I presume that at start the idea was develope only a MMORPG game but at some point of development IS made a change to their design and development strategy. As we know a development of MMORPG is taking several years (in general) and I guess IS studios wanted to implement another game in middle of the main project to fund their operations. a BR game concept offered here a good opportunity because implementation is relatively easy (at least when compared to MMO development), parts thereof can be used for the MMORPG and BR games are a popular genre at the moment. So why not?
I guess this kind of strategy helps the IS in long run and they get more incomes during the development process from the another game. However, the downside is that the schedule will stretch and the release of the main project is pushed further. This kind of behaviour also caused a different kind of welcome reactions with the community, followers, gaming industry and especially with backers and funders. I hope the risk management was taken account when this development change was accepted and the evaluation of the impact was done properly. We do not have the data to analyze how smart move this was from IS behalf. Their reputation got a dimple for sure but how much damage this really caused is hard to predict, perhaps time will tell.
I have personally pondered, was the Apoc really needed at first place? Did IS really need the incomes to fund the main project? If the answer is yes then I would understand better this solution even it would still disapoint me at least a little bit. Now when the reason of Apoc existance is explained as a pure testing ground, it makes me actually quite irritated. This argument is absurd and just belittles people's intelligence.
Do you need a ride to the Underworld?
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AtamaMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Yes we’ve had this discussion before. APOC is a dumb excuse for a cash grab, banking on the Fortnite fad with the thin explanation that it’s for testing. It’s like a teenager saying that they had to take the car out to a dirt lot to do doughnuts to practice for a driving test.
Oh well this seams to be a some kind of trend to jump on a side project during the MMO development, and I am now referring here to City State Games who decided after about 6 years of development of Camelot Unchained deliver "a PvE BR tower defending game" called Ragnarok - Colossal.
Furthermore, if we think of the Chronicles of Elyria Scam and those never ending developments like Crowfall and Star Citizen, these examples makes me question the whole MMORPG development genre, especially all crowdfunding and kickstarting companies. Is it too much to ask that companies do what they have actually promised?
Oh well this seams to be a some kind of trend to jump on a side project during the MMO development, and I am now referring here to City State Games who decided after about 6 years of development of Camelot Unchained deliver "a PvE BR tower defending game" called Ragnarok - Colossal.
Furthermore, if we think of the Chronicles of Elyria Scam and those never ending developments like Crowfall and Star Citizen, these examples makes me question the whole MMORPG development genre, especially all crowdfunding and kickstarting companies. Is it too much to ask that companies do what they have actually promised?
The thing about Ragnarok is, that the developers actually got paid by investors to make that thing. No excuse though to take resources away from CU.
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Undead CanuckMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited April 2020
And how many of those games were fully funded before development? By a person who wants an MMORPG enough to start a company to create it?
Did anyone actually read the notes from @Steven Sharif saying that they need to test certain systems and so used a quick format arena?
And, yes, Apocalypse is coming back. With Castle Siege.
Oh well this seams to be a some kind of trend to jump on a side project during the MMO development, and I am now referring here to City State Games who decided after about 6 years of development of Camelot Unchained deliver "a PvE BR tower defending game" called Ragnarok - Colossal.
Furthermore, if we think of the Chronicles of Elyria Scam and those never ending developments like Crowfall and Star Citizen, these examples makes me question the whole MMORPG development genre, especially all crowdfunding and kickstarting companies. Is it too much to ask that companies do what they have actually promised?
If you look at all those games you mentioned, wouldn't you get a clue that there might something going on with MMO development. I'd understand the criticism if it was the norm for MMOs to be cranked out by indies or even large companies but it isn't.
Since it's not the norm, isn't it reasonable to assume there are some challenges that make it so it's not as easy?
Yes we’ve had this discussion before. APOC is a dumb excuse for a cash grab, banking on the Fortnite fad with the thin explanation that it’s for testing. It’s like a teenager saying that they had to take the car out to a dirt lot to do doughnuts to practice for a driving test.
