Pre-purchase question: Addons

halbarzhalbarz Member
edited April 28 in General Discussion
bit of a strange question:

But does this still stand today? [url=" https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Template:Addons "] https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Template:Addons [/url]

I personally dislike addons as they often ruin the fun in games especially DPS meters.
Me and my girlfriend would like to buy the game (with the nice extra's :smiley: ) but are concerned to end up having a bad experience again in an MMO because of the community being focused on addons such as a DPS meter and etc.

For us the fun in a MMO is the exploring (not only the area's but your class, the combo's and etc) and create builds that are unique but fun for us to play and work well in a group. Being a sandbox game we hope this no-addon stance remains :smiley:

Edit: since there will be many class combo's we feel like this could make it so that certain combo's would be seen as useless and with that not wanted in groups.

Thank you in advance for your response.
Best regards,
Halbarz
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Comments

  • CaerylCaeryl Member
    No-addon policies work if the base UI is flexible enough and has enough detail to stand alone.

    However, players don’t need addons to know when someone is underperforming by a significant margin. There should be some kind of tools to determine who needs guidance within a group.
  • Undead CanuckUndead Canuck Member, Braver of Worlds
    Well, you are in luck. They have said that he doesn't want DPS meters as it leads to issues. Also, there is no purchase cost for this game. Only a subscription (assumption of $15 per month) when it launches.
  • LalliLalli Member, Braver of Worlds
    I agree. I dislike addons for the most part.
  • unknownsystemerrorunknownsystemerror Member, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty
    The stated plan is to have a very flexible UI that can be moved, sized, and all the bells and whistles. If there is something missing that is needed, they have said that they will add it themselves after looking at the data, rather than catering to the loudest minority that likes to "REEEE mah meters!" or those that want to healbot from the back.
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  • I personally like addons, but dont need them.
    I would also preferr a build in damage meter for raid leaders though.
    As long as a game has a flexible ui design, then most people wont even need addons.
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  • Yeah, not a fan of add ons either. I've seen so many videos where it's nothing but a crowded screen, and I'm going dang where is their character at....and all sense of immersion is lost.
  • LalliLalli Member, Braver of Worlds
    I feel like if someone uses addons that give an advantage (even knowledge) then if you don't use them your "behind".
  • I think players on average are just too laser focused to use add ons, dps meters in particular, correctly. Too many times have i been part of a raid in multiple games where the leader or whoever is watching the dps calls people out for not meeting what they see as acceptable in terms of dps numbers, and as the tank i spoke up because they managed to get lower numbers because they were actually doing mechanics, while other dps were sitting around maxing dps and putting a big strain on healer resources.
  • Ventharien wrote: »
    I think players on average are just too laser focused to use add ons, dps meters in particular, correctly. Too many times have i been part of a raid in multiple games where the leader or whoever is watching the dps calls people out for not meeting what they see as acceptable in terms of dps numbers, and as the tank i spoke up because they managed to get lower numbers because they were actually doing mechanics, while other dps were sitting around maxing dps and putting a big strain on healer resources.

    The problem is that there are people, like you said... but then there are also people who dont do mechanics and dont do dps. You can only find them out if you have a dps/damage done meter.
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  • It's the find them out that's the problem. Before we had things like damage meters and even aggro meters, if something was going wrong, you took a step back and tried to figure out what was going on. Sometimes people started explaining parts of the encounter, and maybe that dps that was unsure of what was going on, and was either new to the group, or in a pug would hear and now get it. If not you actually watched the field as the Raid Lead. Nowadays it allows too many to just go oh look, i'm top dps, nothing i could do (standing in fire, over dpsing, pulling incorrect mobs, etc.) can be wrong. And oh, that guys low dps, kick him. It's honestly been poison to the community in nearly every game i've seen impliment them.
  • DamoklesDamokles Member
    edited April 29
    @Ventharien
    Yes, but that also lead to 40-man raids where 20 people had to carry the other 20.
    I played WoW since end of classic, raided since end of BC. Thats why i say that only raid leads get a dps function. A raid lead needs to know that stuff, so that he can sort it out with those people. (Depending on where the problem lies, do they not understand the mechanics, or is it their gear?)

