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No character level requirement for professions

MarzzoMarzzo Member, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Some games have a level requirement to increase in your profession skills. For example "You need lvl 50 to become a master blacksmither" or something like that.

I think this is a bad thing since there is not really any logic behind it and it is just a weird restriction. I think it would be amazing if some characters had the option to be truly specialized in professions. Ofc, they wont be able to use most of the stuff they make but it could be an amazing immersive experience for some players to just focus on artisan skills.

What do you think?
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Comments

  • AzryilAzryil Member, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    I think the system has merit, if you don't require levels to advance your professions beyond a certain point you can make a bunch of level 1 alts with all the professions. Though without being able to transfer resources within the same account that would still require a second account or using a friend to transfer resources around.

    That being said, I agree that I don't like having level requirements for crafting since the above is what I end up doing in most games that have crafting systems where you can't do everything on a single character.
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  • MeowsedMeowsed Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited April 2023
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  • MarzzoMarzzo Member, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Azryil wrote: »
    I think the system has merit, if you don't require levels to advance your professions beyond a certain point you can make a bunch of level 1 alts with all the professions. Though without being able to transfer resources within the same account that would still require a second account or using a friend to transfer resources around.

    That being said, I agree that I don't like having level requirements for crafting since the above is what I end up doing in most games that have crafting systems where you can't do everything on a single character.

    Well, if it actually requires dedication and hard work to become a lvl 1 high level crafter I don't see a problem. From my experience, there is a fairly large chunk of people that want a pacifist "artisan" gameplay. We dont really lose anything in offering this.
  • AntVictusAntVictus Member, Alpha One
    The reason other games do that is simply because of how the levels in a region work. So your profession basically tells you that "hey, you're like 20-24, you should be seeing and able to mine iron in this zone." It's a decent way to as it begins to scale with what you need as a player. Hell in some games, FFXIV as an example, you can't even get to places where some gatherables are because you -HAVE- to complete the story up to a point to get there. So no, scaling with your level is fine if it's a thing.
  • Wandering MistWandering Mist Moderator, Member, Founder, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    AntVictus wrote: »
    The reason other games do that is simply because of how the levels in a region work. So your profession basically tells you that "hey, you're like 20-24, you should be seeing and able to mine iron in this zone." It's a decent way to as it begins to scale with what you need as a player. Hell in some games, FFXIV as an example, you can't even get to places where some gatherables are because you -HAVE- to complete the story up to a point to get there. So no, scaling with your level is fine if it's a thing.

    I'm personally not a fan of artificially gating off content like that. If I want to risk going into a high level area to gather high level materials, that should be a choice that I make, not a choice the game makes for me.
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  • AtamaAtama Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    I believe that gathering is just one type of crafting. If you’re actually processing raw materials into useful resources, or turning refined resources into end products, then you’re not out there harvesting stuff in the wild. You’re taking the stuff that adventurers are bringing in and working with it.
     
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  • JamationJamation Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    I'm personally not a fan of artificially gating off content like that. If I want to risk going into a high level area to gather high level materials, that should be a choice that I make, not a choice the game makes for me.

    The only areas I can think of in FFXIV that block you from entering are expansion related content. In order to enter into the different expansion areas you have to complete the story line before you can pass through a gate, boat, or portal or whatever, which I wouldn't consider artificial as the game itself is extremely story based. Otherwise, I'm pretty sure you can travel wherever you'd like.

    Also, if you didn't want to do any of that there were plenty of market boards around the base game zone you can buy those materials from in order to create products and sell for a profit. However, you'd be missing out on important skills and rewards by not clearing the expansion content as the higher level crafting/gathering quests were related to that part of the expansion.
  • Wandering MistWandering Mist Moderator, Member, Founder, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited July 2020
    Jamation wrote: »
    I'm personally not a fan of artificially gating off content like that. If I want to risk going into a high level area to gather high level materials, that should be a choice that I make, not a choice the game makes for me.

