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When someone has feedback, can we stop yelling at them that it's pre-alpha?

FiastosFiastos Member, Settler
Intrepid is not going to go cry in a corner just because someone on the forums said that the combat doesn't look fluid. Even if Intrepid knows about the issue, it's within the rights of everyone to just say what they think, no need to be their knight in shining armor. Also, (for obvious reasons) there are a lot of new people that just found out about the game and are giving Intrepid the same feedback the older ashes community gave some time ago, that's also ok, sometimes it's good to repeat the same feedback.

Maybe instead of being a piece of shit just tell them in the comments "Yeah I think they know." or something like that, jesus guys. btw, I think people understand the fact that the game is in pre-alpha but maybe, just maybe, the reason there is a pre-alpha is so they can get some of this feedback. You will obviously have people that will say stuff like: "This game looks like shit." yell at them that it's in pre-alpha all you want but not the people that are just saying something looks clunky or whatever, give them a fucking break.https://youtube.com/watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ

Comments

  • LeiloniLeiloni Member
    edited July 2020
    I agree and something I've seen a lot both here and on the Discord, is any time someone posts criticism or concern, they're met with a horde of fans telling them the system in question is perfect and they love the idea, trying to shut the person down and avoid all useful discussion. The game is in testing for a reason, and soon to be NDA free at that. In order for it to be the best it can be we need to have these types of discussions. Games change as they are developed and systems get iterated upon. I'm literally seeing people defend ideas in this game that were widely hated in others and vice versa, so I think it's for the best if we all let people have open discussions instead of trying to shut people down. If a system is as great as you think it is, that will be seen in testing and in public opinion and it will not change, so you have nothing to fear.
  • LafiLafi Member, Founder, Kickstarter
    so i chat on these forums a fair bit, especially with the new people from a range of communities coming in to join us.
    the only time i've seen your point OP, is when people talk about classes, combat or things like animations. in which the reply of 'its pre-alpha' is the correct answer to give. simple as that.

    please link where its being done outside of these scenarios. i just haven't seen it.
    Twitch.tv/Lafidell
  • Lafi wrote: »
    so i chat on these forums a fair bit, especially with the new people from a range of communities coming in to join us.
    the only time i've seen your point OP, is when people talk about classes, combat or things like animations. in which the reply of 'its pre-alpha' is the correct answer to give. simple as that.

    please link where its being done outside of these scenarios. i just haven't seen it.

    You're kind of proving his point. He's asking people to be nicer and in response you're being oddly combative.
  • Wandering MistWandering Mist Moderator, Member, Founder, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Leiloni wrote: »
    Lafi wrote: »
    so i chat on these forums a fair bit, especially with the new people from a range of communities coming in to join us.
    the only time i've seen your point OP, is when people talk about classes, combat or things like animations. in which the reply of 'its pre-alpha' is the correct answer to give. simple as that.

    please link where its being done outside of these scenarios. i just haven't seen it.

    You're kind of proving his point. He's asking people to be nicer and in response you're being oddly combative.

    So, saying to someone "it's pre-alpha" is not being nice? I don't understand your logic at all there, sorry.
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  • Leiloni wrote: »
    Lafi wrote: »
    so i chat on these forums a fair bit, especially with the new people from a range of communities coming in to join us.
    the only time i've seen your point OP, is when people talk about classes, combat or things like animations. in which the reply of 'its pre-alpha' is the correct answer to give. simple as that.

    please link where its being done outside of these scenarios. i just haven't seen it.

    You're kind of proving his point. He's asking people to be nicer and in response you're being oddly combative.

    So, saying to someone "it's pre-alpha" is not being nice? I don't understand your logic at all there, sorry.

    It's dismissive.
  • Wandering MistWandering Mist Moderator, Member, Founder, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited July 2020
    Leiloni wrote: »
    Leiloni wrote: »
    Lafi wrote: »
    so i chat on these forums a fair bit, especially with the new people from a range of communities coming in to join us.
    the only time i've seen your point OP, is when people talk about classes, combat or things like animations. in which the reply of 'its pre-alpha' is the correct answer to give. simple as that.

    please link where its being done outside of these scenarios. i just haven't seen it.