    The thing is that people have to trust each other to do the right thing. I had people that said straight out that they had shitty gear. We still took them to the easy bosses and they left on their own when we got to the harder ones.
    But the problem is that most people dont think that way. People are selfish. They dont say that they do minimal damage and want to get carried. Maybe they dont even realize it because they dont have a dps meter to check it.

    Pugs should not be a valid reason why dps meters should not be a thing, because people could be thrown out because they didnt pull their own damn weight.
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  • NoaaniNoaani Member
    edited April 30
    Ventharien wrote: »
    It's honestly been poison to the community in nearly every game i've seen impliment them.
    It seems to me like your argument here is"this is a tool that is obviously useful, but since some people use it wrong, it shouldn't exist".

    I'm happy for Intrepid to not allow addons. However, I know the end game raiding community (assuming the game has such a community) will have one. This can be seen in GW2 - they didn't have one or make allowences for one, but the community built one anyway. I personally know of the existence of two that are ready to be adapted to Ashes already.

    To me, the question is not "should Ashes have a combat tracker or not", but rather "should Intrepid be in control of the combat tracker in Ashes or not".

    IMO, the best answer - the one that should please the most people - is actually for Intrepid to implement two combat trackers in to the game.

    The first is a training dummy that could be a part of a military node. It allows people to select specific parameters on a training dummy that the player (or group) can then attack. This gives individual players the opportunity to test out a new build in a variety of situations, or to test out class combos and such, but doesn't allow for in combat tracking - it only tracks attacks on the dummy. (edit to add: while this could be located in a military node, it should be available - for a fee - to anyone)

    The second is added in to the game as a guild perk. It should be an option that guilds can take, but one where only guilds that are raiding PvE content would take it. There should be a better/more useful option for PvP, crafting, and group or solo PvE so that guilds that spend more time doing any other activity would rather take something different.

    On top of that, this tracker that members of the guild can use (or even only people of X rank or higher in the guild) only tracks combat of guild members that are present in a raid setting. This means every player in the game effectively opts in to having their combat tracked by their guild by joining a guild with this option selected.

    With all of this, you will still get the occasional idiot in a pickup group that claims he knows that X class is crap and you can't join his group if you are that class. To that, I have two responses. The first is that you just found a player that you don't want running any group you are in, and you found that out before investing time in getting to the hard part of a dungeon where that player would obviously have issues.

    The second is that players like this would exclude classes anyway - not due to merit, but because it makes them feel good. They will exclude people for the sake of excluding people, tracker or no. If there is an in game tracker though, at least you have the means to see if their claims are accurate or not.
  • Noaani wrote: »
    It seems to me like your argument here is"this is a tool that is obviously useful, but since some people use it wrong, it shouldn't exist".

    That's pretty much the argument lol. No doubt it's useful, but i would say it has done alot to foster and expand a feeling of elitism in various games. Pretty much for the reasons IS has said they're leaning against them. As for the dummy in town, i think that's a-okay. Not only are those mostly private, (as in you see the numbers, and noone is sitting watching your dummy slapping) but they aren't in the middle of the action in the field. As for it also being a guild option, I think it becomes a moot point if you go down that route. Either you think they are negative for your community, in which case you say they aren't allowed, and if someone puts their own together and gets caught, they get whatever is deemed a fit consequence. Or you think they are an overall benefit, and just have it available for all. I suppose there's also just not caring enough either way, and eventually someone makes and distributes one.
  • Damokles wrote: »
    @Ventharien
    Yes, but that also lead to 40-man raids where 20 people had to carry the other 20.
    I played WoW since end of classic, raided since end of BC. Thats why i say that only raid leads get a dps function. A raid lead needs to know that stuff, so that he can sort it out with those people. (Depending on where the problem lies, do they not understand the mechanics, or is it their gear?)

