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Vassal Nodes?
Moseph
Member, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
I'm not sure if this has been asked or answered before but, is there a set number of vassal nodes a parent node can have? Can a level six node have all of the immediate nodes as level five vassals? Could those level five node then have their surrounding nodes as level four vassals? How deep does this go? Could one node theoretically take over the whole of the map?
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There isn't a level 6 node, a 5th level city can only be surrounded by 4th level towns.
They attribute to the 5th level, in which will only have enough valuable resources surrounding it to make town(s)....so on and so forth.
I hope that made sense.
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Nodes
To answer your question, theoretically yes... a level 6 node could have all surrounding nodes at level 5 and as its vassals. The way I understood its, there's no "limit" to the amount of vassal nodes a node can have with exception to how many nodes actually surround it. IE if you are surrounded by 5 other nodes, than your limit of vassal nodes is 5 (this is direct vassal nodes)
I wasn't asking either of two things, guess I should rephrase the question...
According to this https://ashesofcreation.com/news/2019-03-16-know-your-nodes-the-basics
"Vassal Nodes give excess experience to their Parent Node, and are able to have their own Vassals, as long as they fit within the Parent Node’s Zone of Influence."
If a lvl 6 node (Node A), takes another node as a vassal (Node B ), and then Node B takes a node as a vassal (Node C) which was still in Node A's Zone of Influence, is Node B the parent of Node C, or is Node A the parent?
My understanding is that the answer is both.
In terms of experience, anything gained in node C goes to Node C, until Node C reaches the cap on it's level. This cap is one level less than it's parent node, or Node B.
Once Node C reaches this cap, any experience gained in Node C goes to Node B, until Node B reaches the cap on it's level. This cap is one level less than it's parent node, or Node A.
Once Node B reaches this cap, any experience gained in Node B goes to Node A. Since Node C's experience is going to Node B, but Node B is now at it's cap and all experience from Node B is going to Node A, this means all experience from Node C is ending up in Node A.
That wasn't what I was asking either. Where did the experience part come from? I was asking about "parent" and "vassal" nodes, XP wasn't even mentioned.
As to your question of if one metro could keep growing till it controlled all the nodes, no. It would eventually hit the limit of its expansion where no new nodes could be vassalized, or run into the borders of another group of nodes. Plus there can only be 5 metros in existence. You should check out the wiki or ashes 101 though like unknownsystemerror said though, there is alot about them.
People were explaining that the "Node C" as you put it can NEVER out level what you call "Node B"(While the parent/vassal relationship exists) regardless that "Node A" is the grandparent of "Node C"
Here is the map of the game according to the wiki: https://ashesofcreation.wiki/World_map
Taking into account there will be 118 nodes and certain nodes will not have other nodes on all sides of them it would be impossible for one node to take over everything.
Ohh in the wiki it says Village nodes up apply the lockdown. Referencing Know your Nodes: The Basics.
Again it depends on how the sequence of leveling up happens. If you have 4 level 5 nodes in a ring right next to each other and one of them levels up, you now have what you described.
So you won't have ALL immediate nodes at level 5 since the Zone of influence would prevent at some point that surrounding nodes could level up that far, but in general you could have several of them at level 5 at least.
Here is a visualization of that concept from the wiki
That is how it works. Effectively if THIS node can not advance any further in levels, it is because it is a vassal node to THAT node.
Down to level 3 as a parent node.
No the highest level zone of influence is 6 and that doesn't reach far enough. They can only prevent nodes to advance further in a given radius(again depending on how the zones develop). We can get some wacky borders but in general the world will be divided into 5 parts, around 5 metropolises as their heart.
I can be a life devouring nightmare. - Grisu#1819
Thanks. What I was looking for was demonstrated by the bottom right lvl 5 node in the visualization. It appears that while the bottom right lvl 5 node is in the lvl 6's zone of influence, the far right lvl 4 node is not, making the lvl 5 node the parent and not lvl 6 node.
6 is the parent of 5. The parent of node 4 is node 5 and not node 6. So it does expand as I was thinking.
(. 6 5) 4) 3) 2) 1)
The spaces of my little drawing didnt post the same way it was in edit mode.
I think vassalization is a hierarchical structure unbound by range itself, but has a priority to the next higher level of a node.
