Theory crafting

So as of now WoW devs identify siming and theory crafting as a problem, what do Ashes devs think about this, and what do you as player think about this, is it really a problem?
Since all of the solutions so far backfired.

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Cold 0ne FTB

I don't have any issue with theory crafting. It does take away of the immersion of the experience but it is a lot of fun and can lead to some interesting build diversity. As for simming, I am all for target dummies. Not as keen on using an external program to record and check parsing. Simming can be removed by barring the use of in and out of game metrics. Theorycrafting cannot be removed from any game that has any level of choice in what your build is.

HazardNumberSeven

From my perspective, it's always been considered a problem by players and devs... Even back in vanilla Everquest days.

Obviously not everyone agrees, and public opinion has shifted with the rise of gaming into the mainstream, where simming and theory crafting is more acceptable now, where as before it was treated more like movie spoilers.

I don't think there's anything wrong with a healthy amount of theory crafting. It's natural and what we all end up doing in any activity in life, not just games.

I think it becomes unhealthy for a game when it gets to toxic levels of, you needs this, this and this addon, this gear, this achievement and this itemscore or you're a worthless piece of trash don't even talk to me. That's only possible because of how HUGE WoW playerbase is and because they've totally removed any social-requirement. You can get away with being as anti-social as legally possible, and it will not affect you what-so-ever. Before acting this way in an MMO was suicide, you will probably need a name change/server transfer.

It's been said it is the developer's job to protect gamers from ourselves. We can't stop people from always wanting to be optimal, but we can build a world where healthy social interaction is more important than button-mashing.

For example, in Ashes, I don't think this elitism will be a problem to that extent because we're not dealing with a handhold-fest of grinding the same bosses over and over again in speed runs. There's so many playstyles, and so much of the game relies on teamwork, politics, economy and so many things.

If someone tells you you're trash because of some number .. Chances are everyone heavily dislikes this person. You could make it difficult for them in the game politically, you could rally people against them to siege their property or murder them, you could ambush their caravans, and everyone in your world inhabits your world.. Compare that to WoW where if someone is toxic to you, you can't do ANYTHING to them, and there is no consequence, they can just click a button and replace you with some mindless meter-drone and continue on their grind.

Noaani

Any developer that says they think it is a problem when the players of the game actually think about the best way to play it (which is all theory crafting is) really shouldn't be developing a game.

If a game develoepr is successful, any group of players that correctly theorize the best way to play a game should come up with exactly what the develoeprs intended. If they come up with something else, all that is doing is pointing out had bad the developers are at their job.

It is no wonder WoW developers would consider this an issue.

Wandering Mist

WoW is in a weird situation because it's got to the point where you physically can't sim or theorycraft in that game without third party tools. There are too many variables to account for, too much RNG and passives that go on in the background that it's impossible for a human to keep track of in real time.

So really, the issue of simming and theorycrafting is one that the devs themselves have created. Hopefully Ashes won't have similar issues.

winner909098

noaani wrote: »

Any developer that says they think it is a problem when the players of the game actually think about the best way to play it (which is all theory crafting is) really shouldn't be developing a game.

If a game develoepr is successful, any group of players that correctly theorize the best way to play a game should come up with exactly what the develoeprs intended. If they come up with something else, all that is doing is pointing out had bad the developers are at their job.

It is no wonder WoW developers would consider this an issue.

the problem is that if everyone knows everything, it would be an endless grind.

Wandering Mist

winner909098 wrote: »

noaani wrote: »

Any developer that says they think it is a problem when the players of the game actually think about the best way to play it (which is all theory crafting is) really shouldn't be developing a game.

If a game develoepr is successful, any group of players that correctly theorize the best way to play a game should come up with exactly what the develoeprs intended. If they come up with something else, all that is doing is pointing out had bad the developers are at their job.

It is no wonder WoW developers would consider this an issue.

the problem is that if everyone knows everything, it would be an endless grind.

Errr...what? How did you come to that conclusion?

Noaani

winner909098 wrote: »

noaani wrote: »

Any developer that says they think it is a problem when the players of the game actually think about the best way to play it (which is all theory crafting is) really shouldn't be developing a game.

If a game develoepr is successful, any group of players that correctly theorize the best way to play a game should come up with exactly what the develoeprs intended. If they come up with something else, all that is doing is pointing out had bad the developers are at their job.

It is no wonder WoW developers would consider this an issue.

the problem is that if everyone knows everything, it would be an endless grind.

I have to agree with Wandering Mist above, how did you come to that conclusion?

If a game is a grind, it is because the develoeprs made it a grind. If the develoeprs make it so the game is not a grind, it doesn't matter how much players know about it, the game won't be a grind.

winner909098

Wandering Mist wrote: »

winner909098 wrote: »

noaani wrote: »

Any developer that says they think it is a problem when the players of the game actually think about the best way to play it (which is all theory crafting is) really shouldn't be developing a game.