Oh well this seams to be a some kind of trend to jump on a side project during the MMO development, and I am now referring here to City State Games who decided after about 6 years of development of Camelot Unchained deliver "a PvE BR tower defending game" called Ragnarok - Colossal.
Furthermore, if we think of the Chronicles of Elyria Scam and those never ending developments like Crowfall and Star Citizen, these examples makes me question the whole MMORPG development genre, especially all crowdfunding and kickstarting companies. Is it too much to ask that companies do what they have actually promised?
If you look at all those games you mentioned, wouldn't you get a clue that there might something going on with MMO development. I'd understand the criticism if it was the norm for MMOs to be cranked out by indies or even large companies but it isn't.
Since it's not the norm, isn't it reasonable to assume there are some challenges that make it so it's not as easy?
Yes we’ve had this discussion before. APOC is a dumb excuse for a cash grab, banking on the Fortnite fad with the thin explanation that it’s for testing. It’s like a teenager saying that they had to take the car out to a dirt lot to do doughnuts to practice for a driving test.
Is the earth also flat?
So you are saying that because its about indie studios that justify them to bullshit people?
Do you need a ride to the Underworld?
0
Options
mcstackersonMember, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Oh well this seams to be a some kind of trend to jump on a side project during the MMO development, and I am now referring here to City State Games who decided after about 6 years of development of Camelot Unchained deliver "a PvE BR tower defending game" called Ragnarok - Colossal.
Furthermore, if we think of the Chronicles of Elyria Scam and those never ending developments like Crowfall and Star Citizen, these examples makes me question the whole MMORPG development genre, especially all crowdfunding and kickstarting companies. Is it too much to ask that companies do what they have actually promised?
If you look at all those games you mentioned, wouldn't you get a clue that there might something going on with MMO development. I'd understand the criticism if it was the norm for MMOs to be cranked out by indies or even large companies but it isn't.
Since it's not the norm, isn't it reasonable to assume there are some challenges that make it so it's not as easy?
Yes we’ve had this discussion before. APOC is a dumb excuse for a cash grab, banking on the Fortnite fad with the thin explanation that it’s for testing. It’s like a teenager saying that they had to take the car out to a dirt lot to do doughnuts to practice for a driving test.
Is the earth also flat?
So you are saying that because its about indie studios that justify them to bullshit people?
No, i'm saying the opposite.
If everyone is having problems putting out MMOs, then they probably aren't bullshitting people.
If you were a professor giving a test, everyone fails, and you have people saying it was too hard. Wouldn't you think they might have an argument because everyone failed. On the other side, if only some failed and make the same claim, you would suspicious of how much those people studied as there were people who were able to pass.
Oh well this seams to be a some kind of trend to jump on a side project during the MMO development, and I am now referring here to City State Games who decided after about 6 years of development of Camelot Unchained deliver "a PvE BR tower defending game" called Ragnarok - Colossal.
Furthermore, if we think of the Chronicles of Elyria Scam and those never ending developments like Crowfall and Star Citizen, these examples makes me question the whole MMORPG development genre, especially all crowdfunding and kickstarting companies. Is it too much to ask that companies do what they have actually promised?
If you look at all those games you mentioned, wouldn't you get a clue that there might something going on with MMO development. I'd understand the criticism if it was the norm for MMOs to be cranked out by indies or even large companies but it isn't.
Since it's not the norm, isn't it reasonable to assume there are some challenges that make it so it's not as easy?
Yes we’ve had this discussion before. APOC is a dumb excuse for a cash grab, banking on the Fortnite fad with the thin explanation that it’s for testing. It’s like a teenager saying that they had to take the car out to a dirt lot to do doughnuts to practice for a driving test.
Is the earth also flat?
So you are saying that because its about indie studios that justify them to bullshit people?
No, i'm saying the opposite.
If everyone is having problems putting out MMOs, then they probably aren't bullshitting people.
Well this is something.. at least interesting. If everyone does that then it does not count as bullshitting. What is this logic? If someone promises to investors deliever a MMORPG game inside 4 years but manages to do it within 7 years or delivers a totally different game what they promised, if that is not bullshitting then what is?