    The only areas I can think of in FFXIV that block you from entering are expansion related content. In order to enter into the different expansion areas you have to complete the story line before you can pass through a gate, boat, or portal or whatever, which I wouldn't consider artificial as the game itself is extremely story based. Otherwise, I'm pretty sure you can travel wherever you'd like.

    Also, if you didn't want to do any of that there were plenty of market boards around the base game zone you can buy those materials from in order to create products and sell for a profit. However, you'd be missing out on important skills and rewards by not clearing the expansion content as the higher level crafting/gathering quests were related to that part of the expansion.

    Even in the base game there are areas that are blocked off until you reach the relevant point in the story. I would argue that having such a fixed and linear story in an open world game completely defeats the point in having an open world in the first place. Anyone who has played Pokemon knows how frustrating it is to be blocked off from an area until you meet some arbitrary requirement because of some bullshit reason.

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  • Basically "higher character level" only means greater experience (in essence). So if your character is an adventurer who can craft, then technically he splits his time between both. Even if he is a pure crafter, then he spends all his experience on crafting. So the more experience you get (higher level), the more you can craft (in quantity and quality). The number is just a denominating factor. It feels like its a restriction but essentially its more of a guidline. Understanding this makes it easier to understand crafting. Besides, there has to be some level of difficulty to it. Think of a very rare magical sword that only an archmage can craft. You need your magic to be extremely powerful to add a vampiric regeneration to a blade. No conjuror of tricks can do this. If you choose fighter as your main class, how are you going to craft a magical sword? Through game mechanics you might be able to, but does it even make sense? How is a fighter going to get that flaming fire damage on the weapon? By dipping the mold in lava?

    Also, does it make sense to have a level 1 crafter forge a legendary suit of armor?
  • JamationJamation Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Even in the base game there are areas that are blocked off until you reach the relevant point in the story. I would argue that having such a fixed and linear story in an open world game completely defeats the point in having an open world in the first place. Anyone who has played Pokemon knows how frustrating it is to be blocked off from an area until you meet some arbitrary requirement because of some bullshit reason.

    Other than the initial start where they introduce the player to the game and the three major cities I can't remember which zones in ARR would be blocked off for gathering purposes? But it's been a while since I cleared that content so I could be forgetting something.
    And I agree that having areas blocked off for arbitrary reasons like in Pokemon is indeed annoying and silly, without spoiling things in case others play the game, the reasons a lot of regions are blocked off usually has a very significant reason story-wise.
    But the purpose of me mentioning it was in relation to the main topic of purely focusing on artisan skills, that if a player truly wanted to they could sit in any area that has a market board and buy/sell materials and crafts from there. The level of open world content and the rigorous linear story line of FFXIV is another story all together.

  • Wandering MistWandering Mist Moderator, Member, Founder, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Basically "higher character level" only means greater experience (in essence). So if your character is an adventurer who can craft, then technically he splits his time between both. Even if he is a pure crafter, then he spends all his experience on crafting. So the more experience you get (higher level), the more you can craft (in quantity and quality). The number is just a denominating factor. It feels like its a restriction but essentially its more of a guidline. Understanding this makes it easier to understand crafting. Besides, there has to be some level of difficulty to it. Think of a very rare magical sword that only an archmage can craft. You need your magic to be extremely powerful to add a vampiric regeneration to a blade. No conjuror of tricks can do this. If you choose fighter as your main class, how are you going to craft a magical sword? Through game mechanics you might be able to, but does it even make sense? How is a fighter going to get that flaming fire damage on the weapon? By dipping the mold in lava?

    Also, does it make sense to have a level 1 crafter forge a legendary suit of armor?

