Glorious Alpha Two Testers!
Alpha Two Realms are now unlocked for Phase II testing!
For our initial launch, testing will begin on Friday, December 20, 2024, at 10 AM Pacific and continue uninterrupted until Monday, January 6, 2025, at 10 AM Pacific. After January 6th, we’ll transition to a schedule of five-day-per-week access for the remainder of Phase II.
You can download the game launcher here and we encourage you to join us on our for the most up to date testing news.
Alpha Two Realms are now unlocked for Phase II testing!
For our initial launch, testing will begin on Friday, December 20, 2024, at 10 AM Pacific and continue uninterrupted until Monday, January 6, 2025, at 10 AM Pacific. After January 6th, we’ll transition to a schedule of five-day-per-week access for the remainder of Phase II.
You can download the game launcher here and we encourage you to join us on our for the most up to date testing news.
Comments
I would like to answer your question with a question of my own
Does dungeon scaling making the game more fun?
In D&D character "levels" were assign to show progress in campaigns and to quickly determine an appropriate challenge for that specific group of players.
Have you guys assign a point system to gear and abilities to allow you to change or balance character levels?
If a character charges through a dungeon without any challenge they will probably say it was boring.
If a character gets pwned in a dungeon in the first room or cant even beat a boss they will say it was too hard.
A system that scales to a players character does not account for player skill and thus does a disservice to them by judging them weak or too strong.
I personally would think of a dungeon more like a mini game where your invading a hostile faction and choosing to attack down specific paths. Every room should have a boss and every boss should be able to make decisions that change the flow.
If a player progresses faster the enemies might get harder or lay more traps to slow them down and if the group is too slow the enemies may be running away and only leaving trash behind.
No idea how your game classes or levels work, I just don't want to one shot every enemy or get ganked by a gear check boss.
Wouldn't spend too much time-designing these when you could implement Guild Strongholds or player created dungeons as a reward for finishing a raid
That is how you create fluid and relevant content, public dungeons where people who are interested in other aspects of the game outside of end game pve/pvp can influence the world and not feel punished for wanting to player at a slower/different pace and focus on other aspects.
I'd also like to see less trash in one room but make them at least somewhat aware. It's pretty immersion breaking play a game like WOW when your beating on a mob and his buddy who is clearly in the line of site just stands there. If a mob can see you attacking their friend they should be coming to their comrades aid
Oh you will be so pleased
If it's meant to be tied to temporary content (lasting weeks rather than months) then I'd prefer a more narrow level range so I can experience it all before it's gone.
Minions could actually be at a lower level than some hyper-inflated power level just to fit into a dungeon (I'm looking at you, lvl 50 <insert mundane critter type>). The dungeon could also have a wider variety of mobs to flesh out the dungeon's theme.
Man you're gonna be disappointed by the complete absence of group finders, grind spots, and on-demand fast travel. You comment also has no relevancy to the discussion topic.
General movement and game speed
The size of dungeons
The ability to mount in in dungeons
The ability to "skip" mobs
The ability to kite and group up mobs
A wide level range could cause utter boredom!
Imagine having to kill 50 mobs before reaching mobs worth killing at your level.
Now imagine doing the same thing, but you're on a mage where you need to regenerate your mana every 3rd kill, as your spells mana cost scaled with your level.
WoW has handled this quite nicely in my opinion. Nearly every class/spec is able to sneak past lower level mobs or tank; group them up and slay them all at once with AOE abilties (In dungeons) or simply walk past them until they deaggro (Open world).
There are several other MMORPGs where if you return to a lower level zone, perhaps to repair your items or store the items in your backpack, you need to spend 30 minutes traveling back to your original location as there is no fast-travel or teleportation options. This is definitely a factor which has caused me to say "Ah, screw this, im going to bed" several times in the past as I simply cannot be bothered to hold W for 30 minutes.
In case those that dont know this it's a dungeon sitting on top of a tavern called the yawning portal.
There is a huge circular platform in the center of the inn and it cost 1gp to get lowered down into the dungeon. To get back up if you survive there is a wall with shields on the wall, you bang on them and that signals them to raise you up.
The dungeon(s) are immense, over 25 total. (Google undermontain map. Hold your jaw though because it will fall open and down to the floor once you see the sizes of some of these.)
This way each level could be increased by 5 as you go down.
Feeling cocky and want to give a level a go that is a little over your head, you can but there is danger down further and not just from denizens alone....other guilds or parties are fighting for gold and treasure as well.