Oh well this seams to be a some kind of trend to jump on a side project during the MMO development, and I am now referring here to City State Games who decided after about 6 years of development of Camelot Unchained deliver "a PvE BR tower defending game" called Ragnarok - Colossal.
Furthermore, if we think of the Chronicles of Elyria Scam and those never ending developments like Crowfall and Star Citizen, these examples makes me question the whole MMORPG development genre, especially all crowdfunding and kickstarting companies. Is it too much to ask that companies do what they have actually promised?
If you look at all those games you mentioned, wouldn't you get a clue that there might something going on with MMO development. I'd understand the criticism if it was the norm for MMOs to be cranked out by indies or even large companies but it isn't.
Since it's not the norm, isn't it reasonable to assume there are some challenges that make it so it's not as easy?
Yes we’ve had this discussion before. APOC is a dumb excuse for a cash grab, banking on the Fortnite fad with the thin explanation that it’s for testing. It’s like a teenager saying that they had to take the car out to a dirt lot to do doughnuts to practice for a driving test.
Is the earth also flat?
So you are saying that because its about indie studios that justify them to bullshit people?
No, i'm saying the opposite.
If everyone is having problems putting out MMOs, then they probably aren't bullshitting people.
Well this is something.. at least interesting. If everyone does that then it does not count as bullshitting. What is this logic? If someone promises to investors deliever a MMORPG game inside 4 years but manages to do it within 7 years or delivers a totally different game what they promised, if that is not bullshitting then what is?
A change.
Sometimes, things don't go according to the plan, and changes are made. This is a normal part of life.
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mcstackersonMember, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Oh well this seams to be a some kind of trend to jump on a side project during the MMO development, and I am now referring here to City State Games who decided after about 6 years of development of Camelot Unchained deliver "a PvE BR tower defending game" called Ragnarok - Colossal.
Furthermore, if we think of the Chronicles of Elyria Scam and those never ending developments like Crowfall and Star Citizen, these examples makes me question the whole MMORPG development genre, especially all crowdfunding and kickstarting companies. Is it too much to ask that companies do what they have actually promised?
If you look at all those games you mentioned, wouldn't you get a clue that there might something going on with MMO development. I'd understand the criticism if it was the norm for MMOs to be cranked out by indies or even large companies but it isn't.
Since it's not the norm, isn't it reasonable to assume there are some challenges that make it so it's not as easy?
Yes we’ve had this discussion before. APOC is a dumb excuse for a cash grab, banking on the Fortnite fad with the thin explanation that it’s for testing. It’s like a teenager saying that they had to take the car out to a dirt lot to do doughnuts to practice for a driving test.
Is the earth also flat?
So you are saying that because its about indie studios that justify them to bullshit people?
No, i'm saying the opposite.
If everyone is having problems putting out MMOs, then they probably aren't bullshitting people.
Well this is something.. at least interesting. If everyone does that then it does not count as bullshitting. What is this logic? If someone promises to investors deliever a MMORPG game inside 4 years but manages to do it within 7 years or delivers a totally different game what they promised, if that is not bullshitting then what is?
My argument is more if everyone is doing it, is everyone really bullshitting or is there a reason? Not saying there aren't people who could be bullshitting, just saying there are probably those who are not. People can just be wrong.
It depends on why the game wasn't able to be delivered in the estimated time frame. It's software development and delays are common, especially when we are talking about larger projects. The more things that go into a project, the more things that can suffer delays. There is a reason why big studios don't talk about their projects until they are closer to release.
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AtamaMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Yes we’ve had this discussion before. APOC is a dumb excuse for a cash grab, banking on the Fortnite fad with the thin explanation that it’s for testing. It’s like a teenager saying that they had to take the car out to a dirt lot to do doughnuts to practice for a driving test.
Is the earth also flat?
There’s overwhelming evidence it’s not.
If you equate this to being a flat-earther, wow you really are one gullible sucker.
