Archetypes and roles

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  • Now I said that every class could tank. But since there are two support classes bard and cleric there is no need for every class to heal or support. But as things are right now you will have a shortage of tanks unless IS finds a way to put more tanks in the game. But lets say everyone had the option to tank through the tank archetype then there would no shortage of tanks per say. So what about support.

    Well I recommend designing the support classes in the following manner. Think best think to do is to make the tank support dps composition the ideal and most effective comp. One way to do this is if

    1)support classes in this case bards and clerics had buffs that increased overall party dps and tank defensive cool passive abilities.

    2)had buffs that are crucial like a hast spell that affects the entire party for a dose of busrt dps when critical in dungeounsand andraids.

    3) If support class could do things like target a freindly toon and cleanse them of all cc and make them immune from cc for let say 4 seconds could be useful for pvp and pve.

    4)brought significant dps to the table

    5) Had an array of utility buffs and debuffs

    6) Brought usuall heals to the table that tank needs for difficult fights

    Then support classes would heal. buff, debuff, have utility abilities and contribute dps.

    But lets talk about something else real quick if IS designed the dungeouns so that support classes were almost necessary but could be done without a dedicated support class. (already posted extensively on this topic on another thread). This way there would no shortage of support class because if you had to you could just tough it out and do with out. But at the same time almost every one would want a support class in their group because of all the cool things that they contribute to the party. So support classes would still be greatly sought after but would not stop a group from doing a dungeoun if they did not have one.

    Seen posts from people that play healers (guessing) that they want healers that are not just unending fountains of heals this would in fact solve that problem.

    So tanks would need heals (or the extra support) from such classes for difficult conent and welcomed for easier content, but it is not neccecary for tanks to mitigate ridiculous amounts of damage that require a ridiculous amountof heals. This really goes well the PvX philosophy. Becuase if you make unkillable tanks in pve well and unkillable tanks in pvp are devastating. Yes he does low dps but if he cannot be killed then he will eventually just kill everyone. (Actually real problem with blood dks in pvp in WoW in MoP and Cata eras)


    Now with the suggested tank archetypes to put in terms of percentages it is like taking a mage and making it 75 to 80 percent tank and 20 to 25 percent dps while a tank as far as how effective a tank is they would be at 100 percent. But just to be clear there is no need for a hunter rogue to be 75 percent rogue and 25 percent hunter.
    So the rest of the archetypes do not need to be as impactful as a tank archetype.

    While it may seem kind of weird to do what I just posted it actually works really well with PvX, there will be no shortage of tanks cause every one will be able to tank, and there will be no shortage of support classes cause while it may take longer and maybe group may wipe a little more technically support classes would not be neccessity. Just every one would want one cause all the cool things they contribute to the party.

    Also would like to mention that i used tems like buff and debuff and utility abilities, well while this words do not sound to exciting the actual abilities that IS could come up with could be very exciting.

    Lasty I forgot to say that in the case of the tank rogue, rogues or notorios for using poisions so that represents and additional debuff like slower attack rate, Actually could have a little be of Rng and have random effects that are related to poisons. Plus Rogues can usually disarm humanoids so really while using traditional rogue abilities and using dual weapons When you put it all together rogues could be devasting tanks. In PvP rogues can be devasting in the hands of the right palyer and do 1 vs 2 so concept is not to far fectched.

  • @consultant
    Thats why I always say that the classes should be divided into pairs of two depending on their rolls.

    Tank and Fighter are Tanks. Fighter through mitigation like Parry or dodge and Tank through Mitigation of blocking.

    Rogue and Ranger are physical DPS. If they keep the direction of the last reported ranger gameplay, then they most likely specialise in harrassing the enemies and halting their advance (Traps and slows or ambush).

    Mage and Summoner are magical DPS and battlefield control. The summoner could do cool stuff like summoning walls for a short duration, while the mage deals with aoe effects that hinder enemy movement or make terrain unpassable (Blackhole spell that they show all the time)

    Bard and Cleric are Support. The Bard deals mostly with Buffs while casting HoT's and the Cleric deals with main healing and small scale buffs to HP and Mana regen.
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  • Damokles wrote: »
    @consultant
    Thats why I always say that the classes should be divided into pairs of two depending on their rolls.

    Tank and Fighter are Tanks. Fighter through mitigation like Parry or dodge and Tank through Mitigation of blocking.

    Rogue and Ranger are physical DPS. If they keep the direction of the last reported ranger gameplay, then they most likely specialise in harrassing the enemies and halting their advance (Traps and slows or ambush).