    The thing is that people have to trust each other to do the right thing. I had people that said straight out that they had shitty gear. We still took them to the easy bosses and they left on their own when we got to the harder ones.
    But the problem is that most people dont think that way. People are selfish. They dont say that they do minimal damage and want to get carried. Maybe they dont even realize it because they dont have a dps meter to check it.

    Pugs should not be a valid reason why dps meters should not be a thing, because people could be thrown out because they didnt pull their own damn weight.

    Nice, seems we had the same wow timeline. What server? As to it being a raid leader only mechanic, I'd feel better about that at least, since it's already a raid leads job to manage his raids... I don't know. Morale? That seems silly to say but you know what i mean. When you have those two guys who get snippy when tension goes up, and piss everyone else off if you don't control the comms. But i know that'd be a give an inch situation, And there would probably then be either an official one, or just acceptance of a third party one. Also i trust people to do the right thing about as much as i trust myself not to down that entire 2 liter in my fridge in one sitting. (I have zero self control in said situation)
  • halbarzhalbarz Member
    edited April 30
    There are a few things I do wonder:

    - I see a lot of people comparing this game to World of Warcraft - why? This is a sandbox , the classes are waaaaay more diverse. With roles that are pretty much non existing in that game.

    - The game is advertised as a sandbox which are (if you played them before (not archeage or bdo) are community focused. How would a dps meter benefit the game ? It would only divide people no?

    General:

    - the Pro addon people in this thread seem very reasonable and nice. Sadly in over 15 years of gaming I only had bad luck in mmo's that had dps meter (got kicked in Wow for not having leveling gear but quest gear in low lvl dungeons --> lower dps (happened several times) --> just left the game and yes this kind of behavior gives people quickly the impression that a community in a game is toxic and just bad.

    - I have done many many raids in different mmo's. Raiding was often if not always more of a guild thing which resulted in teamwork, if something went wrong we communicated and went back a step.

    The reason I asked the addon question in the first place (OP here) was because we had bad experiences and yes also because having a dps meter in a sandbox seems very ... strange. Maybe reading so many different posts on several forums and websites, watching several video's on the topic has just gotten me confused lol on what this game actually is now :neutral: (there seems to be a lot of misinformation on youtube and etc. for what I have noticed)
  • NoaaniNoaani Member
    halbarz wrote: »
    (got kicked in Wow for not having leveling gear but quest gear in low lvl dungeons --> lower dps (happened several times)
    See, the thing is, combat tracker or not, this will still happen.

    If people can see your gear, they can decide to kick you if they think it is not good enough. People don't need a DPS readout to make this decision, they just need to be dicks.

    Being a dick is not reliant on access to a combat tracker.

    ---

    What I think would be worse than this though, is if you spend many years in a guild of 50 players, raiding end game content often as a pure DPS class. The guild doesn't have access to a DPS meter, and things seem to be going ok. Not great, you're months behind the best guilds, but you and your guild have fun.

    Then one day, someone finds out that there is a combat tracker for the game, and they use it. They put up a readout of the raids DPS, and you are behind some of the utility classes and even behind a few surplus healers.

    All of a sudden, you realize that you have been dragging the chain, letting your friends down for literally years.

    That is what not having a combat tracker does.

    I can see people that are in a situation where they play with different people every night not wanting one. I even agree with that.

    However, when you are in a situation where you play with the same people every night, week after week, for several years, these arguments tend to fall flat.

    This is why my suggestion is to keep them away from the former, but allow them to be used in the latter.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member
    edited April 30
    Ventharien wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    It seems to me like your argument here is"this is a tool that is obviously useful, but since some people use it wrong, it shouldn't exist".