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mcstackersonMember, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Yes we’ve had this discussion before. APOC is a dumb excuse for a cash grab, banking on the Fortnite fad with the thin explanation that it’s for testing. It’s like a teenager saying that they had to take the car out to a dirt lot to do doughnuts to practice for a driving test.
Is the earth also flat?
There’s overwhelming evidence it’s not.
If you equate this to being a flat-earther, wow you really are one gullible sucker.
I was more going for your accusation of a cash grab and your reasoning behind it.
Not only do i find this a lazy interpretation the games monetization but there is no acknowledgement of the games original purpose which, to me, shows a lack of understanding of game development and a desire to remain ignorant.
I equate this to flat earthers desire to deny the evidence of our planet's shape.
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AtamaMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Yes we’ve had this discussion before. APOC is a dumb excuse for a cash grab, banking on the Fortnite fad with the thin explanation that it’s for testing. It’s like a teenager saying that they had to take the car out to a dirt lot to do doughnuts to practice for a driving test.
Is the earth also flat?
There’s overwhelming evidence it’s not.
If you equate this to being a flat-earther, wow you really are one gullible sucker.
I was more going for your accusation of a cash grab and your reasoning behind it.
Not only do i find this a lazy interpretation the games monetization but there is no acknowledgement of the games original purpose which, to me, shows a lack of understanding of game development and a desire to remain ignorant.
I equate this to flat earthers desire to deny the evidence of our planet's shape.
And I don’t feel like going over this crap for the 100th time. Let’s just say I’ve been on these boards forever and know what I’m talking about and leave it at that. I have no interest in a debate, you can continue to eat everything they hand-feed you, doesn’t bother me a bit.
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mcstackersonMember, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Yes we’ve had this discussion before. APOC is a dumb excuse for a cash grab, banking on the Fortnite fad with the thin explanation that it’s for testing. It’s like a teenager saying that they had to take the car out to a dirt lot to do doughnuts to practice for a driving test.
Is the earth also flat?
There’s overwhelming evidence it’s not.
If you equate this to being a flat-earther, wow you really are one gullible sucker.
I was more going for your accusation of a cash grab and your reasoning behind it.
Not only do i find this a lazy interpretation the games monetization but there is no acknowledgement of the games original purpose which, to me, shows a lack of understanding of game development and a desire to remain ignorant.
I equate this to flat earthers desire to deny the evidence of our planet's shape.
And I don’t feel like going over this crap for the 100th time. Let’s just say I’ve been on these boards forever and know what I’m talking about and leave it at that. I have no interest in a debate, you can continue to eat everything they hand-feed you, doesn’t bother me a bit.
I have also been here a while and have done some debating on this topic myself. I'm sorry i missed your arguments in other threads. If you have done this so many times, maybe you can go copy/paste your argument from another thread so I can become informed.
If you are going to take the time to post on forums but run when your post is challenged, it sounds like you are just as close minded as someone who blindly listens to everything a developer tells them. By doing that, you make me think you aren't open to getting new information, which means your opinions can't be that informed. Doesn't mean you can't be right but does mean it's probably a lazy opinion.
Back on topic, I really hope that Apocalypse comes back. I cannot wait for Castle Siege and Horde Mode.
I do wonder if they will even host horde mode. I get testing Castle Siege but horde mode is just mobs.
It will still need to be tested since it will be a feature in the MMO.
Thething is, that they could just as well implement the castle defense mode in the Alpha later on.
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Undead CanuckMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
The other thing they are testing in the Horde Mode is the monster token system. Make sure that they work correctly and consistently. And I vaguely remember hearing that there will be monsters that will take multiple people to control.
But I might have misheard. so don't lynch me please.
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LalliMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
The other thing they are testing in the Horde Mode is the monster token system. Make sure that they work correctly and consistently. And I vaguely remember hearing that there will be monsters that will take multiple people to control.
But I might have misheard. so don't lynch me please.