If a game develoepr is successful, any group of players that correctly theorize the best way to play a game should come up with exactly what the develoeprs intended. If they come up with something else, all that is doing is pointing out had bad the developers are at their job.

It is no wonder WoW developers would consider this an issue.

the problem is that if everyone knows everything, it would be an endless grind.

Errr...what? How did you come to that conclusion?

I feel that way because if everyb0dy knows the best possible build, they wont experiment, or try something new. It would make it so that noobs just go and search up builds for low levels, they dont go and do what I would, which is to try out combos. Too much knowledge will take away part of what ashes is about.

HazardNumberSeven

There won't be a best build, it's impossible. The game has so many areas of content, and classes are balanced around group content not 1v1, and around a rock, paper, scissors design.

No class can be the best at everything. Every class will have things it is good at, and things it is not so good at. That's intentional.

Noaani

winner909098 wrote: »

Wandering Mist wrote: »

winner909098 wrote: »

noaani wrote: »

Any developer that says they think it is a problem when the players of the game actually think about the best way to play it (which is all theory crafting is) really shouldn't be developing a game.

If a game develoepr is successful, any group of players that correctly theorize the best way to play a game should come up with exactly what the develoeprs intended. If they come up with something else, all that is doing is pointing out had bad the developers are at their job.

It is no wonder WoW developers would consider this an issue.

the problem is that if everyone knows everything, it would be an endless grind.

Errr...what? How did you come to that conclusion?

I feel that way because if everyb0dy knows the best possible build, they wont experiment, or try something new. It would make it so that noobs just go and search up builds for low levels, they dont go and do what I would, which is to try out combos. Too much knowledge will take away part of what ashes is about.

I've only ever seen one game where there was a best possible build.

Good game developers have no real trouble avoiding this. They add in variables and such.

winner909098

noaani wrote: »

winner909098 wrote: »

Wandering Mist wrote: »

winner909098 wrote: »

noaani wrote: »

Any developer that says they think it is a problem when the players of the game actually think about the best way to play it (which is all theory crafting is) really shouldn't be developing a game.

If a game develoepr is successful, any group of players that correctly theorize the best way to play a game should come up with exactly what the develoeprs intended. If they come up with something else, all that is doing is pointing out had bad the developers are at their job.

It is no wonder WoW developers would consider this an issue.

the problem is that if everyone knows everything, it would be an endless grind.

Errr...what? How did you come to that conclusion?

I feel that way because if everyb0dy knows the best possible build, they wont experiment, or try something new. It would make it so that noobs just go and search up builds for low levels, they dont go and do what I would, which is to try out combos. Too much knowledge will take away part of what ashes is about.

I've only ever seen one game where there was a best possible build.

Good game developers have no real trouble avoiding this. They add in variables and such.

I know, I just want to avoid stuff like it. Sorry if I was confusing

Noaani

winner909098 wrote: »

noaani wrote: »

winner909098 wrote: »

Wandering Mist wrote: »

winner909098 wrote: »

noaani wrote: »

Any developer that says they think it is a problem when the players of the game actually think about the best way to play it (which is all theory crafting is) really shouldn't be developing a game.

If a game develoepr is successful, any group of players that correctly theorize the best way to play a game should come up with exactly what the develoeprs intended. If they come up with something else, all that is doing is pointing out had bad the developers are at their job.

It is no wonder WoW developers would consider this an issue.

the problem is that if everyone knows everything, it would be an endless grind.

Errr...what? How did you come to that conclusion?

I feel that way because if everyb0dy knows the best possible build, they wont experiment, or try something new. It would make it so that noobs just go and search up builds for low levels, they dont go and do what I would, which is to try out combos. Too much knowledge will take away part of what ashes is about.

I've only ever seen one game where there was a best possible build.

Good game developers have no real trouble avoiding this. They add in variables and such.

I know, I just want to avoid stuff like it. Sorry if I was confusing

Blizzard are ok at making games, they are great at polishing products, but they have no real experience in developing MMO's. Even after 15 years of WoW, they don't have that much eperience in developing MMO's - because the people there keep moving around between projects so much that very few developers on WoW are ever there for more than a single content cycle.

On the other hand, you have a studio like Intrepid where most of the staff work on MMO's exclusively - many have been working on them since before WoW even launched.

Based on that, it is probably a good idea to assume that most of the stupid stuff in WoW won't be present in Ashes.

winner909098

noaani wrote: »

winner909098 wrote: »

noaani wrote: »

winner909098 wrote: »

Wandering Mist wrote: »

winner909098 wrote: »

noaani wrote: »

Any developer that says they think it is a problem when the players of the game actually think about the best way to play it (which is all theory crafting is) really shouldn't be developing a game.

If a game develoepr is successful, any group of players that correctly theorize the best way to play a game should come up with exactly what the develoeprs intended. If they come up with something else, all that is doing is pointing out had bad the developers are at their job.

It is no wonder WoW developers would consider this an issue.

the problem is that if everyone knows everything, it would be an endless grind.

Errr...what? How did you come to that conclusion?