    That's pretty much the argument lol. No doubt it's useful, but i would say it has done alot to foster and expand a feeling of elitism in various games. Pretty much for the reasons IS has said they're leaning against them. As for the dummy in town, i think that's a-okay. Not only are those mostly private, (as in you see the numbers, and noone is sitting watching your dummy slapping) but they aren't in the middle of the action in the field. As for it also being a guild option, I think it becomes a moot point if you go down that route. Either you think they are negative for your community, in which case you say they aren't allowed, and if someone puts their own together and gets caught, they get whatever is deemed a fit consequence. Or you think they are an overall benefit, and just have it available for all. I suppose there's also just not caring enough either way, and eventually someone makes and distributes one.
    Not having a tracker isn't going to stop the issues people attribute to them. The only way to stop that is to get rid of all dicks from the Internet. (edit to add; I'm in favor of this proposal, if anyone can work out the details)

    ---

    If Intrepid want to have no third party DPS meters, the only way for this to happen is to give players a means to test out new builds (with actual, hard data provided), AND to give raid leaders an overview of encounters so as to determine what has happened. To not implement that in to the game, and still expect players to not develop such tools, it is going beyond wishful thinking and edging on to the realm of delusion.

    Of course players will have combat trackers.

    However, if these two things from above are both catered for, it wouldn't be worth anyone's time to finish off a third party meter, as the desired functionality is already there. Doing this allows Intrepid to be in control, and I personally think that is better than the alternative.

    Everything else a combat tracker has is just feature creep from that one basic principle of allowing players to access builds and giving raid leaders information on encounter attempts.

    As to the notion of players getting caught, I can tell you now that one of these trackers can be run on a separate computer to the one running the client that is being tracked - one that doesn't even need to be connected to the internet. It can also be run on the same computer, but it would be able to be detected there if Intrepid were invasive enough.

    The other one though, it is being designed to work on Android (I'm likely going to need to upgrade from my Note 8 to run it though - so I've been told).

    Needless to say, the two that I know of are both being designed in a manner where Intrepid would simply be unable to detect them - that is kind of a key tenant of their design, just in case Intrepid do put something to prevent their use in the TOS/EULA.

    So, it kind of is a case of either Intrepid putting their head in the sand and ignoring the fact that these exist (or ignoring the fact that of course players will have a combat tracker), or the only other option is to take control of the situation and implement the bare minimum needed to keep people that want a tracker happy.

    Basically, there is no plausible version of events that ends in players in Ashes not having access to a combat tracker.
  • halbarzhalbarz Member
    I am curious how they are making these already without any kind of data or so but eh.

    I would much rather have an official stands that it is not allowed. IF people use it no matter how that is then up to them if they get caught --> perma ban in my opinion. Like you said some they can never track or find fine by me ... if I meet someone like that and acts out it will be easy then to add them to my blocklist :smile:

    Besides that most content is open world, having a dps meter is rather pointless. I do agree that a dummy where people can test it for themselves and only that would be ok.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member
    edited April 30
    halbarz wrote: »
    I am curious how they are making these already without any kind of data or so but eh.

    I would much rather have an official stands that it is not allowed. IF people use it no matter how that is then up to them if they get caught --> perma ban in my opinion. Like you said some they can never track or find fine by me ... if I meet someone like that and acts out it will be easy then to add them to my blocklist :smile:

    Besides that most content is open world, having a dps meter is rather pointless. I do agree that a dummy where people can test it for themselves and only that would be ok.
    That is why they won't be ready until beta. The coding for one is complete, the other is on hold until they know the format the information they will be able to get is in.

    The one that runs on PC would be able to perform part of it's function if all it is able to do is read floating combat figures (and so could probably also track streams or YouTube videos of combat, if high enough quality).

    Your point about simply blocking people is spot on though - thing is, it isn't people with DPS meters that you do that to, it is people that act like dicks.

    Ashes is going to be far more about your own reputation within your node and greater server community. Players that act like dicks to multiple players on multiple occasions will get reputations as such, and reputations stick.

    Unlike WoW, where players were just put in groups for the content they want to run, players in Ashes will be forming their own groups. Thus, players with those reputations from above will find it hard to find groups. The more people that block them, the sooner they will realize that their behavior won't be accepted in Ashes.

