared to other non-based dmg classes, at least in a % reduction, a flat -X could do the trick. A group of 2 or 3 tank taunts focusing on someone to “permanently” reduce its damages is too cancerous.

    So the idea of target changing is more flexible and useful for the tank in its use and is less painful for the opponent (at least in case of tab-targeting), if they give us tools to mark a target with a number and a shortcut the select the marked target, here you you have a "counterplay", and the tank can still make some decent plays forcing the uses of a huge CD on himself.

    Then @Wandering Mist responded with this :
    @Ishka having threat generation in PvP is an interesting idea that I don't think has really been done before. Of course it couldn't work exactly how it does in PvE but you could instead have a special threat meter that builds as a tank attacks an enemy (each enemy would have a separate bar). Once the bar is full the tank can use his taunt to temporarily force the enemy player to attack the tank.

    The other way you could do it is similar to how taunts appear in the anime "Log Horizon". A player affected by the spell "Anchor Howl" isn't directly forced to attack the tank but if they attack anyone other than the tank they take extra damage:

    https://log-horizon.fandom.com/wiki/Anchor_Howl

    I am for the anchor howl from log horizon, this ability is suitable for a tank in pvp.

    Regarding a TANK usefulness in pvp, Aion did a wonderful job at making the Templar a strong class in in the hand of a good user. It is resilient with his CC resistances, it got a decent amount of self-sustainability and CC, its use of the shield and grab is what contributed a lot to its efficiency and identity in pvp. It also have a not so bad dps and huge burst capabilities, paired with strong buffs, with very long CDs which provide a huge powerspike. Making this strength also a weakness, the class is a lot less threatening after you burn up your ressources. The class does not become weak, but is quite easy to bully after. It can also protect its teammates in many ways, with some buffs/shield, single target heal, the skill bodyguard that shields a group member for 100 % damage taken. The user take X%* of it's damage within 25m range. (*scale with the skill level).
    The downside is that if you play well against templar, all the classes have enough tools to kite it to the moon. So it requires a very good follow and often an extended weapon.

    Well, there is a lot more to say, but basically they made it in a way that indeed you get killed in last because of the tankiness, but you have tools to efficiently protect your teammates paired with a decent amount dps/CC and huge burst, on the downside you can get kited easily and to be efficient you need a lot more game knowledge & mastery than other classes. Its efficiency is also heavily dependent on the gears.

    The way I would see a well made TANK class, is something more or less close to these strengths and weaknesses. So that you play around those strengths and compensate for the weaknesses with an adapted gameplay.
  • ataulfosataulfos Member
    edited March 2020
    i use to play AA and there is someting called a blender ball that is literaly a zerg of heavy dps classes with high movility, when tanks fail and are usless in open pvp that is what happen, everyone rolling damage and just who hit harder wins, in AoC we will not have one shoot in pvp for what the team have said so in that manner i would like to see tanks like the dude that grab another dude for the bully pounch him in the stomach like in many mobies bc if u cant one shoot and dont have a lot of cc the mobility would make everyone harder to kill in open world pvp, what im trying to say is that tanks will have a roll in the battle field with many playstyles and i hope is near what the team is trying to sell that is controlling the field, enemies and allys, with that being said im prety sure tanks will not be like tanks in the many games we have seen that have fail in this points by just hard cc and high damage reduction
  • RavudhaRavudha Member
    edited March 2020
    ataulfos wrote: »
    with that being said im prety sure tanks will not be like tanks in the many games we have seen that have fail in this points by just hard cc and high damage reduction

    This is one thing that worries me. The skills we've seen so far for tank, mage, ranger, cleric are a pretty standard MMO lineup, so I'm kind of expecting the same PvP meta behaviour as previous MMOs - but that's excluding augments, which could change everything.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    Ravudha wrote: »
    ataulfos wrote: »
    with that being said im prety sure tanks will not be like tanks in the many games we have seen that have fail in this points by just hard cc and high damage reduction

    This is one thing that worries me. The skills we've seen so far for tank, mage, ranger, cleric are a pretty standard MMO lineup, so I'm kind of expecting the same PvP meta behaviour as previous MMOs - but that's excluding augments, which could change everything.

    Yeah, but as you say, the skills we have seen are pre-augments.

    The game would really be shit if the skills listed were ss we are going to use them in game, but they are the skills you have before you modify them in to the skills you'll use.
  • TamaelTamael Member, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited March 2020
    Damokles wrote: »
    Ventharien wrote: »
    There was actually another tank thread pretty recently where this came up. I like the the idea of damage reduction, but some people thought other after effects of the taunt might work better.

    The other thread was about tanks in PvP, this is more general i believe^^
    But yeah i would also like the taunt to be applicable in PvP.
    If you know Karma from LoL, then something like her bind animation (where the tank and the target are linked by a translucent link), to signify them being taunted.

    But then the Taunt must function on a timer rather than threat. Or have it function in pvp differently than pve.
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  • DamoklesDamokles Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Tamael wrote: »
    Damokles wrote: »
    Ventharien wrote: »
    There was actually another tank thread pretty recently where this came up. I like the the idea of damage reduction, but some people thought other after effects of the taunt might work better.

    The other thread was about tanks in PvP, this is more general i believe^^
    But yeah i would also like the taunt to be applicable in PvP.
    If you know Karma from LoL, then something like her bind animation (where the tank and the target are linked by a translucent link), to signify them being taunted.

    But then the Taunt must function on a timer rather than threat. Or have it function in pvp differently than pve.

    Why? A standard taunt FORCES the target to attack them for a specific duration right? Just make it so that the taunt decreases the damage dealt to targets other then the caster are reduced by x amount for the same length as the taunt duration...
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  • VentharienVentharien Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited March 2020
    noaani wrote: »
    They really aren't.

    They have marginal use in holding points for PvP scenarios that have such mechanics, but for actual open world PvP - where the idea is to kill the enemy rather than hold some makeshift flag for pretend points - they are completely pointless.


    Completely agree with this. Outside of holding zones in pvp, which is really just buying time for dps to get there since you can't do anything, tanks have almost no use in pvp in recent games. Even in large scale open world pvp, zergs of dps are the normal end result. There just isn't a reason to keep someone whose main trait is not dying, when you could have some else who just kill the enemy problem solved. I'm hoping the solid collision system will give them some new uses, especially in sieges, where there should be more possible bottlenecks.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Does Taunt matter in PvP when you can Impale people?
  • VentharienVentharien Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Dygz wrote: »
    Does Taunt matter in PvP when you can Impale people?

    As in a root effect?
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