The corruption system and multi boxing.

What will the policy be on multi boxing. I'm worried about people multi boxing and killing their own characters that have corruption to clear their corruption and to continue to PK lowbies/people that don't attack back with no penalty and gaming the system. Hopefully they will address that.

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Atama

You can’t possibly have first hand experience of “most companies” that sell gold. You clearly made that up,

Noaani

Atama wrote: »

You can’t possibly have first hand experience of “most companies” that sell gold. You clearly made that up,

Well, I cant say "most" accurately.

What I can say is that all that I have contacted have been NA/EU, and between them have sold gold, items and accounts on 14 different websites.

My observations are that it is 100%, but I opted to just say "most".

Atama

Noaani wrote: »

Atama wrote: »

You can’t possibly have first hand experience of “most companies” that sell gold. You clearly made that up,

Well, I cant say "most" accurately.

What I can say is that all that I have contacted have been NA/EU, and between them have sold gold, items and accounts on 14 different websites.

My observations are that it is 100%, but I opted to just say "most".

At best you can say that some are NA/EU, which is fair, and they aren’t all Asian. I don’t think anyone says they are, but it’s reasonable to remind people that those activities also happen closer to home.

Ravno

Two points :
- First, Multiboxers don't sell gold or accounts or stuff like that, that just pure fantasm. Multiboxers tends to attract player and GM attention, i didn't play any mmo where i didn't have at some point a GM who talk to me or made basic verification like messing a little with my characters to check if there is some form of automation. You basically play under Sauron eyes so yes, you respect the rule by the letter. That mean multiples things, to start, you have to register all account under your name, tos states that "Accounts are registered to you personally and may not be sold, traded, gifted", so if a multibox play multiples characters under fake/multiples names, he can be ban without any further investigation. From an account seller perspective, you can get that's not optimal to have all accounts registered under the same name.
That also mean than a ban of a account will probably spread across all accounts. So, from a gold selling botter perspective, there is no point to multibox, they just run multiples accounts playing separately and independant as bot, there is absolutely no reason to make them stick together, attract attention, put all your eggs in one basket and have they all ban together.

- Second, the only guy who play 40 or more account that i know is preparedwow (back in the days, there was also Sam Deathwalker, but he stop playing in 2015 and it was software boxing), i guess it's the true identity of Intrepid, and he is not someone who needs money (he just spend 2500$ just to play on the alpha). Btw, this guy is not really liked by the multiboxing community. I mean it's this kind of guy ( NSFW : https://bit.ly/3zJHlNQ )
The good new is that he drop playing wow as soon as they enforced the "no input broadcasting (software and hardware)" rules. Since it's the same here and LieutenantToast stated "our stance as it stands is that anything that maps one input to more than one output is a no-go (one keypress should be one action on one character)", there is no reason to think this guy will stick around.

That does not mean you will get no multiboxers, even without input broadcasting it's still doable to manually control multiples characters, but you will sometime cross path with dual boxers not 40 man-army (realistically not doable without broadcasting)

Noaani

Atama wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Atama wrote: »

You can’t possibly have first hand experience of “most companies” that sell gold. You clearly made that up,

Well, I cant say "most" accurately.

What I can say is that all that I have contacted have been NA/EU, and between them have sold gold, items and accounts on 14 different websites.

My observations are that it is 100%, but I opted to just say "most".

At best you can say that some are NA/EU, which is fair, and they aren’t all Asian. I don’t think anyone says they are, but it’s reasonable to remind people that those activities also happen closer to home.

I literally couldn't find any other sellers though.

When I was looking to sell my guild (not just the guild, literally every member of the guild, which at the time was the second guild in that particular game - a game that is no longer live), I literally looked in to every gold seller I could. When you are talking about putting something up for sale that would go for $45,000 (split with 50 guild members), you tend to get a phone call very quickly.

I *literally* couldn't find an Asian seller. I tried - as I know I could have haggled a better bargain with someone from China (experience in the matter).

Saying "most" was being generous, based on my experience. I would have been justified to say that for the week I was looking, literally all sellers were NA/EU. I didn't though, I opted to just say most, and I am quite comfortable with that - on reflection.