    Again though, the DPS meter isn't the issue. The player is the issue. Even in your example, you were kicked out of a group for the gear you were wearing - that is information players will have access to in Ashes.

    And if Intrepid do make it so that using a combat tracker is a ban-able offense (they would need to word it carefully, or they risk making streaming and YouTube videos also ban-able offenses as well). Thing is, to be, this is an idiot tax. If a player is stupid enough to use a tool without hiding it when that tool can be hidden easily, banning them is a good thing for the game.

  • halbarzhalbarz Member
    edited April 30
    This could go on for a while of course hihi.

    You are right , reputation will be very important in this game. This also means that communication is key.
    For what I understood Intrepid has made their stance on dps meters rather clear ( a no no)I do support the dummy idea for those that really badly want this.

    Would not having a dps meter (official supported or allowed) be a roadblock or not make you play the game?

    In my personal opinion any experienced raider should be able to see the weak points of the group during an encounter and communicate about this in a respectful manner without the need of some numbers.

    Don't take me wrong, I do respect your view on things and you make some good points. You seem like a really reasonable person sadly I cannot picture the other 99% people using such a tool to be the same :smiley:
  • NoaaniNoaani Member
    halbarz wrote: »
    This could go on for a while of course hihi.

    You are right , reputation will be very important in this game. This also means that communication is key.
    For what I understood Intrepid has made their stance on dps meters rather clear ( a no no)I do support the dummy idea for those that really badly want this.

    Would not having a dps meter (official supported or allowed) be a roadblock or not make you play the game?

    In my personal opinion any experienced raider should be able to see the weak points of the group during an encounter and communicate about this in a respectful manner without the need of some numbers.

    Don't take me wrong, I do respect your view on things and you make some good points. You seem like a really reasonable person sadly I cannot picture the other 99% people using such a tool to be the same :smiley:

    Here's the thing though, with my suggestion, the only people you need to make sure know how to use a combat tracker properly are the people you chose to be in a raiding guild with.

    If you don't opt to be in a raiding guild, no one is able to use a combat tracker on you. If you do chose to be in a raiding guild, and those players turn out to not know how to use a tracker, then you are not in a raiding guild that is going anywhere.

    The entire thing is opt in, and so if you don't want to opt in, no one can track what you do in combat. However, it leaves it up to those that do want to make use of them to be able to do so.

    Not having a DPS meter isn't really a situation that needs to be discussed, as it is not a possible eventuality. Not having official support for one simply means unsupported ones will be used.

    Perhaps the thing that I would focus on more if I were you is that if Intrepid retain control of who, how and where meters can be used (as long as it meets the basic requirements I outlined in an above post), then there is a good chance that no one will ever be able to use a combat tracker on you.

    If they do not implement one, then others will. If others release one, there is nothing you nor Intrepid do will be able to stop it from existing from that point on. The situation is no longer in Intrepids hands, nor is it in yours.

    Personally, I'd rather it be in the hands of all players to decide if that is what they want or not, and the only way for that to happen is for Intrepid to implement it.

    ---

    As to an experienced raider being able to see the weak points... This is not the first time this discussion has been had on these forums. In previous discussions, this point was made. Yet no one seems to be able to point out what it is that people should be looking for to see who it is that is not doing the damage output that would be expected of them.

    I've been raiding for over 15 years, a lot of that as a raid leader. I can tell you now, unless someone is literally afk, without a combat tracker of some form there is no way to tell. If I did actually put in the concentration to try and determine the spells and abilities that 40 players are using, making sure the order they use them in is near optimal for their build, and also factor in potential buffs that they may have on them, then the person not doing what is required of them in the raid would be me.

    It would be easy to spot the person that is failing to perform the tasks required by the encounters script. You don't need a combat tracker for that. However, it is not easy to see the few players that are doing 10% less damage than they should be doing - and in raids, that matters.

