Greetings, glorious adventurers! If you're joining in our Alpha One spot testing, please follow the steps here to see all the latest test info on our forums and Discord!

Summoner endgame problem

AnubAnub Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
Hello everyone,

this might be a question targeted to class design team, but anyones ideas and opinion are welcome of course! :)

Anyone who in Lineage 2 played any of the summoner classes (I myself was a PS guy:) ) will remember the painful realization that eventually they will never be on par with other classes, because they summons didn't scale of gear, but of skill level only, compared to other dps classes which had dmg scaling of both gear and skill level.

I wonder how devs plan to address this problem in ashes, to ensure summoners are still competitive in endgame content when other players start to run around with best is slot gear.

Comments

  • Probably less of a dependence on gear seeing as it can be broken, or even looted in PvP if you're corrupted.
    Maybe summons will scale with gear.

    I have no idea. Good question!
  • mcstackersonmcstackerson Member, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    I'd imagine they would scale from the summoners stats, probably to varying degrees based off the summon. I don't think they have talked about how summoners' pets scaling off gear but they have mentioned battle pets (pets available to everyone) will take a portion of your stats so i'd imagine that they have thought about scaling for summoners as well.

    Probably a good question for the next Livestream. They will have one next friday. Keep an eye out for the QnA thread that should be popping up soon and ask your question in there.
  • Peon501Peon501 Member
    edited July 2020
    Summoners is spec for leveling. They should respec if they want to participate in PVE.
    Summoners only work in PVE if their minions are RDPS, and buffers.
    For example Warlock in WoW.
    And in PVP summoner minion/minions should be based on skills they use to stunt players and so on.
  • NamilNamil Member
    I hope summoners are a competitive option too, and especially fulfilling to play. Maybe they could employ the use armour/tools/items or even gems that you could give to your summons to empower them further depending on the type of summon they are, although that would be asking for a lot. I think it would be a neat idea to be able to gear up and progress your own character as well as your favourite familiar simultaneously.

    Maybe you could take power from dead creatures and give it to your summon if you're a necromancer or maybe you could create some sort of Build-a-bear Monster out of the parts of dead creatures you've taken?

    Maybe you could take the best part about each creatures and keep breeding them to create more and more powerful beasts to have by your side as a beastmaster?

    It might be difficult to implement some of these ideas and it might be venturing away from the class fantasy of summoning random powerful minions but it would be a pretty cool RPG experience imo.
  • NorseNorse Member
    Peon501 wrote: »
    Summoners is spec for leveling. They should respec if they want to participate in PVE.
    Summoners only work in PVE if their minions are RDPS, and buffers.
    For example Warlock in WoW.
    And in PVP summoner minion/minions should be based on skills they use to stunt players and so on.

    You can't really respec out of summoner skills, as summer is a core class. So if you want to summon, you are a summoner, and your skills will be based around summons. There's plenty of examples of summon/pet systems working both in PvE and PvP. Using Warcraft as an example, Fel Hunter and Succubus pets had among the highest player kill counts in the game because of how powerful they were in PvP.
  • Norse wrote: »
    Peon501 wrote: »
    Summoners is spec for leveling. They should respec if they want to participate in PVE.
    Summoners only work in PVE if their minions are RDPS, and buffers.
    For example Warlock in WoW.
    And in PVP summoner minion/minions should be based on skills they use to stunt players and so on.

    You can't really respec out of summoner skills, as summer is a core class. So if you want to summon, you are a summoner, and your skills will be based around summons. There's plenty of examples of summon/pet systems working both in PvE and PvP. Using Warcraft as an example, Fel Hunter and Succubus pets had among the highest player kill counts in the game because of how powerful they were in PvP.

    Yea I wanted to tell that.
  • AardvarkAardvark Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    You can't solve endgame problems for a class before you know what the endgame or class either one are like.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    This is a potential issue in almost all games with a pet class.

    There are three main ways I've seen it tackled.

    The first is to alter pet stats based on a percentage of the summoners stats. This is the easiest way to do it, as the pet gets stronger as the character gets better gear.

    The second way I have seen is for pets to have their own gear slots. This is significantly more fun for the summoner, but does mean they spend more on gear than other classes.

    The third is for the summoner to be able to upgrade their summon ability directly, so it summons a more powerful pet. This gives the summoner another upgrade path which can be annoying, but works well in games where all players have similar ability upgrades.

    Any of these three work, though there may well be other ways to do it as well. I am sure Intrepid will come up with something.
  • Song_WardenSong_Warden Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    In sieges Summoners can link together to summon a Golem (Could be wrong about the name), which will be very useful in PvP. Golem (if its the right name) will be a Summoners most powerful pet but it will be a shared pet. I'm more clued on Cleric (Hence my unsureness on the summoner pet names) and Bard (Little is know about Bard atm).
    2a3b8ichz0pd.gif
  • BobbyBickBobbyBick Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    I'm in the camp that likes how most MMOs treat summoner-type classes. Great for leveling/solo play but kind of mediocre in grouping/raids. Stat-scaling pets is a nice way to get around static strength pets becoming dead weight, but with how generally "safe" pet-type classes are there should be some kind of tradeoff.
  • George_BlackGeorge_Black Member, Intrepid Pack
    edited July 2020
    Ez fix.
    50lv summons skills upgrade.

