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Mass scale combat - a Guild Wars 2 player wishing there is hope in AoC
Arctisavange
Member
Me and my guildies play a game called Guild Wars 2 (GW2) and ive been a player of that game for a very long time. The main attraction point for me and many others who play that game is mass scale combat called World vs World (WvW). In fact its practically the "last straw" that keeps people playing GW2 when they get fed up with everything PVE or small scale PvP orientated game modes.
The thing that makes WvW very unique is that its so far the only game that has mastered mass scale PvP perfectly. You have certain "buffs" on timers called boons which certain classes gives out with their skills. You also have specific classes that can strip those boons away and can even convert them into certain ticking conditions that if not cleansed, will add movement impairing obstacles or just damage.
You have classes that provide more group heals, cleanses, boons, barriers (temporary extra HP), DPS and so on.
Point being that there are so many factors that spice up the mass scale game mode and 50 vs 50 organized combat has been a regular thing since 2012.
These fights are usually lead by commanders- people who apply a visible icon on top of their head and everyone gets to see the person leading. Usually commanders and people following are also in voice channels that are player driven in all servers via discord or teamspeak program. In those channel commanders coordinate what to do - where to move, when to bomb, when to heal, what skills to use on X situations, what to focus on and the list goes on.
Heres also a quick example video on how the game mode looks like on a specific server taking on another server in a 70 vs 70 organized arena fight:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lGWL4mReqrg
The video is from 2018 where the class balancing shifted the gameplay more to ranged gameplay and in a big numbered combat, there is ofcourse more damage flying around which also makes melee pushes harder.
These days even in 70 vs 70, you can make melee pushes far more frequently as specific classes have been revamped, nerfed or buffed up in the patches over the years which made melee combat far more viable.
I do have to admit that you guys have given a very strong impression that the MMORPG PVE routes are going in the right direction within your game. But there is a very big player base interested in large scale PvP game mode who has not seen much promising mechanics for organized group vs group combat.
If you guys can implant something similar to what i typed above, then i can promise you that practically the entire GW2 player base will come into your game.
Will there be anything similar to what i typed or linked as a video above?
Thanks for reading and have a nice day.
The thing that makes WvW very unique is that its so far the only game that has mastered mass scale PvP perfectly. You have certain "buffs" on timers called boons which certain classes gives out with their skills. You also have specific classes that can strip those boons away and can even convert them into certain ticking conditions that if not cleansed, will add movement impairing obstacles or just damage.
You have classes that provide more group heals, cleanses, boons, barriers (temporary extra HP), DPS and so on.
Point being that there are so many factors that spice up the mass scale game mode and 50 vs 50 organized combat has been a regular thing since 2012.
These fights are usually lead by commanders- people who apply a visible icon on top of their head and everyone gets to see the person leading. Usually commanders and people following are also in voice channels that are player driven in all servers via discord or teamspeak program. In those channel commanders coordinate what to do - where to move, when to bomb, when to heal, what skills to use on X situations, what to focus on and the list goes on.
Heres also a quick example video on how the game mode looks like on a specific server taking on another server in a 70 vs 70 organized arena fight:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lGWL4mReqrgThe video is from 2018 where the class balancing shifted the gameplay more to ranged gameplay and in a big numbered combat, there is ofcourse more damage flying around which also makes melee pushes harder.
These days even in 70 vs 70, you can make melee pushes far more frequently as specific classes have been revamped, nerfed or buffed up in the patches over the years which made melee combat far more viable.
I do have to admit that you guys have given a very strong impression that the MMORPG PVE routes are going in the right direction within your game. But there is a very big player base interested in large scale PvP game mode who has not seen much promising mechanics for organized group vs group combat.
If you guys can implant something similar to what i typed above, then i can promise you that practically the entire GW2 player base will come into your game.
Will there be anything similar to what i typed or linked as a video above?
Thanks for reading and have a nice day.
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Comments
And in my experience there is nothing that can stop a well organised Melee train no matter how favored a ranged meta might be. Except for keep walls.