JustVine

Yeah but were you looking in english or were you using other languages to look? The internet is anglo-segregated as I am sure you know and you can't always trust that people are from where they say they are. Also different games have different gold selling populations.

To be clear with you the only part I disagree with is your 'most na/eu' statements based off ancedotes. The 'mostly/only china' crowd is pretty outdated stereotyping in this day and age. Way more complex than that. Sweatshop labor conditions and cheap labor aren't Chinese specific characteristics.

prymortal

The "Corruption" system wouldn't be so bad if they put thought into the game ahead of development & separated the Ganking, Sorry Corruption system from PVP.

Enable/disable PVP at log in screen, Zero penalties to pvp other enabled players, Literally gotta go to the log in screen to disable, Caravans e.t.c. areas auto scripted tp push players in/out of the PVP system so no new player fear of penalties.

Keep the Ganking system more or less as is, But keeps the ability to go a bit heavier on killing no flagged players in future.
GM's can easily keep an eye on the logs of people who flag up because that is where the Bots will be/Multiboxers too outside of gathering.

2 system, 1 justified punishment for being a dick, 1 more script to add to the sever with just a colour change required.
Literally the issue with MMO's to date solved without even breaking a braincell.

Noaani

JustVine wrote: »

Yeah but were you looking in english or were you using other languages to look? The internet is anglo-segregated as I am sure you know and you can't always trust that people are from where they say they are. Also different games have different gold selling populations.

To be clear with you the only part I disagree with is your 'most na/eu' statements based off ancedotes. The 'mostly/only china' crowd is pretty outdated stereotyping in this day and age. Way more complex than that. Sweatshop labor conditions and cheap labor aren't Chinese specific characteristics.

I went to every website I could find that was selling gold in any game, and worked out who the company was behind it - most companies sell their products on 3 or 4 sites, as it gives them coverage. A lot of players won't use a website that is being spammed in the chat of the game they are playing, and sellers know it. They spam chat to advertise the fact that gold sellers exist, knowing full well that those "smart" players are more likely to have buying gold on their mind if it is being spammed, and in order to "outsmart" the gold sellers, they will just google a different website when they want to buy gold, so as to not support chat spam.

I am mostly talking about one specific case I had where I had an entire top end guild to sell. The amount of coin we had on us was enough for a company to set up business in that game (on three different servers), so I wasn't restricted to looking for people that were already in that game (though sold to a company that was, eventually).

While it is true that the internet is somewhat segregated, I have a hypothetical for you. If you were a person that bought and sold gold for MMOs, and you operated out of China (or anywhere in Asia, for that matter), would you not set up a website to sell your product to a western audience if the game in question had a large western audience?

Since I went around looking for people that sold gold, worked out what company they were a part of, and then approached them to see if they wanted to buy a guild, if a Chinese seller were active at the time and selling to a western audience, then I would have come across them.

When you look at a company that operates four or five websites each of which appears to be your typical Asian gold selling website, offer them a massive payday and get a skype call from someone that is clearly from Boston (try and fake that accent...), and one from Liverpool, and one with a clearly Appalachian accent, and someone from France (I don't know French accents well enough to know which part, other than to know it wasn't Paris).

The week I was looking, I literally went to every site I could find that was selling gold in any MMO. Almost all of them had made an effort to try and appear Asian, and all of them had an NA/EU person at the top.

I get the hesitation with me saying that most are not Asian. It doesn't square well with what people see in terms of people selling gold in game using broken English, websites that look very Asian (and also very '90's) selling gold, farmers running around their favorate games trying to make gold, using that same broken English (not directly associated with gold sellers, by the way - it is cheaper for them to buy gold from players than it is to pay people to farm it, even with Chinese wages). People look at all of these things and think "Chinese gold sellers".

Problem is, that is what the sellers want you to think. It's marketing, and they are good at it.

Ravno

prymortal wrote: »

The "Corruption" system wouldn't be so bad if they put thought into the game ahead of development & separated the Ganking, Sorry Corruption system from PVP.