    Also, nobody likes summoners for raiding. Why would I want my screen clustered with your 'friends'?
    You made to conscious choice to pick a class that is GREAT for ez solo or small group progress. Why should you be rewarded in all ascpects of the game?

    As a fighter I know I wont get a raid slot since archers and nukers can outdps me.
    I dont complain, Ill join the PvP group that guards the raid party from other guilds.
  • Ez fix.
    50lv summons skills upgrade.

    Also, nobody likes summoners for raiding. Why would I want my screen clustered with your 'friends'?
    You made to conscious choice to pick a class that is GREAT for ez solo or small group progress. Why should you be rewarded in all ascpects of the game?

    As a fighter I know I wont get a raid slot since archers and nukers can outdps me.
    I dont complain, Ill join the PvP group that guards the raid party from other guilds.

    This is... excuse the french, a pretty shitty attitude, in my opinion.

    And doesn't really have to be the case besides.

    First, in the majority of MMOs I can remember, melee dps outDPS'd ranged dps due to the danger of actually being in melee range. It's a balance of safety at that point.

    Second, summoner doesn't have to be pants-on-head levels of safety leveling. And besides that, with subclass augmentations, summoners could play as much a support role as anything else, leading to a perfectly valid raid slot.
  • FathymFathym Member
    This is such a weird thread. Literally no one has even played the class yet and you guys are already complaining about its place in the meta. Its a waste of time to make assumption about how the class will play based on other games. Save this kind of talk for once alpha is out and you guys actually have a sense of what the class's skills are. Steven has said numerous times that he is balancing the content around having a group of all 8 major archetypes. It would be best to assume that is how it will play out until proven otherwise.
  • AardvarkAardvark Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Healawin wrote: »
    This is such a weird thread. Literally no one has even played the class yet and you guys are already complaining about its place in the meta. Its a waste of time to make assumption about how the class will play based on other games. Save this kind of talk for once alpha is out and you guys actually have a sense of what the class's skills are. Steven has said numerous times that he is balancing the content around having a group of all 8 major archetypes. It would be best to assume that is how it will play out until proven otherwise.

    Does that mean the standard group size is 8? Lots of games anything more than 5-6 is a raid.
  • FathymFathym Member
    Aardvark wrote: »
    Healawin wrote: »
    This is such a weird thread. Literally no one has even played the class yet and you guys are already complaining about its place in the meta. Its a waste of time to make assumption about how the class will play based on other games. Save this kind of talk for once alpha is out and you guys actually have a sense of what the class's skills are. Steven has said numerous times that he is balancing the content around having a group of all 8 major archetypes. It would be best to assume that is how it will play out until proven otherwise.

    Does that mean the standard group size is 8? Lots of games anything more than 5-6 is a raid.

    Yes. He specifically said that the content is geared for groups of 8, 16, and 40(5 groups of 8) and everything will be balanced with that in mind.
  • George_BlackGeorge_Black Member, Intrepid Pack
    edited July 2020
    Ez fix.
    50lv summons skills upgrade.

    Also, nobody likes summoners for raiding. Why would I want my screen clustered with your 'friends'?
    You made to conscious choice to pick a class that is GREAT for ez solo or small group progress. Why should you be rewarded in all ascpects of the game?

    As a fighter I know I wont get a raid slot since archers and nukers can outdps me.
    I dont complain, Ill join the PvP group that guards the raid party from other guilds.

    This is... excuse the french, a pretty shitty attitude, in my opinion.

    And doesn't really have to be the case besides.

    First, in the majority of MMOs I can remember, melee dps outDPS'd ranged dps due to the danger of actually being in melee range. It's a balance of safety at that point.

    Second, summoner doesn't have to be pants-on-head levels of safety leveling. And besides that, with subclass augmentations, summoners could play as much a support role as anything else, leading to a perfectly valid raid slot.

    You are not excused. Your choice to feel attacked.
    Seriously, learn to disagree without thinking that some1 has a go at you.
    And no, brawlers (classes with PvP survival abilities and CC tied to dmg) aren't good dps, unless you talk about homogenized class systems like ESO, in which the devs toss a coin on who's gona be a good DPS every 3 months.
  • Ez fix.
    50lv summons skills upgrade.

    Also, nobody likes summoners for raiding. Why would I want my screen clustered with your 'friends'?
    You made to conscious choice to pick a class that is GREAT for ez solo or small group progress. Why should you be rewarded in all ascpects of the game?

    As a fighter I know I wont get a raid slot since archers and nukers can outdps me.
    I dont complain, Ill join the PvP group that guards the raid party from other guilds.