    Mage and Summoner are magical DPS and battlefield control. The summoner could do cool stuff like summoning walls for a short duration, while the mage deals with aoe effects that hinder enemy movement or make terrain unpassable (Blackhole spell that they show all the time)

    Bard and Cleric are Support. The Bard deals mostly with Buffs while casting HoT's and the Cleric deals with main healing and small scale buffs to HP and Mana regen.

    The problem is, Then why would you ever play tank? Unless you lowered the damage potential of fighter, which draws it out of what most people will think when they hear of that class. I like the way they have it now personally. One dedicated tank one dedicated healer and varying shades between those and dps.
  • Ventharien wrote: »
    Damokles wrote: »
    @consultant
    Thats why I always say that the classes should be divided into pairs of two depending on their rolls.

    Tank and Fighter are Tanks. Fighter through mitigation like Parry or dodge and Tank through Mitigation of blocking.

    Rogue and Ranger are physical DPS. If they keep the direction of the last reported ranger gameplay, then they most likely specialise in harrassing the enemies and halting their advance (Traps and slows or ambush).

    Mage and Summoner are magical DPS and battlefield control. The summoner could do cool stuff like summoning walls for a short duration, while the mage deals with aoe effects that hinder enemy movement or make terrain unpassable (Blackhole spell that they show all the time)

    Bard and Cleric are Support. The Bard deals mostly with Buffs while casting HoT's and the Cleric deals with main healing and small scale buffs to HP and Mana regen.

    The problem is, Then why would you ever play tank? Unless you lowered the damage potential of fighter, which draws it out of what most people will think when they hear of that class. I like the way they have it now personally. One dedicated tank one dedicated healer and varying shades between those and dps.

    Why do people play a Warrior Tank or a Monk Tank or a Paladin Tank etc in WoW and not just everyone the same class? Because they have a different approach to solving a problem.
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  • Something I forgot to mention is support classes do have a critical role so it could be decided that they going to fill support/dps roles and not tank. If they do tank then you lose a support toon plus lke a tank cleric would also need support so creates need for support class times 2.

    Also the dps class times the dps Archetype does not need to be that impactful either but can be based on the needs of the class. Like if a class needs a little more depth and imersion the archtypes would be a good way to remedy this.

    Also the Cleric Archetypes like Ranger Cleric well having a Ranger going around playing the support role does not make sense to a lot of people but since support roles would not be absolutley necessary then no need to make cleric archetype that impactful. But it could work Ranger going around shooting holy arrows or bolts of holy pulsating energy to freindlies. Power shot becomes Power heal and so on. Would like to use the staff that Stargirl uses as a reference point for pulsating energy but would be arrows of course. But lets say Ashes of Creation decides agains that. So every class would not fill the support role but may ahve minor support ability. . There are already 2 classes that do that and would just over lap roles. Not so in case of tanks.

    So that leaves warrior tank which in my opinion easy to turn into tank and the four other dps classes Rogue, Mage, Summoner, and Ranger. So really you could in fact only have five tank Archetypes to buff one of them being real easy.

    Again this Idea may seem kind weird but it is a solution that works withing the guidelines of what is already there. Plus you get to keep the trinity while allowing evrery one to tank.
  • Damokles wrote: »
    Why do people play a Warrior Tank or a Monk Tank or a Paladin Tank etc in WoW and not just everyone the same class? Because they have a different approach to solving a problem.

    Very true, but in this case the change in how a thing gets done is tied to the the subclass. And even in wow, they failed to keep any real difference between the majority of the playstyles tanking. My dk tanks just the same way my pally or warrior tanks. some amount of healing, some type of stun or mobility boost, and various mitigation. They're all heavy up front fighters. (Monk was a breath of fresh air that actually played differently)

  • EllaraEllara Member
    Ventharien wrote: »
    Damokles wrote: »
    Why do people play a Warrior Tank or a Monk Tank or a Paladin Tank etc in WoW and not just everyone the same class? Because they have a different approach to solving a problem.