    If it were merely a guideline that would be fine, but more often than not it isn't. If for example the game said "the materials you need are found in a zone with x level monsters", that is a guideline. If the game says "you can't go to that area until you are x level" that is an arbitrary restriction that has no place in an mmorpg, in my opinion anyway.
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  • tugowartugowar Member, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Level 1 master crafter just means that somebody’s going to make an alt and have their top level character be the gatherer. I’m against this. I don’t want to encourage level one alts.

    Virtue is the only good.
  • Wandering MistWandering Mist Moderator, Member, Founder, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    tugowar wrote: »
    Level 1 master crafter just means that somebody’s going to make an alt and have their top level character be the gatherer. I’m against this. I don’t want to encourage level one alts.

    Why are level 1 alts bad?
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  • tugowartugowar Member, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    If you can create processors an d crafters on alts that require no effort to make, then it promotes vertical integration (“I’ll do it all myself”) rather than having specialization (“I can only do this one part; people need me and I need people”).

    Virtue is the only good.
  • Wandering MistWandering Mist Moderator, Member, Founder, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    self-sufficiency is going to happen regardless. The only way to stop that is to stop alts entirely.
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  • tugowartugowar Member, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    That’s like saying crime is going to happen anyway, why do we even have laws.

    The consequences keep moderate people from crossing over.

    Having to level your character to max level in order to max craft keeps casuals away, which ultimately stimulates the economy.

    Virtue is the only good.
  • Undead CanuckUndead Canuck Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    It will be pretty hard to be an all-in-one player. Since you cannot transfer raw materials between characters, it will make more sense to get a group that works and crafts together.
    At the least, you will have to rely on at least one other person to transfer stuff. Another reason to join a guild!
  • MeowsedMeowsed Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited April 2023
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  • It will be pretty hard to be an all-in-one player. Since you cannot transfer raw materials between characters, it will make more sense to get a group that works and crafts together.
    At the least, you will have to rely on at least one other person to transfer stuff. Another reason to join a guild!

    Are you sure about that? What stops people from getting a house/freehold and give their alts permison to access the storage?
  • CaerylCaeryl Member
    It will be pretty hard to be an all-in-one player. Since you cannot transfer raw materials between characters, it will make more sense to get a group that works and crafts together.
    At the least, you will have to rely on at least one other person to transfer stuff. Another reason to join a guild!

    Are you sure about that? What stops people from getting a house/freehold and give their alts permison to access the storage?

    The fact that you can’t transfer materials using freeholds, for one
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    Players may obtain and place storage containers in their player-owned housing.

    There are restrictions on the grades of storage containers available in different types of houses.

    Access permissions can be set to allow others to access a player's personal storage devices.
    Personal storage chests may be set to permit access by family or guild members.

    So presumably if your alt is in the same guild or family as your main (family would be my suggestion) you can easily pass materials on to them.

    The warehousing system in the game (that seems to be a different system to general storage) can be used to pass items on to alts, but can't be used to pass on anything that would normally use the caravan system.

    Obviously though, all of that is subject to change.
  • Caeryl wrote: »
    It will be pretty hard to be an all-in-one player. Since you cannot transfer raw materials between characters, it will make more sense to get a group that works and crafts together.
    At the least, you will have to rely on at least one other person to transfer stuff. Another reason to join a guild!

    Are you sure about that? What stops people from getting a house/freehold and give their alts permison to access the storage?

    The fact that you can’t transfer materials using freeholds, for one

    Thats warehouses. as far as I know they said nothing about restricting ressources beeing transfered via freeholdes and even said that you can set access permission for storage devices.
    Of course it is possible that ressources cannot be transfered via freehold but I would like a quote for that if it exists.
  • akabearakabear Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited July 2020
    If general level advancement is linked to crafting level advancement or any profession advancement for that matter, and visa versa then not so interested.

    I do not want to see players find the meta for level advancement and base their whole character (power) leveling advancement on that.

    ie if baking bread was found to be the fastest xp gain, then everyone that wants to power level just sits their character in town to bake bread until they reach their desired level. OR cutting trees like another recent mmo

    And even more so if Pvp, Pve advancement are linked.