Enable/disable PVP at log in screen, Zero penalties to pvp other enabled players, Literally gotta go to the log in screen to disable, Caravans e.t.c. areas auto scripted tp push players in/out of the PVP system so no new player fear of penalties.

Keep the Ganking system more or less as is, But keeps the ability to go a bit heavier on killing no flagged players in future.
GM's can easily keep an eye on the logs of people who flag up because that is where the Bots will be/Multiboxers too outside of gathering.

2 system, 1 justified punishment for being a dick, 1 more script to add to the sever with just a colour change required.
Literally the issue with MMO's to date solved without even breaking a braincell.

I don't see the point of allowing to opt-out pvp and/or pvp death penalties, it's one of the core feature of this game, you are never totally safe.

For me, (and it's a personal opinion, i perfectly understand if that's not shared), i would have prefer to get rid of the combatant/non-combatant/corrupted system and use the same death penalty for every one, with a % of chance of droping gear (really low % for equipped gear to keep the fear but make it exceptional) and xp loss.

As for ganking, in my opinion, this is something that should be managed by players, not by an automated system. There is the ability for a node mayor to "Mark foreign citizens of other nodes as enemies of the state.", amplify that. Make the ability to design criminal, capture and judge them. Make them unable to buy things from official market place and shop and force them to use black market with a tax value way higher than regular shop (and this tax can go to the pocket of a thief guild or something like that) Allow citizen to place bounty on people (maybe with a system where city official have to approve the bounty, or the hunted have few hours/day to contest it to the authority)... make it driven by players, not just by an automated system. Right now, if let's say a group of people wants to act as mercenaries or guard for a mayor, they will face corruption for doing their job and execute mayor orders.

Azreil

Noaani wrote: »

Indeed they could, and people will.

But as I said, look at the other penalties.

Lets say you are minding your own business, and mean little me comes over and kills you. You make the decision to not fight back, forcing me to either stop the attack, or gain corruption (I still have that choice at this stage).

If I kill you, you die, and I gain a small amount of materials based on what you have on you. You can an amount of item degredation, and an amount of experience debt. This experience debt means you have slgihtly lower health, mana, skills, stats and gear proficiency, and need to gain experience to work it off.

Now, I killed you and gained corruption. While I have corruption, there are four major things I need to be aware of. The first is that if I am killed, I could drop an item I have equipped. The second is that I am less effective in PvP combat while corrupt. The third is that when killed, I will respawn in a random location rather than in a designated respawn location.

In our situation, I have a friend or a second account near by to kill me to remove that corruption. This is fine, if I drop an item, he can give it back to me. I respawn in a random location and then eventually find my way back to my friend.

However, the thing you are forgetting are the other penalties. I was killed in PvP combat, so I still suffer the same penalties that you suffered when I killed you. This is the materials dropping, item degredation and experience debt.

The only difference here is - I was killed while corrupt, and so I have those penalties applied to me at four times the rate you had them apply to you.

That means that if your items took a 2% hit to durability, mine take 8%. That means if your experience debt sees all your stats reduced by 5% and take you 25 average equal level mob kills to work off, mine is down 20% and will take me 100 kills.

This is the deterrent to this kind of behavior.

Nice write-up.

With all the cumulative penalties, the risk of losing gear and the painstakingly long time to remove a lot of corruption, it's never really worth running around killing newbs. You'll PK once in a while, just because someone is being an annoying **** or because the risk-vs-reward due to circumstance is in your favour. And sometimes it's just purely accidental...

Played a lot of L2 with a near-identical pvp system, and killing low-level players with your main is never really worth it. You could do it with a lower-level alt, but the easier it is to kill someone (because of level/gear differences) the greater the risk (more time required to clear the corruption/more valuable gear drop) and it actually makes it much less appealing. The constant gank-fest, which some people think is the inevitable result, will not materialise.

At most, I used an alt to kill of newbs at a low-mid area. But after racking up 20-something kills in one session, it becomes practically impossible to remove all the corruption unless you dedicate hours. Meanwhile, whoever I killed could just go somewhere else, and recoup their loses in like 10 minutes. Actually just gave up on the alt because it was too much of a hassle to remove all the corruption. So jokes on me, I guess.

prymortal wrote: »

The "Corruption" system wouldn't be so bad if they put thought into the game ahead of development & separated the Ganking, Sorry Corruption system from PVP.