    Very true, but in this case the change in how a thing gets done is tied to the the subclass. And even in wow, they failed to keep any real difference between the majority of the playstyles tanking. My dk tanks just the same way my pally or warrior tanks. some amount of healing, some type of stun or mobility boost, and various mitigation. They're all heavy up front fighters. (Monk was a breath of fresh air that actually played differently)

    It's not that hard to come up with different styles of tank classes. I could imagine the 'tank' class to be more focused on damage mitigation and actively blocking damage, while the warrior class might be able to tank through health leeching abilities and higher damage in comparison. Give the tank class some group utility so his role is more about protection and defence, and the warrior could be more about damage and (AoE) control.
  • KebenKeben Member
    In WoW the idea of hybrid classes was soon killed off by min-maxing. For example Shaman was originally intended to be an off-tank hence they had a threat weapon buff and could use a shield. Did we ever see shamans off-tanking anything? Nope. This worries me for AoC secondary spec, I love the choice it gives but I feel min-maxing will eventually force your choice. Wrong spec? No group invites or you perform in a sub-par way.

    In an ideal world it would be balanced out so all 64 classes are equally useful but we all know that won't happen with current MMO player mentality. All it takes is for a big streamer to say 1 is best and all the sheep will follow.
  • NeurathNeurath Member
    In AA and AA:U only around 10 of the classes weren't really viable. Over 50 Classes were viable. Ashes uses a similar setup, I would hope the team manage to make all 64 Variations Viable. It is not impossible to create all 64 archetypes and make them all viable. It just takes time, feedback and a willingness to adjust parameters.

    WoW is a bad example for a game, especially since Ashes isn't a WoW Clone.
  • JexzJexz Member
    edited August 4
    As a tank player I'm probably biased. But I hope they do not let x/tank classes tank ill copy paste this reasoning, as there are multiple threads on this topic.
    tank/cleric or cleric/tank should not be enough to fill both rolls as you will gain an extra DPS. If a DPS/tank or DPS/Cleric is enough then why would you not chose them as you will yield a higher DPS and clear faster.

    If you are worried about finding a Tank then play a Tank don't lobby to trivialize the class.
  • Jexz wrote: »
    As a tank player I'm probably biased. But I hope they do not let x/tank classes tank ill copy paste this reasoning, as there are multiple threads on this topic.
    tank/cleric or cleric/tank should not be enough to fill both rolls as you will gain an extra DPS. If a DPS/tank or DPS/Cleric is enough then why would you not chose them as you will yield a higher DPS and clear faster.

    If you are worried about finding a Tank then play a Tank don't lobby to trivialize the class.

    Dont forget: Certain things are main class locked!
    Straight up heals are cleric locked and block or straight up damage mitigation is most likely tank locked.
    A x/Tank would give the class some more selfdefense so that they dont take AS MUCH damage as normally.
    A mage would take it if they knew that they would play a anchor role in PvP for example so that they wont get one shotted by enemy rogues.
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  • I think it's set up fine the way it is now. If you wanted a tank with evasion, or with mitigation, there are subclasses of that. But if you make fighter also a tanking class, whats the difference between fighter/ tank and tank/fighter? Eventually you run into balance problems where the fighter is survivable enough compared to the tank, or it is survivable, and so it's damage makes it better than the tank. If you want to tank, at this point you know exactly what class to pick.
  • Ventharien wrote: »
    I think it's set up fine the way it is now. If you wanted a tank with evasion, or with mitigation, there are subclasses of that. But if you make fighter also a tanking class, whats the difference between fighter/ tank and tank/fighter? Eventually you run into balance problems where the fighter is survivable enough compared to the tank, or it is survivable, and so it's damage makes it better than the tank. If you want to tank, at this point you know exactly what class to pick.

    The thing is that we dont know the fighters main feature. bards buff, clerics heal, rogues can stealth, rangers can place traps etc and the tank can mitigate direct damage. I would say that the fighter can use parry as his main feature.

    Fighter/Tank and Tank/Fighter will be like Bard/Cleric and Cleric/Bard in my opinion.
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  • Sure we do. Fighters hit lol. But more seriously, fighters would be frontline damage dealers, specializing in melee mobility. If the rogues are the flankers, the fighters should be damaging the enemy head on. and tanks and fighters (from what we know) fight in the same fashion, with the difference being how much punishment they can take.
  • I think it's going to tie to how many second archetype augments they give us. I haven't really heard a real answer from the developers on that, but that is going to be the most important thing regarding class we hear about. The class data we were giving is missing parts and too scrambled to really make a lot of sense of it right now. I heard things about advancement trees with skills so I don't know if these will be effected by second archetypes either.

    I'm sure we'll get all our class questions answers by the next year.
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  • Just as a freindly reminder in the world of instant que other companies have designed their games with the intention of having enough tanks and healers. Things like 4-5 classes can tank and 4-5 classes can play support and there is still a shortage of tanks and healers. So better to have as many tanks and supports as feasable. Plus might be good idea to have tank and support incentive programs.