    Again, I am all for keeping trackers out of the hands of general pickup scum (who make up 90% of the dicks I have met in MMO's). These are the people that think they are amazing at the game because they went as far as downloading a thing for it - regardless of if they know how to use it. The fact that they have it makes them feel big, but not nearly as big as they feel for putting another player down.

    The thing about these players is - they don't need a real reason to put players down. In the absence of a real reason (or one that they think is real), they will simply make one up and then hold on to that as the truth should anyone question them.

    They don't kick people from groups because the tracker told them to, they kick people from groups because it makes them feel good.

    If combat trackers are only an option in a guild setting, and then only in guilds that opt to take one instead of a PvP perk, a crafting perk, a solo or group perk, even an economic perk, then you are basically taking it out of the hands of people that don't know what they are doing, and leaving it as a tool only in the hands of people that know how to use it to it's full and proper effect.

    In these guilds, when someone is identified as being 10% behind where they should be for what ever they are doing, they don't get kicked.

    They get helped.

    This is the difference between a guild and a pick up group.

    This is why guilds absolutely should have access to them, literally all other issues aside. Guilds use combat trackers to help each other out.
  • Wandering MistWandering Mist Moderator, Member, Founder
    My issue isn't with the addons themselves, but when the developers change aspects of the game in response to the addons. WoW is a perfect example of this. When people started using deadly boss mods in raids and dungeons, Blizzard's response to this was to make the raids harder and more complex because they expected players to use that addon. Over time it got to the point where the fights were so complex that the addons become a necessity. Now-a-days if you want to raid in WoW you NEED deadly boss mods.
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  • NoaaniNoaani Member
    My issue isn't with the addons themselves, but when the developers change aspects of the game in response to the addons. WoW is a perfect example of this. When people started using deadly boss mods in raids and dungeons, Blizzard's response to this was to make the raids harder and more complex because they expected players to use that addon. Over time it got to the point where the fights were so complex that the addons become a necessity. Now-a-days if you want to raid in WoW you NEED deadly boss mods.

    Completely agree that this is a fairly major issue.

    Unlike the issue of people being booted from groups - which is largely to be perceived as being from combat trackers but really isn't - this is an issue that is 100% on third party trackers.

    I would personally not have any kind of an issue with a combat tracker being needed for raiding - but only if that combat tracker was built in to the game itself. This also leaves it up to the game developers to decide what should and should not be shown on the tracker - which is something that goes out the window if a third party is developing it.
  • darthadendarthaden Member, Braver of Worlds
    The fact we get our hands on the game at such a early stage of development should eliminate the need for addons as long as we the testers do our jobs and provide feedback on what we like and dislike.
  • ChadathanSwaftworthChadathanSwaftworth Member, Settler
    I kinda agree that there's no way to stop people from using DPS meters if they want. (Well, it might be possible with extreme obfuscation of combat data, requiring the work of a professional infosec/anti-cheat team, but that's way more work than the problem is worth.) Everyone should accept this as fact, including Intrepid. Intrepid doesn't have a choice about whether they want a combat tracker or not.

    There are two other choices that Intrepid has to make, though. 1) Do they want to put in extra work to make a first-party combat tracker, so they have control over it's functionality/quality? 2) How do they want to police the misuse of combat trackers?

    That second choice is more important to me. They obviously aren't going to let people use combat trackers with zero oversight. But how far will they push to detect and punish the dicks who abuse them? I'd assume they're just going wait for player-made reports, and look at chat logs. And then ban anyone who is openly harassing others (using an anti-harassment clause in the ToS). That would still allow players to use and discuss DPS meters, as long as no one abuses them and gets reported for it. (First-party or third-party is irrelevant to determining "abuse".)