Enable/disable PVP at log in screen, Zero penalties to pvp other enabled players, Literally gotta go to the log in screen to disable, Caravans e.t.c. areas auto scripted tp push players in/out of the PVP system so no new player fear of penalties.

Keep the Ganking system more or less as is, But keeps the ability to go a bit heavier on killing no flagged players in future.
GM's can easily keep an eye on the logs of people who flag up because that is where the Bots will be/Multiboxers too outside of gathering.

2 system, 1 justified punishment for being a dick, 1 more script to add to the sever with just a colour change required.
Literally the issue with MMO's to date solved without even breaking a braincell.

The ""Corruption"" system (yea, I'm putting your quotes in quotes) is actually well tested already. It was the basis for L2 which in my opinion has the best PvP system I've tried. It will not turn into a gank-fest. We know this. Because we've already seen it in L2.

Never being truly safe is a great feature that brings realism into game, and drives a lot of character interactions. In L2, the only safe zones where inside cities and, to be completely honest, I always wished that they weren't safe because it was such a weird arbitrary line. The (NPC) city guards, as well as any player in the city jumping on the chance of free loot, will enforce the safe zone anyway (although the guards could have had a higher dmg output).

And I'm sorry, but having a PvP opt-out is probably the worst thing you could do to the game. Fortunately, Steven knows this, so no need to worry about bad ideas such as yours being implemented.

If you want a game without player interactions, which it sounds like, maybe you should try out Solitaire.

Noaani

Odal wrote: »

fleshnbrain wrote: »

What will the policy be on multi boxing. I'm worried about people multi boxing and killing their own characters that have corruption to clear their corruption and to continue to PK lowbies/people that don't attack back with no penalty and gaming the system. Hopefully they will address that.

Hopefully multiboxing is a banable offense as it ruins the game. Especially farming.

Multi-boxing is allowed.

It was voted on by us potential players. It helps that Intrepid would have no real way to stop it without negatively impacting many other players.

The thing with people gaining corruption and then killing their own character to get rid of that corruption is that it isn't really avoiding the penalty. The main penalty for corruption is the extended death penalty you get if you are killed with corruption.

Gaining corruption and then killing that character with another isn't doing anything to prevent that factor of the penalty.

JustVine

Noaani wrote: »

Odal wrote: »

fleshnbrain wrote: »

What will the policy be on multi boxing. I'm worried about people multi boxing and killing their own characters that have corruption to clear their corruption and to continue to PK lowbies/people that don't attack back with no penalty and gaming the system. Hopefully they will address that.

Hopefully multiboxing is a banable offense as it ruins the game. Especially farming.

Multi-boxing is allowed.

It was voted on by us potential players. It helps that Intrepid would have no real way to stop it without negatively impacting many other players.

The thing with people gaining corruption and then killing their own character to get rid of that corruption is that it isn't really avoiding the penalty. The main penalty for corruption is the extended death penalty you get if you are killed with corruption.

Gaining corruption and then killing that character with another isn't doing anything to prevent that factor of the penalty.

It does minimize equipment and material drop risk though, which is a pretty big deal.

bloodprophet

From a bit ago.

https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/45151/poll-bonus-dev-discussion-multiboxing/p1

How is multiboxing botting?

Noaani

JustVine wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Odal wrote: »

fleshnbrain wrote: »

What will the policy be on multi boxing. I'm worried about people multi boxing and killing their own characters that have corruption to clear their corruption and to continue to PK lowbies/people that don't attack back with no penalty and gaming the system. Hopefully they will address that.

Hopefully multiboxing is a banable offense as it ruins the game. Especially farming.

Multi-boxing is allowed.

It was voted on by us potential players. It helps that Intrepid would have no real way to stop it without negatively impacting many other players.

The thing with people gaining corruption and then killing their own character to get rid of that corruption is that it isn't really avoiding the penalty. The main penalty for corruption is the extended death penalty you get if you are killed with corruption.