    You're kind of proving his point. He's asking people to be nicer and in response you're being oddly combative.

    So, saying to someone "it's pre-alpha" is not being nice? I don't understand your logic at all there, sorry.

    It's dismissive.

    Ah so you want us to pander to these people? To tell them that their "feedback" is valid and good when they are ignorant about how games development works? Especially when they use that ignorance as their basis for dismissing the game? I've honestly lost count of the number of people I've seen (on various youtube comments, forum threads and discord channels) who have said something along the lines of "this game looks like crap, it's going to fail" blah blah blah.
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  • LafiLafi Member, Founder, Kickstarter
    Leiloni wrote: »
    Leiloni wrote: »
    Lafi wrote: »
    so i chat on these forums a fair bit, especially with the new people from a range of communities coming in to join us.
    the only time i've seen your point OP, is when people talk about classes, combat or things like animations. in which the reply of 'its pre-alpha' is the correct answer to give. simple as that.

    please link where its being done outside of these scenarios. i just haven't seen it.

    You're kind of proving his point. He's asking people to be nicer and in response you're being oddly combative.

    So, saying to someone "it's pre-alpha" is not being nice? I don't understand your logic at all there, sorry.

    It's dismissive.

    honestly i wrote a really long reply but i can't tell if you're just baiting.
    Wandering Mist is right. its literally about perspective. offering "this is how something should be done, change your shit now" feedback to a pre-alpha title is literally deserving of being dismissed.

    thanks for listening to my ted talk
    Twitch.tv/Lafidell
  • JamationJamation Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Like others have said the context of the conversation usually matters for those replies. Many times reminding someone that the development is in pre-alpha is a valid reply as many people might not have the information or the information may change later into development. But if everyone replaced "It's in Pre-Alpha" to "Yeah I think they know" then that doesn't solve the initial complaint as you're just changing one quote for another.
  • LafiLafi Member, Founder, Kickstarter
    Jamation wrote: »
    Like others have said the context of the conversation usually matters for those replies. Many times reminding someone that the development is in pre-alpha is a valid reply as many people might not have the information or the information may change later into development. But if everyone replaced "It's in Pre-Alpha" to "Yeah I think they know" then that doesn't solve the initial complaint as you're just changing one quote for another.

    very true, however i've been around the forums and reddit before the influx of new community members, havem't seen it once. nor have i been linked anything as proof either.
    Twitch.tv/Lafidell
  • JamationJamation Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Lafi wrote: »
    very true, however i've been around the forums and reddit before the influx of new community members, havem't seen it once. nor have i been linked anything as proof either.

    Ah sorry, I don't recognize your username so can't remember if we've been on similar threads. I've seen it maybe a handful of times where people have commented about the development state when it wasn't necessary, but usually they were fairly new to the community, or at least not the usual information gurus, as far as I could tell.

    Also, I doubt anyone is going to waste time trudging through the forums to find a link for an example for something like this.
  • Haven't seen negative comments, but it's pre alpha it's the correct answer.
    The long one is like "they're working on the core system". But in all honestly, there's plenty of information out there, problem is people are lazy and can't find themselves looking for an answer on the web.

    Also, there's people giving feedback like "no open world pvp, that's unfair", and they have no idea what the game is about.
  • Depends on the feedback.
    There is feedback - meaning constructive feedback/criticism.
    And there is stupid.

    One provides something valuable and the other.. doesn't.
  • HartwellHartwell Member, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited July 2020
    I think it's better to say that things will be tested in alpha or beta than to say it's pre-alpha. I don't think a lot of people understand what the different stages of development are for, so telling them the stage where they might see change helps. Alpha is used to develop systems. Beta is used to refine the game.