The other thing they are testing in the Horde Mode is the monster token system. Make sure that they work correctly and consistently. And I vaguely remember hearing that there will be monsters that will take multiple people to control.
But I might have misheard. so don't lynch me please.
Oh I forgot about the monster coins.
The dead do not squabble as this land’s rulers do. The dead have no desires, petty jealousies or ambitions. A world of the dead is a world at peace
I was totally excited to play Apocalypse to test for free, but it took place Sept. 2019. RIP (I think it should state this on the main page that registering for it in this Sept. is pointless) - And then I found the old steam reviews. Oof. I'm sure a lot has changed since then, and wish another free event would come along. Unfortunately steam only has the up/down vote system so even the in-depth responses to pros and cons made it seem like the game was going to be bad or that the BR was the game itself. I can understand why the company would not want to deal with that any time soon again.
Thething is, that they could just as well implement the castle defense mode in the Alpha later on.
This is true. It can be done. But it's two different kinds of testing.
In the MMO Castles have a bunch of systems besides the siege itself. People will likely need to go through the hoops that the castle system requires to get to the siege part. Meaning that you'd get a more complete test of all of the systems in synergy with one another and how well that works. Instead of focusing on the battle itself.
While in APOC people can just queue to the siege bypassing all the requirements, and as soon as the siege is over, queue again. Meaning that there would be sieges "machine gun" style and not having to wait days or even weeks between sieges.
So it comes down to what they want to test.
I guess (yes, me. What do I know right?) what they want to test when they say sieges is the mechanics within the siege itself. How to make the battle fun. How long it is, how long the cast is, how to interrupt the cast, how many people can you get in there, are they zerging the boss? Is it even possible to coordinate 250 people? Are the respawn points far enough? Are they too far? Are the siege engines positionings doing something? Do we need more siege weapons? is nobody using this siege weapon? why aren't they using it? Do we have too many? Oh look they are skipping this room. Is the time too short? Is this part of the castle unsiegable?
Basically I think they want to completely focus on everything within the battle itself to know how to make the act of taking the castle as fun as possible. If this is the case. Doing more of them, quicker is better to gather more data faster.
This being the hardest part to get right. i believe they probably should start with it. And once they have the battle down. They put it together with the other systems inside an MMO alpha and test the synergies of simpler systems and go on from there knowing that people will actually want to play the sieges because they are fun and not only because it's a chore you need to do to get the cool rewards.
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unknownsystemerrorMember, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited September 2020
Since this seems to have been raised from the dead, let's put it back to rest.
Comments
I guess this kind of strategy helps the IS in long run and they get more incomes during the development process from the another game. However, the downside is that the schedule will stretch and the release of the main project is pushed further. This kind of behaviour also caused a different kind of welcome reactions with the community, followers, gaming industry and especially with backers and funders. I hope the risk management was taken account when this development change was accepted and the evaluation of the impact was done properly. We do not have the data to analyze how smart move this was from IS behalf. Their reputation got a dimple for sure but how much damage this really caused is hard to predict, perhaps time will tell.
I have personally pondered, was the Apoc really needed at first place? Did IS really need the incomes to fund the main project? If the answer is yes then I would understand better this solution even it would still disapoint me at least a little bit. Now when the reason of Apoc existance is explained as a pure testing ground, it makes me actually quite irritated. This argument is absurd and just belittles people's intelligence.
Furthermore, if we think of the Chronicles of Elyria Scam and those never ending developments like Crowfall and Star Citizen, these examples makes me question the whole MMORPG development genre, especially all crowdfunding and kickstarting companies. Is it too much to ask that companies do what they have actually promised?
The thing about Ragnarok is, that the developers actually got paid by investors to make that thing. No excuse though to take resources away from CU.
Did anyone actually read the notes from @Steven Sharif saying that they need to test certain systems and so used a quick format arena?
And, yes, Apocalypse is coming back. With Castle Siege.
None and your point is?
If you look at all those games you mentioned, wouldn't you get a clue that there might something going on with MMO development. I'd understand the criticism if it was the norm for MMOs to be cranked out by indies or even large companies but it isn't.