Gaining corruption and then killing that character with another isn't doing anything to prevent that factor of the penalty.

It does minimize equipment and material drop risk though, which is a pretty big deal.

Well, sort of.

As someone that does occasionally multi-box though, I don't really see it happening that much.

In order to have a chance to drop items, you need to have several kills worth of corruption. The other two things that happens with multiple kills worth of corruption is that you respawn in an unpredictable location, and you have more than one death worth of corruption.

What this means is that if you gain enough corruption to drop items when killed, the situation you find yourself in is that you can kill your corrupt character with the other character, and are then likely to find yourself in a situation where your two characters are some distance apart (a multi-bower is never more vulnerable than when their characters are apart), and one of them still has corruption.

While I fully expect some multi-boxers to get themselves in to this situation on occasion, it really isn't likely to be all that common.

Noaani

Odal wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Odal wrote: »

fleshnbrain wrote: »

What will the policy be on multi boxing. I'm worried about people multi boxing and killing their own characters that have corruption to clear their corruption and to continue to PK lowbies/people that don't attack back with no penalty and gaming the system. Hopefully they will address that.

Hopefully multiboxing is a banable offense as it ruins the game. Especially farming.

Multi-boxing is allowed.

It was voted on by us potential players. It helps that Intrepid would have no real way to stop it without negatively impacting many other players.

The thing with people gaining corruption and then killing their own character to get rid of that corruption is that it isn't really avoiding the penalty. The main penalty for corruption is the extended death penalty you get if you are killed with corruption.

Gaining corruption and then killing that character with another isn't doing anything to prevent that factor of the penalty.

I think they should rethink that then, why allow something as bad as botting. That is a really bad move. What do you mean impact players negatively? That's like saying banning bots is affecting players negatively?

Multi-boxing and botting are absolutely not the same thing.

bloodprophet

https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Multi-boxing

Ravno

Odal wrote: »

bloodprophet wrote: »

https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Multi-boxing

Nice So they are against multiboxing, good to know and the wise decision for a better game obviously.

They are not against multiboxing, it's allowed. But input broadcasting is forbidden, that will massively reduce the appeal of boxing and the size of the boxer party. But like i said before, you don't need input broadcasting to multibox, it just make things easier. Those committed to this playstyle will box as long as it's allowed, regardless of the efficiency. (I mean, i'm currently dual boxing new world, and the gameplay is far from boxing friendly)

JustVine

Noaani wrote: »

JustVine wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Odal wrote: »

fleshnbrain wrote: »

What will the policy be on multi boxing. I'm worried about people multi boxing and killing their own characters that have corruption to clear their corruption and to continue to PK lowbies/people that don't attack back with no penalty and gaming the system. Hopefully they will address that.

Hopefully multiboxing is a banable offense as it ruins the game. Especially farming.

Multi-boxing is allowed.

It was voted on by us potential players. It helps that Intrepid would have no real way to stop it without negatively impacting many other players.

The thing with people gaining corruption and then killing their own character to get rid of that corruption is that it isn't really avoiding the penalty. The main penalty for corruption is the extended death penalty you get if you are killed with corruption.

Gaining corruption and then killing that character with another isn't doing anything to prevent that factor of the penalty.

It does minimize equipment and material drop risk though, which is a pretty big deal.

Well, sort of.

As someone that does occasionally multi-box though, I don't really see it happening that much.

In order to have a chance to drop items, you need to have several kills worth of corruption. The other two things that happens with multiple kills worth of corruption is that you respawn in an unpredictable location, and you have more than one death worth of corruption.
.

Well your making an assumption here in it being unpredictable. It was extremely predictable in Alpha and I haven't read anything signaling randomness in choosing the respawn point om death.

daveywavey

JustVine wrote: »

Well your making an assumption here in it being unpredictable. It was extremely predictable in Alpha and I haven't read anything signaling randomness in choosing the respawn point om death.

"Corrupt players respawn at random locations in the vicinity of their death, not at regular spawn points."
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Corruption#Player_death

JustVine

Good luck with that then fam.

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