    You don't need to refine animations in pre-alpha when other things, such as swimming, could use animations for testing. I kind of get the frustration. It might be good to say that we'll get around to providing that kind feedback in beta or late alpha.
  • NodoffNodoff Member, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One

    Ah so you want us to pander to these people? To tell them that their "feedback" is valid and good when they are ignorant about how games development works? Especially when they use that ignorance as their basis for dismissing the game? I've honestly lost count of the number of people I've seen (on various youtube comments, forum threads and discord channels) who have said something along the lines of "this game looks like crap, it's going to fail" blah blah blah.
    Lafi wrote: »
    so i chat on these forums a fair bit, especially with the new people from a range of communities coming in to join us.
    the only time i've seen your point OP, is when people talk about classes, combat or things like animations. in which the reply of 'its pre-alpha' is the correct answer to give. simple as that.

    please link where its being done outside of these scenarios. i just haven't seen it.

    All of this. That is all. :smiley:
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  • CaerylCaeryl Member
    There’s a difference between “Hey, this combat looks unpolished and too floaty. I’d like to see more visual feedback and weight to my hits.”

    And

    “This art style looks ‘aisan’ and cartoony. It sucks.”

    Most people will listen to the first type of feedback, most people rightly see the second type as whining
  • DiamahtDiamaht Member, Braver of Worlds, Alpha One
    Some folks want the game to succeed so badly that a criticism will be seen as an attack, and will be responded to in kind. You really can't take it personally, it has nothing to do with you.

    For example if someone posts that they don't like character animations, it will strike a fear in some that the game won't be liked or successful. They retaliate by "defending" the game. Not sure there is much to be done about it, but there are communities where feedback gets buried by this form of insecurity. Not sure I've seen it to that degree here but the OP's concern is valid.
  • Wandering MistWandering Mist Moderator, Member, Founder, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    diamaht wrote: »
    Some folks want the game to succeed so badly that a criticism will be seen as an attack, and will be responded to in kind. You really can't take it personally, it has nothing to do with you.

    For example if someone posts that they don't like character animations, it will strike a fear in some that the game won't be liked or successful. They retaliate by "defending" the game. Not sure there is much to be done about it, but there are communities where feedback gets buried by this form of insecurity. Not sure I've seen it to that degree here but the OP's concern is valid.

    For some things I agree with you, but when someone says "the animations look stiff" or "the graphics are terrible", that is nothing more than whining born from ignorance.
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  • AtamaAtama Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited July 2020
    If someone says “the graphics have issues”, if the response is that it’s still early in development, I don’t see that as being defensive. In no way does that response refute the statement that there are graphical issues, but rather it acknowledges the problem while also reminding people that it should improve. It’s also not discouraging that feedback because clearly Intrepid would like to know what people want to see improved.

    If the game is late in development, and the graphics still have issues, then it’s time to sharpen the pitchforks and light the torches.

    All that being said, if someone explicitly says “the game looks awful and it will fail, you are all stupid for supporting it” then they are trolls worthy of derision. If someone has given honest input about some things they’d like to see changed, and the response is “it’s early in development stupid, stop whining” then they are d-bags that should be called out for it.

    I discourage anyone from extrapolating such things when they aren’t explicit though. Not all criticism is whining or trolling, and not everyone who points out the development status is being insulting or dismissive. Again, not unless it’s explicit.
     
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  • NagashNagash Member, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited July 2020
    Leiloni wrote: »
    Leiloni wrote: »
    Lafi wrote: »
    so i chat on these forums a fair bit, especially with the new people from a range of communities coming in to join us.
    the only time i've seen your point OP, is when people talk about classes, combat or things like animations. in which the reply of 'its pre-alpha' is the correct answer to give. simple as that.

    please link where its being done outside of these scenarios. i just haven't seen it.

    You're kind of proving his point. He's asking people to be nicer and in response you're being oddly combative.

    So, saying to someone "it's pre-alpha" is not being nice? I don't understand your logic at all there, sorry.

    It's dismissive.

    It's stating the facts
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  • DiamahtDiamaht Member, Braver of Worlds, Alpha One
    diamaht wrote: »
    Some folks want the game to succeed so badly that a criticism will be seen as an attack, and will be responded to in kind. You really can't take it personally, it has nothing to do with you.