So as much as i like to see and am happy for people getting excited about AoC(i am as well) i felt obligated to call you out on calling GW2s WvW masterfully executed.
Anyway are there any staff members who can answer the thread as large scale PvP hasnt gotten much light shined upon regarding organized fights.
Not a staff member obviously, but the last few days Steven has done some interviews. One of them was with Summit1G en Shroud. In that interview he also quickly noted on the 250 vs 250 pvp battles (also sidenote: they are trying to expand it to 500 vs 500). And that there is voip in the game and like party leaders and stuff can manage that. No real details, but just the fact that he mentions that tells me that it's in their scope to give people proper instruments to give commands/communicate when you have large scale battles.
Hope it at least helps you a little.
Anyone correct me if i'm mistaken or missing something.
Before assuming stuff and degrading my comment you should maybe think before answering because now you look like a fool with your "yikes". I never said i stopped after 2 years or did i? I played on and off until 2018 if you want to know a precise date. Also the beauty about opinions are they are just opinions, you should remember that.
That's my contribution to this discussion.
Also, I heard Steven say they are looking at 250 vs 250, but also looking into expanding that to 500 vs 500. That's so much more than I would ever expect to be functional in an MMO of this scope with so much more going on for it.
I just don't see how it's possible to have a playable gaming experience with those kinds of numbers, but hey .. If he says it's possible, then I believe him. If it doesn't even come to half of that (125 v 125) that's still amazingly huge, and something I'd be both happy and impressed with. StarCitizen has just blown my mind with what is currently possible in that game, time and time again, so I'm getting used to the impossible being possible.
Hell, I'd even be happy with 50 v 50 sieges, that's 100 dudes, dude! Plus I'll be playing on (possibly) the single OCE server, so the population dynamics might be a lot different and filling up something to capacity could be rarer than on other servers. Dunno. Guess we'll see!
Participating in, and commanding large scale battles in Mortal Online was an amazing and very immersive and FUN experience.
First of all, naming ESO and DAoC as better than GW2 is kinda questionable. For DAoC many players, like myself, have way to romantasized vision on how the game actually was. It's old and couldn't compete with any standards we have these days. On ESO's hand (played it until the end of last year) the gameplay itself isn't nearly as fluid or strategic as GW2's is. Yes, it is a little more action based than guildwars, but what guildwars does best and which I haven't seen in any other MMO is the ability to connect the classes and their roles to such a working machinery where everyone has a job, which the player can identify and translate into group play. And that's a thing I've never seen in ESO once. It felt like: You're on your own.
Another thing that kills ESO as a competitor to GW2 is its horrendous lag. Yes, Gw2 has something called skill lag and it isn't fun playing with it, but oh boy I'd wish ESO only had skillag. Around prime time you would port around even normal maps. Cyrodiil we don't wanna begin with.
As to Warhammer Online I personally can't really judge, but from what I heard, the gameplay isn't as fluid and intricate as it is in guildwars for massive pvp.
Secondly, you actually accuse this guy of degrading your comment, when you did the same in both of your messages? You called him a fool for using "Yikes", which might be online speech, but isn't in any way harmfull.
And even before that, you called his views in a sense bullshit because you didn't agree with his standpoint. And I can tell you, that there is a huge difference between some pug in gw2 who joins a public from time to time to a dedicated player in a blob guild, which is again a big step to someone who played in a hardcore gvg guild.
So, next time, instead of writing opinionated comments that don't help, write nothing or contribute something helpfull, thanks.
so wvw is the only thing left that people do when they dont do the other 80~% of the game.
even though open world content is and always has been the most popular content in Guild Wars 2.
GW2's pvp scene, both wvw and spvp shrinks by the day.
this is either only talking about the below in terms of buffs and classes etc and ignoring the terrible balance that any content, not just PvP, GW2 is plagued by.
among zergs you will mostly find 3 of the potential 27 speciailisations though. that have no place in any top rated guild outside of filling numbers because a zerg of the previously mentioned 3 specs does everything just better.
nothing worthwhile has changed since 2012 kekw
normal people use the term shotcallers or raid leads
gw2 is a dead game that is still dying. it doesnt have a big player base.