So taking your example from the bottom right, the level 4 node would be a vassal to the level 6 node, but only after it did all it's mechanical importance as a vassal to the level 5 node to it's full capacity. (like sharing exp)
Otherwise I would have some trouble with how superpowers of metropolises or specialized buildings that affect vassals trickle down the whole infrastructure. Some would appear to be rather useless if it just went to the very next nodes around it and the wording makes me think that it works this way.
It's one of those things that just haven't been delved into in all it's details yet. We will have to wait on the clarification.
I can be a life devouring nightmare. - Grisu#1819
There may be a "generation" in between, but they are all essentially, eventually, vassals of that level 6 node. They will all gain the benefits of being a vassal of that metropolis as well.
While the bottom right level 3 and level 4 nodes may not fall directly in the ZoI of that level 6 node, since the level 3 falls in the ZoI of the level 4, the level 4 falls in the ZoI of the level 5 and the level 5 falls in the ZoI of the level 6, they are all vassals of that level 6 node.
@Ventharien @Moseph @grisu
That's exactly what I'm asking about. In the visualization above, the node 4 I'm talking about is OUT of node 6's Zone of Influence, and in the "Know your Nodes" post (https://ashesofcreation.com/news/2019-03-16-know-your-nodes-the-basics), a vassal node needs to be in the Zone of Influence of it's parent node. Because it's OUT of Node 6's zone, but IN Node 5's zone, I'm assuming it's parent is Node 5.
The bottom Node 4 is in the Zone of Influence for both nodes 5 and 6. So that one seems like it could be the vassal of either node 5 or 6.
I doubt that lvl1 lockouts are gonna make it past the first alpha since it only takes hours to hit lvl1, and they really should update their website since there’s no mention of level lockouts until a neighboring node hits 3.
Now that it came to this I went out to find the exact wording again to put this to rest and stop any further confusion. Here you go.
- https://ashesofcreation.com/news/node-series-part-one
I hope this is now put to rest.
I can be a life devouring nightmare. - Grisu#1819
That quote certainly seems to refer to vassalage, where a parent node absorbs exp gained from the vassal node. That’s also an article posted 2 years before Know Your Nodes: The Basics article, which says only this about level lockouts:
If node 5 is a vassal of node 6, then all vassals of node 5 are also cassals of node 6 - regarsleas of whether they are in node 6's direct ZoI - because as soon as node 5 becomes a vassal of node 6, node 5's ZoI effectively becomes node 6's ZoI.
Basically, nodes can have more than one parent.
Nodes being locked out at level 1 is a thing. It got a little confusing with one of the Know your Node articles, but we got that cleared up. You will notice that the comment directed to me. Unfortunately you guys cannot see the entire conversation because it happened in the content creator channel which is locked to only Content Creators.
However, Steven and I have a very good working relationship when it comes to the educational part of Ashes, so when a major topic comes under dispute, he usually listens, and then says either yes you are right, no you are wrong, or I'm not going to tell you that yet.
There are two different mechanics being discussed here. The vassal system and the lockout system.
It is correct that the Vassal System does not begin until Level 3. A level 2 node does not enslave a Level 1 Node. This just doesn't happen. With the level 3 node comes government and with government becomes that Vassal Parent relationship. Now, it should be noted that yes a Level 1 or Level 2 node can be a Vassal Node to a level 3 parent, its just a Level 2 Node cannot have Vassals.
It is also correct that a Level 1 Node blocks out all neighboring Level 0 nodes from making the transition from Level 0 to Level 1. Until that first Level 1 node hits level 2, none of its neighbors can hit level 1.
Even when that happens, there are bits and pieces that have to happen, races are on to see which nodes can reach level 1 first. When that next node hits level 1, it will begin blocking out its neighbors from hitting level 1.
If you want to dig into more you can visit the Ashes 101 website on the topic https://www.ashes101.com/nodes
or skip right to Part I of the Ashes 101 Nodes Series:
If you have any questions @ me or hit me up on Discord.
The wiki article now includes Steven's clarfication:
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Vassal_nodes
Ok awesome, thank you for clarifying for sure. Also if you get the chance to bring it up to him, maybe suggest the official articles clarify that the lockouts start at lvl1?
@Jahlon Do you happen to know if sieging, or any kind of node destruction, is possible from outside the node in the case of neighbors not wanting that first lvl1 node to be the biggestbaddest node for the area? Or will players just have to let the node atrophy down to lvl0 again?
So there is no way to destroy a Level 1 or Level 2 Node. You can prevent a Node from reaching those levels by disrupting it, but if you want a node somewhere and there is a level 1 node in the way you have to force it into Atrophy.