    It's not really up to you. If you think the raiding content is going to be as handholdy and toxic as WoW, as to even allow you to be like "No. You're a summoner, leave." .. You have another thing coming. With an attitude like that you will be targeted by everyone and their dogs (haha, get it?)..
  • You are not excused. Your choice to feel attacked.
    Seriously, learn to disagree without thinking that some1 has a go at you.
    And no, brawlers (classes with PvP survival abilities and CC tied to dmg) aren't good dps, unless you talk about homogenized class systems like ESO, in which the devs toss a coin on who's gona be a good DPS every 3 months.

    I never thought you were personally attacking me, nor am I personally offended. I'm quite capable of thinking someone has a shitty attitude without thinking it is being directed at me.

    Nor was I talking about ESO, I'm thinking more classic wow, where fury warriors and rogues are top dog by a huge margin, or EQ, again with rogues and monks as well. Saying "Fighter" doesn't specify that you mean a "class with pvp survival abilities and CC tied to damage," so sorry for not understanding your implied "bruiser" role.
  • Also, summons are not just a source of DPS. We've been told we can augment summons in many ways, a goodly necromancer has even been described as being able to have spirits as summons that heal and support party members. That sounds very much like something I would want in any PvE/PvP raid!
  • DiamahtDiamaht Member, Braver of Worlds, Alpha One
    edited July 2020
    Anub wrote: »
    Hello everyone,

    this might be a question targeted to class design team, but anyones ideas and opinion are welcome of course! :)

    Anyone who in Lineage 2 played any of the summoner classes (I myself was a PS guy:) ) will remember the painful realization that eventually they will never be on par with other classes, because they summons didn't scale of gear, but of skill level only, compared to other dps classes which had dmg scaling of both gear and skill level.

    I wonder how devs plan to address this problem in ashes, to ensure summoners are still competitive in endgame content when other players start to run around with best is slot gear.

    Post this in the dev stream thread. They may answer it on Friday if they see it.

    Edit: I copied it over for you in the discussion thread, maybe they will see it and get you an answer.

  • AnubAnub Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Hi all, thanks for all the input. Fun how the conversation exploded.
    I want to point out that @Healawin is correct when he/she says that it's too soon to discuss what a class's role in party/raid will be since we dont even know the end game design for content and classes will look like :)

    The point that I originally wanted to raise is that there were games in the past where summoner type of class fell of in dps in the end-end-game scenarios, either because of general lack of dps or utility, and I just wanted to know if there were already any ideas on paper how to prevent that.
    The argument that you picked a class and now have to deal with the fact that nobody wants to play with you is silly, and overall poor design in general, which really creates buff pet classes that nobody actively plays. imho.

    I agree this would be a good question for the next stream. I would assume that all of the classes have at this point a general concept that is in works, which devs could share.
  • Well, i recall either Steveo or Jeff saying that summoners are sort of jack of all trades kind of class and they can do a lot of things.

    I think there should be a reference somewhere about Summoner's Summons scaling from the players power, not the level of the skill or anything like that. So if a caster Summon scales from the players intelligence and wisdom stats or whatever then the more the player has and is stronger, the stronger the summon.

    I'm sure they will think of a way to make the class and it's most important skills (the actual summons) relevant in all parts of the game.
  • Yeah, it seems like a huge design flaw that summons wouldn't scale with gear/stats in that other game that I'm too lazy to scroll up and find out the name of.

    It seems really bizarre to me that such a thing wasn't fixed in a patch or something.
  • ZambarZambar Member
    edited July 2020
    If the summons are not default given summons, based on lvl and/or unlocked ability, but geatherable things i guess the end game would be competitive. I mean, if i can go around the world and make pacts with animals, souls etc to summon them as my own would improve the situation.

    The second thing is, based on secondary class. and what the Nodes unlocked would grant obtainable elit mobs. For necro a Lick, or DK, for beastmaster like a chimera etc...

    ofc I think for Spellmancer/ Conjurer you'll alwas be needed in end game for sieges. Based on the video revealed so far, there is a summoner type that can summon portable walls as defffens for the attacink side. I guess it's one of them.
    Also i think the Enchanter will be a support class with buffs for a groups, s if not a must have, but a valid support for endgame.
    As for the others idk yet.
  • Summoners utility will always prevent them from being on-par with pure DPS classes, because Summoners can just do more things better than a straight caster DPS, or Melee DPS can. Do I trust that SMN will be competitive? Sure, it's pretty clear at this point, that Ashes Of Creation is in good hands.
  • Undead CanuckUndead Canuck Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Well, since there is no 'end game' in AoC, this not an issue. The world will keep changing.

    There will be high level content, but that is just a scaling decision.
  • Peon501 wrote: »
    Summoners is spec for leveling. They should respec if they want to participate in PVE.
    Summoners only work in PVE if their minions are RDPS, and buffers.
    For example Warlock in WoW.
    And in PVP summoner minion/minions should be based on skills they use to stunt players and so on.

    That's just your opinion and not a good one. Everquest and Everquest 2 (specifically 2) did summoners right.
  • DamoklesDamokles Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Well, they said once that summoners would get the abilities of their summons in their hotbar.
    I would assume, that these abilities scale with your most prominent attribute.
    roaaztC.gif
Sign In or Register to comment.