Since it's not the norm, isn't it reasonable to assume there are some challenges that make it so it's not as easy?
Is the earth also flat?
So you are saying that because its about indie studios that justify them to bullshit people?
No, i'm saying the opposite.
If everyone is having problems putting out MMOs, then they probably aren't bullshitting people.
If you were a professor giving a test, everyone fails, and you have people saying it was too hard. Wouldn't you think they might have an argument because everyone failed. On the other side, if only some failed and make the same claim, you would suspicious of how much those people studied as there were people who were able to pass.
Well this is something.. at least interesting. If everyone does that then it does not count as bullshitting. What is this logic? If someone promises to investors deliever a MMORPG game inside 4 years but manages to do it within 7 years or delivers a totally different game what they promised, if that is not bullshitting then what is?
A change.
Sometimes, things don't go according to the plan, and changes are made. This is a normal part of life.
My argument is more if everyone is doing it, is everyone really bullshitting or is there a reason? Not saying there aren't people who could be bullshitting, just saying there are probably those who are not. People can just be wrong.
It depends on why the game wasn't able to be delivered in the estimated time frame. It's software development and delays are common, especially when we are talking about larger projects. The more things that go into a project, the more things that can suffer delays. There is a reason why big studios don't talk about their projects until they are closer to release.
If you equate this to being a flat-earther, wow you really are one gullible sucker.
I was more going for your accusation of a cash grab and your reasoning behind it.
Not only do i find this a lazy interpretation the games monetization but there is no acknowledgement of the games original purpose which, to me, shows a lack of understanding of game development and a desire to remain ignorant.
I equate this to flat earthers desire to deny the evidence of our planet's shape.
I have also been here a while and have done some debating on this topic myself. I'm sorry i missed your arguments in other threads. If you have done this so many times, maybe you can go copy/paste your argument from another thread so I can become informed.
If you are going to take the time to post on forums but run when your post is challenged, it sounds like you are just as close minded as someone who blindly listens to everything a developer tells them. By doing that, you make me think you aren't open to getting new information, which means your opinions can't be that informed. Doesn't mean you can't be right but does mean it's probably a lazy opinion.
What about Copernicus and KoA:R?
I do wonder if they will even host horde mode. I get testing Castle Siege but horde mode is just mobs.
It will still need to be tested since it will be a feature in the MMO.
Thething is, that they could just as well implement the castle defense mode in the Alpha later on.
But I might have misheard. so don't lynch me please.
Oh I forgot about the monster coins.
This is true. It can be done. But it's two different kinds of testing.
In the MMO Castles have a bunch of systems besides the siege itself. People will likely need to go through the hoops that the castle system requires to get to the siege part. Meaning that you'd get a more complete test of all of the systems in synergy with one another and how well that works. Instead of focusing on the battle itself.
While in APOC people can just queue to the siege bypassing all the requirements, and as soon as the siege is over, queue again. Meaning that there would be sieges "machine gun" style and not having to wait days or even weeks between sieges.
So it comes down to what they want to test.
I guess (yes, me. What do I know right?) what they want to test when they say sieges is the mechanics within the siege itself. How to make the battle fun. How long it is, how long the cast is, how to interrupt the cast, how many people can you get in there, are they zerging the boss? Is it even possible to coordinate 250 people? Are the respawn points far enough? Are they too far? Are the siege engines positionings doing something? Do we need more siege weapons? is nobody using this siege weapon? why aren't they using it? Do we have too many? Oh look they are skipping this room. Is the time too short? Is this part of the castle unsiegable?
Basically I think they want to completely focus on everything within the battle itself to know how to make the act of taking the castle as fun as possible. If this is the case. Doing more of them, quicker is better to gather more data faster.
This being the hardest part to get right. i believe they probably should start with it. And once they have the battle down. They put it together with the other systems inside an MMO alpha and test the synergies of simpler systems and go on from there knowing that people will actually want to play the sieges because they are fun and not only because it's a chore you need to do to get the cool rewards.