BDO has more active players in pve and pvp.
if the entire GW2 scene from X region moved to AoC, it wouldn't fill 1 server's conccurent play limit.
furthmore, i say again that gw2 PvP is not its largest scene in any way shape or form.
a KEY difference between this and guild wars 2 is that in guild wars you can have a zerg of 50-70 people stack in the EXACT same tile. This is not going to be viable in any way, shape or form in ashes of creation. Each player's position will be impactful. players that are out of position will be spiked and removed just like GW2, but the scale of battles, size of battlefields, access to buffs, healing and backup will be VERY different.
GW2's combat is one of my personal favourites and have played on and off since release. but 'mastering' large scale, thats just false. straight up. GW2 COULD'VE been what you said. ANet chose to take it in a different direction though and the game being dead is the result.
https://inanage.com/2018/02/05/estimating-gw2s-population/ for a short read on GW2 being a bleeding title.
To keep on topic I'd list my pros and/or cons from the MMO's I've played from a PvP standpoint.
Ultima Online:
Pro: I miss the tension of battle because you could actually lose gear. It worked for UO only because gear was basic and crafted, without any special properties as compared to most of today's MMO gear grind. It would give you pause to where you went alone and where you wanted friends with you. Even to the point of planning escape routes out of areas if things looked like they were going to get hairy.
Dark Age of Camelot:
Pro: The Godfather of massive castle sieging RvR. Completely loved that fact that fighting for relics had at least a little impact on the rest of the game world, and also effected the opening of a raid dungeon within the RvR area in later content.
Con: I'm going to list this as a con for me, although this is purely opinion, the classes had their specific role and they wasn't a lot of variance to it. At the time I wouldn't have listed this as an issue, but this was normal during that age of MMO. Since then other MMO's have done this better, where a class could potentially be a few different roles based upon a spec.
A side note - the combat in DAoC at the time was fun, however it couldn't hold a candle these days to almost any MMO since World of Warcraft. It is just to slow and clunky compared to the new innovations that have come after it.
World of Warcraft:
Pro: I'm only listing this one for the innovation of combat. One of the first to move away from the standard Everquest, DAoC, Asheron's Call mechanics. Example: spellcasters not being completely rooted while casting or interrupted if hit upon casting, actual abilities that could be used on the run, the addition of abilities that didn't have cooldowns above and beyond an auto attack, etc. Was a great addition to the evolution of MMO combat.
Warhammer Online:
Pro: Body Blocking! Was intuitive at the time.
Con: I feel this one missed out on a lot of potential. My biggest gripes were the lack luster classes, and even the maps in general. For having such a fun mechanic in body blocking the didn't have many great map designs that could really use it.
Guild Wars 2:
Pro: Active buffs on abilities. In my opinion this alone made the combat in this game. Especially WvW. Position actual matters, knowing when to use an ability actual matters. No pre buffing for an hour - set it and forget nonsense. I have to agree with the OP that I haven't seen a massive PvP MMO do this as well before or after GW2.
Con: In terms of the world. WvW has no effect on it. No true immersion in the game itself from the PvP standpoint. It could be it's own stand alone battle royal of sorts.
If AoC can take from and build upon all of these things, similar to how most of these games built upon each other it should be a great system. From what I've watched and read I believe many of the developers have had a similar MMO progression as myself (us old guys who got to see all of these from the beginning), and if they can bring back some of the flavor and thrill of the old generation of MMO, with updated systems and combat, this game will keep its great following.
So I believe both of you are having anecdotal opinions here, because the PvE community in GW2 in my anecdotal opinion is far greater in population than the WvW population.
This is another opinion. GW2 is not that unbalanced. Sure there are some meta builds that pop up like bunker necro and such but overall the game is pretty well balanced.
This is also not true at all and is entirely your anecdotal opinion. I've never seen as big of a percentage of specializations as you are claiming.
This seems to be a straw-man argument, not sure why you pivoted to guild qualifications here.