    Warriors and rogues are melee classes and support classes usually ranged so you would have to be really creative to have them do support role but is possible. Tank class really should be tanking.

    This is actuallly a continuation of a question from one of the dev discussion of well should classes be allowed to do everything or have demarcated roles. So answer is ......

    Dps times dps archetypes should be significant and represent variety and playstyles and the things noted above

    As far tanks and support classes Well the game needs as many tanks and supporters /healers as it can have.
    Those should be put in game as applicaple without regard to how impactful or demarcated an archetype should be.


    Every class class does not have to do everything but there needs to lots of tanks and support choices. Warriors could in fact play support as Paladins but in case Rogues seems like you would be forcing the issue so you could have them just tank and dps. But rogue suppurt class could work with things like darts that inject healing syrums into you and smoke bombs that have some benificial effect like maybe throwing some mushrooms and the spores come out and have healing properties. Plus one heal from being a rogue cleric and that might do it. Just seems to far away from the norm but if you never get away from the norm them probably just be like every other MMO.

  • At some point I wasnt sure if we were still talking about Ashes of Creation mechanics but I understand where post is coming from.

    DPS in itself is the art of maximizing the health reduction of the enemy to a point of neutralization. If this can be done with a single button push in a fraction of a second, you have completed your role to maximum efficiency.

    Having more roles than neutralizing a target in the most efficient time possible begins a hybrid path apart from true DPS. What I mean is when a DPS scans the battlefield they are rarely looking to even CC. They are trying to bring health bars to zero in the shortest amount of time possible in a pve scenario.

    Concluding, DPS is not boring for me even if it only requires one button due to the process of preparation, positioning, and coordination that results in the most efficient kill.
  • BeOwningU wrote: »
    At some point I wasnt sure if we were still talking about Ashes of Creation mechanics but I understand where post is coming from.

    DPS in itself is the art of maximizing the health reduction of the enemy to a point of neutralization. If this can be done with a single button push in a fraction of a second, you have completed your role to maximum efficiency.

    Having more roles than neutralizing a target in the most efficient time possible begins a hybrid path apart from true DPS. What I mean is when a DPS scans the battlefield they are rarely looking to even CC. They are trying to bring health bars to zero in the shortest amount of time possible in a pve scenario.

    Concluding, DPS is not boring for me even if it only requires one button due to the process of preparation, positioning, and coordination that results in the most efficient kill.

    Well some classes can be that way . Lets say class with mostly dps abilities then those classes should have pretty interesting choices on how to punish the enemy and not just push one button per say but full array of abilities like damage over times areas of effects, single target damage. Guessing rogue would fit discription ninjas fall under rogue category. All that being true.....

    Tanks and Healers (not a healer myself) just have a lot more to do which makes those classes more interesting and fun Just saying that as a matter of persanal opinion. I do tank and my main is dps ranger or hunter there are two totaly different experences would recomend multiclassing as in healing tanking and dps to anyone.

  • What I really see is you want the ranger(hunter from wow) to do everything possable. This isn't WoW, and thank the sandal god for that. You want to off-tank as a ranger take the tank sub. You want to CC(crowd control) sure maybe one, Ranger is a martial class type dealing with more snares on a single target, and maybe pins not a full blown caster class(real support imo).
  • It seems like a massive task to implement 64 classes, i can't help wondering if they would had been better off sticking to the 8 archetypes and having complex tree skill structure instead.

    You could add or adjust to the skill tree in later patches.
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  • It seems like a massive task to implement 64 classes, i can't help wondering if they would had been better off sticking to the 8 archetypes and having complex tree skill structure instead.

    You could add or adjust to the skill tree in later patches.

    I wouldn’t say they are 64 classes in the traditional sense. There are 8 main classes to choose from which give you your main skills and skill trees. Then each of those have 8 archetypes to choose from which give access to 4 schools of augments which change the way your main abilities work and we as of yet don’t know if every skill in the tree can be augmented or just certain ones. So really they aren’t coming up with mechanics for 64 classes
  • It seems like a massive task to implement 64 classes, i can't help wondering if they would had been better off sticking to the 8 archetypes and having complex tree skill structure instead.

    You could add or adjust to the skill tree in later patches.

    They dont implwment 64 classes.
    They have 8 classes with their distinct skills, which you then adapt with your secondary choice.
    A Bard/Fighter has the same base bilities as any other Bard/Anything.
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