    For example if someone posts that they don't like character animations, it will strike a fear in some that the game won't be liked or successful. They retaliate by "defending" the game. Not sure there is much to be done about it, but there are communities where feedback gets buried by this form of insecurity. Not sure I've seen it to that degree here but the OP's concern is valid.

    For some things I agree with you, but when someone says "the animations look stiff" or "the graphics are terrible", that is nothing more than whining born from ignorance.

    This is really the point right? Labeling the feedback as "whining" and calling people "ignorant" are adopting an attacking stance. You need to ask yourself why it's necessary, stop taking this personally. If nothing else, comments like that are good feedback for the devs. If they improve on these things the game gets better. Everyone wins.

  • Song_WardenSong_Warden Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    It is true some animations are stiff. Some animations are awesome. Some animations do need polish. Weapons are indeed rather floaty and appear from nowhere - Not good in terms of strategy, one would prefer to see what weapons a person carries before one commits to combat. To state its whining is a flawed approach because nothing is perfect and little becomes perfect without feedback.
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  • Disingenuous post, in my opinion. These forums are incredibly civil and polite, I am not seeing anyone get 'yelled' at for posting feedback.

    Posting things like "this is shit, change it or the game is shit" is not feedback or constructive. It's pre-alpha (brought it on yourself) and we haven't even had a chance to play yet, so the 'feedback' isn't really feedBACK is it? It's not being fed BACK, it's just opinions based on pictures we've seen the majority of which are placeholders or incomplete systems. You can't give feedback on something that doesn't exist yet.

    Learning to communicate your opinions is an important life skill for any child to master before becoming an adult. You can't go around demanding things, being rude and toxic and then when someone replies turn it around and say they're not response to "feedback" .. It's about the same logic as going on a public forum/social media, saying a bunch of dangerously unstable things and then complaining about the deep-state censoring you.

    You wouldn't hover over an artist as they paint/draw and keep reminding them their unfinished project doesn't seem right, and telling them how they should proceed, would you? I hope not.

    Wait for something to actually exist before criticizing it. Things like "the game looks unpolished" .. "the animations aren't awesome".. Yeah. It's pre-alpha. Those things haven't been worked on yet. Saying those things isn't helpful and understandably people will get annoyed at you.

    Opinions and feedback and hopes are all different things. Share your hopes, share your opinions and ideas, but feedback does not = I say something you agree with it.
  • Atama wrote: »

    If the game is late in development, and the graphics still have issues, then it’s time to sharpen the pitchforks and light the torches.

    Well at that point it would be too late to fix it. Nobody expects everything to look perfect now, but now is the best time to discuss things for the future because now is when things can actually still change if need be.

  • darthadendarthaden Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    I'll stop pointing out it's pre alpha when people stop acting like the current version of the game is exactly what launch will look like. I point out it's pre alpha because a lot of people seem to be confused on what a alpha is supposed to look like. All these games being ported over 2 years after launch in Korea have people thinking a alpha is supposed to be a near finished product

    Just to be clear though and I can only speak for myself here but when I point out the development state of the game I don't do it in a disrespectful way. I'm simply trying to point out why the games combat looks like it does at this point in time. In the end if someone isn't a fan of the current state of the game there's no rush to back it. Follow it if you wish, when/if the game reaches a point you become interested in it go ahead and back it at that point.
  • Sometimes the answer is simply "because it's still in alpha"...
  • AtamaAtama Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Leiloni wrote: »
    Atama wrote: »

    If the game is late in development, and the graphics still have issues, then it’s time to sharpen the pitchforks and light the torches.

    Well at that point it would be too late to fix it. Nobody expects everything to look perfect now, but now is the best time to discuss things for the future because now is when things can actually still change if need be.
    Agreed. Well, from now through Beta at least.

    But yes, my point is that if it still sucks by the time it’s too late to fix, then people absolutely will and should be ticked off.
     
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