It's laughable that you think this, and your bias is beginning to show more clearly. Outside of general WvW changes, I can instantly dismiss this ridiculous argument by stating in 2015 in the Heart of Thorns xpac, gliding was implemented, and in 2019 the Warclaw mount was added to WvW. Both of which had relatively significant impacts on WvW.
Another straw-man argument that adds nothing to the conversation in an attempt to devalue his opinions.
GW2 is not a dead game by any measure other than the false narrative that people who don't play it or who just flat out have some kind of grudge against it push. It may not have as many players as BDO, I don't have the statistics to prove or disprove that claim, but even if that's the case, would you really want to argue that when I could easily counter it with "WoW has more players than BDO, which means BDO is a dead game right?"
So this is just a blatant lie you're promoting just to yet again dismiss OP's opinion/argument. Even if we go by the link you posted at the end of your post, where it states very clearly they believe GW2 has "1.5 million monthly" players that is far, FAR more than enough to fill a server.
No part of your argument is mutually exclusive from his argument. In fact OP did not once mention the zerg stacking mechanic. No one in this entire thread has said that AoC needs to be the exact same as GW2, just that it would be nice if it took some inspiration from it.
And I've read through the entire article you linked and no where does it say it's a bleeding title. You can't just link articles and lie about their contents to fit your narrative.
Speaking of your narrative, it feels like you have some kind of bias against GW2 as much as you claim it's one of your "personal favourites". Instead of scavenging for random peripheral arguments about why OP's post is the absolute worst idea, how about you try and think about how the good parts of GW2 can be implemented into AoC? Absolutely nobody said we need to just copy paste the whole thing, perceived flaws and all.
I only played this massive PvP with strategic towers and siege combat in GW2 so I don't know how it goes for other games but I'll be reading through this thread. I hope AoC provides a way for me to be meaningful when I'm mostly working on fortifying towers and not too much into big blob fights.
I heard a bird ♫
The only thing Intrepid should take from GW2 is what not to do with combat because the only way large group combat can play better is if GW2 changes their entire skill and combat design.
Although GW2 dynamic combat is very superior to the majority of MMORPGs currently on the market, it does lack depth and it doesn't age well because of that.
I heard a bird ♫
You mean after 7 years of walking around the hanger there are still people who haven’t given up on sc scam?
Funny, I was going to list the 3 EXACT same MMOs you did
I think the problem Templar (and myself among others) have an issue with is, the OP used terms like, "mastered" and "perfectly". Using absolutes without playing all of the other/previous MMOs out there with mass scale combat is both ignorant / arrogant and ruins any credibility the OP might have been trying to establish. When someone uses an all inclusive term, it leaves zero room for discussion. Now if they had said something more along the lines of, "the best mass scale PvP I have played". That would better fit the OPs position and leaves room for others to add what they feel was/is the best one they have played without any hostility.
That being said, I have never played GW2 but I have played both DAoC and ESO extensively and disagree with some of what you've said about them.
First off comparing DAoC to an MMO today is an extremely unfair statement. DAoC coined the term RvR and it was the best there was for it's time. Its too bad DAoC2 was never made because then we could really see a true comparison. I'm not romanticizing anything either because I have been looking to re-capture the same feeling I got when I played it in other games like WAR and ESO.
You said that ESO felt like you were alone but I never felt that way myself. Even when I was solo and defending a keep everyone worked together to repel the foes. Felt very much like DAoC, especially when all 3 realms converged in a single area, becoming one big cluster ****. Now I'm not saying ESO was perfect by any means but from my perspective it was the closest thing to DAoC that I've played. Maybe it was the side you were on? I am full EP if that makes any difference. I also never experienced any lag while playing out in Cyrodiil, maybe this was a new thing after I left.
And you use the word "questionable" but then use hearsay to try and defend the idea that GW2 was better than WAR? At best that's a weak argument bordering on negligent. I personally played WAR and can tell you it was very fluid and intricate. If you want some personal experience with it, there is actually a private server running it now so you could go see for yourself