I just dont know how you could fit the tavern into the lore....or...hmmm...have the tavern level up as it becomes more popular with PC's. The gold entry fee could help in advancing the tavern since someone has to stand by the platform almost 24/7 to raise adventurers out if they beat on the shields.
Once it advances to its highest level the tavern is there and will become part of the lore.
Of course, all this would be open world...no instancing.
Pic is of level 1 of Undermountain.
https://images.app.goo.gl/ntGWNhS69jWPtKeJ8
If this is not possible, then the level range should probably be tighter so a portion of the dungeon doesn't become irrelevant to most of the population later on in the game.
- Based on node level, it would be neat if the dungeon "expanded" as the node level increased which aligns to the design of the world "growing" with more event triggers happening.
- New creatures/replaced creatures per node level on each floor
- As the dungeon "expands" due to node level increase, i would have that expansion area contain higher level mobs, instead of dungeons level 40-45 throughout the whole thing. The deeper you go, the stronger they get.
- This enables more exploration and a reason to revisit a particular area when a user becomes better geared (if necessary)
- with each "floor" of a dungeon, let there be a REASON to complete dungeon floors 1, 2, 3, etc. Risk vs. Reward for each floor based on node level
I think it would be pretty cool to go to a dungeon at level 10, clear it with a node stage level 1, nothing but goblins and a goblin chief boss, only to come back later when node is stage level 5 and see that walls have fallen inside the dungeon that a horde of demons came sprawling out to claim the dungeon for themselves, annihilating the left over goblins hiding in the corners of the cave from the adventurers who have killed many of them. Delve to the deepest parts of the dungeon only to find the demons were controlled by an ancient undead dragon or necromancer who has signed a pack with the devil himself. Maybe even have those goblins retreat to the nearby forest after being expunged by the demons and a small camp is now located in that area who performs raids on caravans travelling through the area now; what was once a safe passage is now dangerous..
So far, most of the development around the game has been about a uniquely expanding world that changes with node levels, why not keep the dungeons aligned with the same principles?
Little of topic but you should have low level open world dungeouns and low level world boss and low level events to instill group game play in people. Skipping game mechanics for this one.
Suggested Tiers are 10 to 24 25 to39 and 40 to 50 As far as content in general goes abilities also need to be balanced out per tier as well. This is really more a repost.
Want to say that every one is head toward max level and most players will be at max level eventually so not quite sure what the benefit is of having 30 to 50 open world dungeouns. As far as tiers go that means that more people will most likely play togehter during the leveling process. vs well cannot play with other toon cause five levels ahead of me.
Or the last boss could increase in difficulty and reward by number of bosses killed.
You said should the open world dungeoun get more difficult the deeper you go into it well you do have to levels 30 to 50 it could all happen at max level. You could have an open world dungeoun with all level fifty players and all level fifity mobs and have it get more difficult as you go into it. Not sure what levels has any thing to do with it.
Dungeons should be tricky and deadly. The challenge makes us value the reward. If players rush into a dungeon they should expect to be killed.
Key Features of great dungeons:
Make the design change every 7 days so we can't look them up on the internet.
Deadly traps are so important and forgotten.
Traps that trap players deeper down and they have to escape.
Puzzles for better treasure and cool location or for story.
Secret doors
Red Herrings
Timed escapes
Stealing an item from a large deadly group of monsters.
Force players to resurrect in specific place in the dungeon until they escape like a prison. cell.
Make us dependent upon each other with different skills.
NO AUTO MAPPING or LIMITED VIEW MAPPING - or make it a special skill that is really difficult so maybe one player the group has the skill and has to lead the other people around.
This article is great on what makes a good dungeon from computer game:
https://medium.com/@felipepepe/what-makes-a-good-rpg-dungeon-505180c69d00
Tie the dungeon into the rest of the world
Making dungeons key for finding unique items for crafting or allowing towns to grow or build certain items would be great.
Having dungeons grow creatures power where if left unchecked more creatures attack towns would be fantastic.
I prefer various different dungeons to choose from. Maybe it's hard to do from a design perspective but i could everyday go for exploring a different dungeon or a different part of the world.