I feel that way because if everyb0dy knows the best possible build, they wont experiment, or try something new. It would make it so that noobs just go and search up builds for low levels, they dont go and do what I would, which is to try out combos. Too much knowledge will take away part of what ashes is about.

I've only ever seen one game where there was a best possible build.

Good game developers have no real trouble avoiding this. They add in variables and such.

I know, I just want to avoid stuff like it. Sorry if I was confusing

Blizzard are ok at making games, they are great at polishing products, but they have no real experience in developing MMO's. Even after 15 years of WoW, they don't have that much eperience in developing MMO's - because the people there keep moving around between projects so much that very few developers on WoW are ever there for more than a single content cycle.

On the other hand, you have a studio like Intrepid where most of the staff work on MMO's exclusively - many have been working on them since before WoW even launched.

Based on that, it is probably a good idea to assume that most of the stupid stuff in WoW won't be present in Ashes.

okay, thanks

Nexmagus

Intrepid should be doing theory crafting in house now. In theory, (pun intended), if every class has very good utility and/or DPS within a few percent of each other, then the class you play is what you like. There will be some that will still want the 'top' DPS but I also want a class that I enjoy to play

Songcaller

Nexmagus wrote: »

Intrepid should be doing theory crafting in house now. In theory, (pun intended), if every class has very good utility and/or DPS within a few percent of each other, then the class you play is what you like. There will be some that will still want the 'top' DPS but I also want a class that I enjoy to play

This is why I'm an advocate for Active Blocks and Active Dodges. Character control is the better part of gameplay in my opinion. You might not be the top DPS but in PvP it won't matter because you can outplay the opponent. If its just a straight up DPS race then PvP will become stale and boring.

Wandering Mist

Nexmagus wrote: »

Intrepid should be doing theory crafting in house now. In theory, (pun intended), if every class has very good utility and/or DPS within a few percent of each other, then the class you play is what you like. There will be some that will still want the 'top' DPS but I also want a class that I enjoy to play

A lot of that depends on how hard and highly tuned they make the content. In WoW for example, mythic raids are so tightly tuned that even a 3% difference in dps can make the difference between success and failure. Faced with that it's no wonder that guilds only take the very best classes for each raid. Of course, the easier the content the more wiggle room you have when it comes to bringing classes that aren't the absolute best performers.

Songcaller

I can appreciate in terms of PvE you want DPS Races, but in PvP its not always a DPS Race. It would be nice if the Raids were like Wild Star Raids where you can't just nuke the bosses down without moving. Enrage Timers are also cool. Its difficult for me to respond and refute Mythic Raids because I have nothing but a Dragon to compare it to.

Mythic is indeed a challenge but Mythic is the culmination of many years of honing the PvE and classes and most of WoW is a cake walk which requires little to no communication at this point. Just listen to instructions and nobble the challenge. I had hoped we'd require communication, skill and armour attunement for Ashes Raids if the main staple will be crafted Armour.

Srdjan91

hazardnumberseven wrote: »

There won't be a best build, it's impossible. The game has so many areas of content, and classes are balanced around group content not 1v1, and around a rock, paper, scissors design.

No class can be the best at everything. Every class will have things it is good at, and things it is not so good at. That's intentional.

There will be the best builds for x class. You will see after a month or so when game releases, the best builds/skill leveling for pvp/pve will come out.

HazardNumberSeven

Srky wrote: »

hazardnumberseven wrote: »

There won't be a best build, it's impossible. The game has so many areas of content, and classes are balanced around group content not 1v1, and around a rock, paper, scissors design.

No class can be the best at everything. Every class will have things it is good at, and things it is not so good at. That's intentional.

There will be the best builds for x class. You will see after a month or so when game releases, the best builds/skill leveling for pvp/pve will come out.

https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Classes

Noaani

Srky wrote: »

hazardnumberseven wrote: »

There won't be a best build, it's impossible. The game has so many areas of content, and classes are balanced around group content not 1v1, and around a rock, paper, scissors design.

No class can be the best at everything. Every class will have things it is good at, and things it is not so good at. That's intentional.

There will be the best builds for x class. You will see after a month or so when game releases, the best builds/skill leveling for pvp/pve will come out.

Lets assume that is the case - but remember this is an assuption.

The best build will likely have some augments to abilities that require a specefic node type, that has a specific religious building and specific social organization building. It will also likely require your guild to take specific options that may not be best for the guild as a whole.

Now, if you need religious, social and node type augments to make this assumed "best build", you would need one node of that type at metropolis level, that has that one religious building AND that specific social organization building.

There is no guatantee that you will ever have that combination on your server - in fact, it is likely that you wont.

So even if (and this is still an assumption) there is one best build, that build may only be available to the population of one node on one server.

This is all before we factor in guild options, let alone the impact support classes will have on altering how things go.

There are going to be so many variables that no one will be able to point to a single build and claim it as the best for everyone, as not everyone will have access to all augments.

You may see people say if you have {this particular set of circumstances} then this would be the best build for you, but that is about it.

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