    I hope they don't go so far as to blanket ban all discussion of combat trackers in-game. That just forces people to talk about them in Discord instead.
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  • ChadathanSwaftworthChadathanSwaftworth Member, Settler
    I also want to address Steven's statement that people should just rely on "trial and error" to git gud and test their builds. There are some situations where that is nigh impossible without a DPS tracker. If you're doing difficult 8-man content, playing a support-y build, then your overall contribution is tied up with a plethora of confounding factors:
    1) 7 other teammates' builds,
    2) each person's variable performance/execution between runs,
    3) the specific timing of buffs and burst-phases,
    4) all the dungeon/boss mechanics (possibly with random elements),
    5) the need to try different builds/strategies (over several runs) to get a solid comparison point,
    6) the imperfection of human perception, especially during intense fights.

    It might take you 100 runs on a specific fight to sort out all of the factors and come to the conclusion that X or Y build isn't as good as you thought it was. With a combat tracker you can remove No. 5 and 6, and get some extra information on 1, 2, and 3, so that you can determine your contribution in 10 runs (plus some log reviews) instead.

    So it's not just a slight convenience; it is MASSIVELY easier to determine your own DPS contribution if you have access to a combat tracker. And again, it's not up to Intrepid to make that decision. If players want to progress faster and improve their build/raid strategy faster, then they will make/find/use third-party combat trackers.
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  • ChadathanSwaftworthChadathanSwaftworth Member, Settler
    edited April 30
    (Sorry for the triple-post, I kept having more thoughts. And they aren't quick additions to previous thoughts, so I didn't think that Edits were appropriate.)

    Of course all of this is only relevant in situations where DPS actually matters. And 90% of content doesn't have strict DPS checks, so DPS meters aren't necessary for the majority of players. There's a big issue then, when people try to push for better DPS in ALL content, just to save a little time, and they berate their teammates for not doing the same. This is the issue that Intrepid should be focused on. They need to make it clear that DPS isn't very important in the easier parts of the game, and by no means should anyone harass other players over it.

    Really, the harassment is the only problem. There are times when criticizing DPS is pointless. And there are times when it is helpful but not necessary. And there are times when it is actually important. In any of those cases, the problem comes when that criticism is made poorly/aggressively so that people feel harassed.

    The same could be said about many other factors of the game: like ranged characters who like to run and jump around all over the place while fighting. I can get annoyed at that and be an asshole to them, but in 90% of situations it doesn't really matter. And in the case that it does matter (like if I need them to stand in one spot for healing), there are good and bad ways to make that criticism. The solution isn't to hide everyone's movement so that I can't get annoyed. I think hiding DPS numbers is equally ridiculous. (It's not a perfect comparison, but I hope it helps illustrate my point.)

    Edit: Btw, people could write books about all the nuance between "unsolicited, but helpful advice" and "unwarranted harrassment", and how it depends on the context, player, and wording. Communication is a difficult skill and all that. Talking about poor performance and improvement is especially hard. I don't that's a good reason to ban DPS meters though. MMOs should be a good place to practice such communication skills. Just try not to be an asshole most of the time, eh?
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  • leonerdo wrote: »
    I also want to address Steven's statement that people should just rely on "trial and error" to git gud and test their builds. There are some situations where that is nigh impossible without a DPS tracker. If you're doing difficult 8-man content, playing a support-y build, then your overall contribution is tied up with a plethora of confounding factors:
    1) 7 other teammates' builds,
    2) each person's variable performance/execution between runs,
    3) the specific timing of buffs and burst-phases,
    4) all the dungeon/boss mechanics (possibly with random elements),
    5) the need to try different builds/strategies (over several runs) to get a solid comparison point,
    6) the imperfection of human perception, especially during intense fights.

    It might take you 100 runs on a specific fight to sort out all of the factors and come to the conclusion that X or Y build isn't as good as you thought it was. With a combat tracker you can remove No. 5 and 6, and get some extra information on 1, 2, and 3, so that you can determine your contribution in 10 runs (plus some log reviews) instead.

    So it's not just a slight convenience; it is MASSIVELY easier to determine your own DPS contribution if you have access to a combat tracker. And again, it's not up to Intrepid to make that decision. If players want to progress faster and improve their build/raid strategy faster, then they will make/find/use third-party combat trackers.