Back on topic though... I think I prefer experiencing increased difficulty as I go deeper in the dungeon. For example, you have Sorrow's Hunger locked in a cell right before the Dragon in one of the Alpha Island dungeons. Why not introduce Sorrow's Hunger as a boss right before the Dragon. The people who finish the dungeon by killing Sorrow's Hunger would get great rewards. But the ones who continued to take down the Dragon too would be rewarded even greater.
Dungeons had a level range and for the example just say 10-20.
when you first entered the dungeon the level 10 mobs where there and as you kept going deeper they would progress higher in level. If you were higher level then the lower level mobs would not aggro you up until you got to the point in the dungeon where they start to con an appropriate color/level.
Dark Age of Camelot had an awesome area called Darkness Falls. in the early game it was the prime jewel to get good items for the level 50 toons and even upgrades for everyone along the way. It promoted PvE and PvP or RvR in DAoC's case.
Another approach is boosting of toons. you might be in a level 20 dungeon but your friend is level 10 and he can boost up to you or you can boost down to him. You do not get all the bells and whistles of being a level 20 but you get the added stats of being boosted but not all the cool skills.
Another approach is Mobs are equivalent to your level no matter who you are.. if you are 20 then they mobs are 20 and if you are 10 then the mobs are 10 and they progress in power as you go deeper at a similar scale no matter character level.
-Nasty
MMO'n since 1997
First time I have posted as well. This is 100% how I feel on the subject. Please make the game about playing with guild members and friends no matter their level. This brings unity to the community.
Mobs should be "Aware", I.e. attack a mob and other mobs come in to help. Not just stand around waiting for your group to come slaughter them next or just pass them by.
Drops should be Individually rewarded, (Don't know how many times I have gone into a Dungeon and only come out with a few Coins, some trash drops, and a Lot of salt due to the drops being on a group loot with a master looter giving the loot out to his Buddy/ Guildmate who wasn't even the right class. It was "For an Alt."
One reason I quit playing certain games.
When I think about dungeons within Ashes of Creation, this is the type of node interactions and dynamic content I would love to see and think it could pull off very well.
To directly answer the question, I think that dungeon scaling should take into account the overall area it takes up, and the player capacity it has.
I think small to medium dungeons probably wouldn't benefit too much from significant level scaling, especially when they can't hold a large population of players.
However, I think that very large dungeons that have different environments and can hold hundred or thousands of players should scale significantly as you adventure into the dungeon.
Scale the sh*t out of it in my opinion! I would like to see dungeons that went from lvl 10 to 50 from beginning to end if possible.
My main reason is, that no other mmorpg currently has such a thing implemented to my knowledge.
Let's say there is a newly discovered dungeon of levels 10-20 or whatever. It would be cool if there was a small offshoot of the dungeon that had like some sort of "Turn back wayward traveler" message and some mobs of super high level. It would make the player remember that dungeon and add it to their list of stuff to do as they become stronger.
The poison gas example could also help groups interact more with strangers since if your party doesn't have the necessary skill(s) to access the area, the group wouldn't be able to get in there. They would go to the nearest town and shout "HEY DOES ANYONE HAVE CLEANSE", and it would engage the community. It would create its own type of rumors and legends that would entice appropriately strong adventurers to go to those areas to explore.
Just my hot take on cool dungeons! The West Marches style of D&D is where most of these ideas come from. It is an amazing way to create cool areas and dungeons when running for multiple groups of players (or in this case, multiple parties in an MMO.)
I would like to offer an alternative view for these scenarios you brought up.
The first one is blending level ranges: This is not necessary, especially if the mobs have some combat intelligence. The lower level mobs could, and probably would, run away from a no-win battle once they realize they were grossly out-matched. This would leave the way clear for the higher level characters to move down to the lower levels without having to clear the "trash" along the way.
Your second scenario was related to the first: This is actually where having the lower level mobs flee is a bonus. The higher-level characters do not have any incentive to chase down the fleeing low-level mobs because the reward, for them, is not worth it. Once again this leaves the lower level mobs intact for when the lower-level characters come along, where the reward is commensurate with the risk and their ability.
Your third scenario is: We already have the corruption system in place, but even in the place where corruption is not an issue - such as both characters are flagged as combatants - the high levels still have little incentive to attack the low level characters because the reward would be negligible to non-existent for them. Now of course their is always going to be the small percentage of griefers that you see in any MMO; simply put where PVP combat is allowed their are those who will use it to grief simply because they can. However, this would be true even if their were no dungeon involved, so to alter the dungeon design for this reason would not really solve anything as those who really want to grief will find a way.