    I prefer if you use a skill, you advance it (simple and fair)

    And prefer to see limitation on what skills can be advanced so their becomes player interdependency, Not a lot of point to being an MMORGP if you can do everything solo.

    So, if leveled via the actions of the given activity, then sure, reward those that put the time
  • Undead CanuckUndead Canuck Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    It will be pretty hard to be an all-in-one player. Since you cannot transfer raw materials between characters, it will make more sense to get a group that works and crafts together.
    At the least, you will have to rely on at least one other person to transfer stuff. Another reason to join a guild!

    Are you sure about that? What stops people from getting a house/freehold and give their alts permison to access the storage?

    https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Storage
  • flameh0tflameh0t Member, Braver of Worlds
    I like it. It makes sense, because as if a level 1 rookie is going to be a master blacksmith. That's ridiculous. You need level 50 to even be able to swing a blacksmith hammer hard enough to make anything decent. Level 1 rookie would have little stick figure unseasoned girl arms.
  • Wandering MistWandering Mist Moderator, Member, Founder, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    flameh0t wrote: »
    I like it. It makes sense, because as if a level 1 rookie is going to be a master blacksmith. That's ridiculous. You need level 50 to even be able to swing a blacksmith hammer hard enough to make anything decent. Level 1 rookie would have little stick figure unseasoned girl arms.

    Yes but a Master Blacksmith wouldn't necessarily be a Master Fighter, or a Master Mage. Any UFC fighter will tell you that it takes more than brute strength to win a fight, and any HEMA expert will tell you that hitting a piece of metal for Blacksmithing isn't the same as swinging a hammer or a sword in combat.

    Of course, that's if we were going for the "realistic" angle, which is a flimsy position at the best of times when it comes to video games.
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  • tugowartugowar Member, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    What’s the counter argument? “I want it easy and I don’t want to experience the real game. In fact, why isn’t this minecraft Gary’s mod”

    Virtue is the only good.
  • CaerylCaeryl Member
    flameh0t wrote: »
    I like it. It makes sense, because as if a level 1 rookie is going to be a master blacksmith. That's ridiculous. You need level 50 to even be able to swing a blacksmith hammer hard enough to make anything decent. Level 1 rookie would have little stick figure unseasoned girl arms.

    Except a Master Blacksmith gets that mastery by, surprise, leveling their crafting. The only lockout you should ever face is the lockouts that comes from insufficient crafting level, not any reliance on combat levels.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    tugowar wrote: »
    What’s the counter argument? “I want it easy and I don’t want to experience the real game. In fact, why isn’t this minecraft Gary’s mod”

    The default in almost all games on the market is that you do not have to level up your combat class in order to level up your profession.

    As such, it isn't on people with that particular position to argue their point - it is beholden on the people that want to see a change to present a point that is sufficient enough to warrant a change from that status quo.

    That said, my personal position on it would be that it is unwise to ask for something like this in terms of a game play style without also considering if the reverse would be acceptable.

    Would a game that required players to level up their profession in order to level up their combat class be acceptable? If the answer is "no", then you have to agree that the reverse is also not acceptable.

    Also, "real game" is not a concept players should use in such discussions. To me, the "real game" in Archeage was the farming aspects of the game. I found it far more interesting and enjoyable than the combat. Others enjoyed the PvP in that game, and so to them, that was the "real game".

    If you want to call the combat aspects of the game the "real game", that's fine - just be aware that this is only relevent to you, as soon as you say it out loud to another player (or type it) it ceases to be relevant.
  • flameh0t wrote: »
    I like it. It makes sense, because as if a level 1 rookie is going to be a master blacksmith. That's ridiculous. You need level 50 to even be able to swing a blacksmith hammer hard enough to make anything decent. Level 1 rookie would have little stick figure unseasoned girl arms.
    That's true.
    Mirror image.
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