    The problem is, people were doing all these things before trackers were a thing. Fights didn't get harder in the meantime. In fact as we saw more and more original, novel ideas, we as gamers started to see patterns. Boss tells, similar mechanics between bosses and games, LOS, avoiding floor dangers, facing the bosses, all of these became commonplace. A DPS meter doesn't tell you if you're doing the mechanics. It doesn't tell you if you're properly supporting your team, or managing your resources well for the duration of the fight. All it tells you is how much damage you poured out. In depth parse systems definitely take it a step further, perhaps tracking skill up time, usage and application, and mostly just more detailed info, but even these can be misread (usually in favor of dps). While what we would call our high end raiding community use it as a valuable tool, they generally represent a tiny fraction of the games overall population, and everyone else gets to deal with those meters being over relied on or seen as the only thing that matters in groups. Side note, I've repeatedly heard this idea that, since it's certain people will use or develop third party software regardless of IS' decision, they should just be accepted. But in the same way i wouldn't accept that arguement for exploiters, cheaters, or gold sellers, i wouldn't accept it here. These people are free to act in whatever way they see fit, and if that is against the TOS, and they are caught, recorded or seen doing these things, then they should be given whatever are the decided consequences. If they have to only chat about it in discord, buy third party apps or setups, or jump through all the hoops in the world, i'm not shedding any tears.
  • leonerdo wrote: »
    (Sorry for the triple-post, I kept having more thoughts. And they aren't quick additions to previous thoughts, so I didn't think that Edits were appropriate.)

    That's what forums are for!

    I 100% agree on the most pressing problem being the harassment and damage to the community, But i would also add that i feel that they add toward an overall trend. Hell look at the chat during this live stream. The insults, the feeling of superiority, insinuating that anyone who doesn't use some method of tracking could never be 'hardcore', That's why they aren't worth what they give. If you need to check your rotation, or combos, weapon choices, or even just see how an ability behaves, there should be in game dummies or a practice arena to do so. Ohh maybe with some moving enemies or sparring partners, that'd be cool. Either way, i'm pleased with their stance. Though if they decide to back track and add them in officially, like Steven said, they're the ones making the game.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member
    Ventharien wrote: »
    A DPS meter doesn't tell you if you're doing the mechanics. It doesn't tell you if you're properly supporting your team, or managing your resources well for the duration of the fight.
    A combat tracker will not tell you if you or someone in your raid is not performing the tasks required by the encounter script, this is correct.

    However, it will tell you if a support class is not properly supporting, and it will tell you if someone is not managing their resources properly during a fight (if you know what to look for).

    There is a vast difference between a DPS meter that exists purely for epeen reasons, and a combat tracker that is an actual useful tool.

    In the hands of someone that understands both the tool and the game, a combat tracker tells you who is buffing properly, who is debuffing and exactly when. It can tell you who has CC'd mobs, who breaks that CC, and when. It can tell you exactly what abilities a DPS has used and when they used them, who has healed others, who they have healed, hiw much they have healed and exactly when that healing happened.

    Just as importantly, it also gives you all of that info on the encounter, as well.


    Your point about hos top end raiders would likely use this tool properly, but other segments of the population would likely just derp around DPS "scores" (paraphrasing you a little here) is well taken. It is an absolute possibility that this could happen - which is why my suggestion for how to put it in game only puts it in the hands of raiders. That effectively solves the issue of people misusing it.

    Your point of comparing people using a combat tracker to those using exploits or gold selling is interesting, and not one I had considered.

    My first thought is to point out that exploiters and gold sellers all leave an in game trace of their activities that developers would be able to track. The use of a DPS meter will not.

    And as true as that is, it isn't a good reason to not bunch these people together.

    So, to that I would say that people using exploits or buying items or coin from a third party are trying to make their way through the game without putting the effort in. This is the notion that should be punished.

    People using a combat tracker are literally trying to get better at playing the game themself, a notion that should never be punished.


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