Group rejection

RoboRob

A little back story first, I am not a very social person, I am far from the worst player in the world. Early on in my WoW carrier I was running a dungeon with a group and we pulled multiple groups on accident. This had always be a guaranteed wipe, well with this group we survived because we had an amazing healer, which showed me how important of a role that really was and if you knew how to play it well then you could help the group handle some pretty crazy situations. So I rolled a healer and for the first few expansions that was my main role. In recent expansions Ive tried to DPS and be more relaxed but many times find the healers are just bad and if I have heal spells on that class I am always assisting.

I have backed away from guild play just because I didnt like the strict structure and DKP systems. I was loyal to the first guild that let me raid with them but they implemented an officer first loot policy which I understood the reasoning but ultimately it lead to me just losing interest in social play. I got shafted many times despite having earned the DKP just because the officer wanted the loot over me. Technically my main was a DPS but I only ever raided on my priest. Best part was when WoW transitioned from 40 man raids to a 10 man raid and they wanted me to heal, the only non officer in the whole group... Yea.

Anyways To the point.... I pug everything now, I have my own guild with like 26 alts in it, I am a pack rat so I basically just needed my own guild bank. Because I pug content I find myself nervous of messing up and under performing despite knowing I am still better than the average player. Contrary to popular belief I think dungeon finder and raid finder are the main things keeping wow alive. People dont understand the reason in adding those features was the number 1 unsubscribe reason was "Its too hard to find a group"

Im not saying I want a dungeon finder in this game but wow isnt just dungeon finder only. The last few expansions they have added mythic dungeons which require you to group the old fashion way. While it does have a dungeon finder tool its a custom system not an auto que. So you have to whisper the people and get invited. The best gear still comes from doing the social aspect of the game, running mythic dungeons and raids.

The problem I have with needing to be "social" if you will is that everyone wants the easiest path to loot. Why work harder and have something take 45-90 minutes when we can do it in 30-70.

The "social" element of WoW now is "must have 475 ilvl or higher" for example to run a dungeon that will drop 430 ilvl loot or "link achievement to prove you have beaten this raid on mythic" to prove you already know the fights and they dont have to explain anything or carry you. No one wants to have to put in effort, even if youve researched the content.... which I always preferred just to learn from experiencing it, thats not enough.... I gotta have the achievement to prove I know whats up. I havent engaged in any of this content at all because I find this need to prove myself or to be out geared of the content I am trying to clear to be disgusting. Its not fun running stuff like that. Mythic+ dungeons are also basically time trials its rush rush gotta beat the ticking clock, which some people find fun but I think that also leads to negative situations like in one of the few mythic+ i did the healer had to afk for family reasons at the last boss, he didnt come back for 45 minutes, well had to kill the last boss to get any loot at all so we definitely failed the timer but I didnt want to walk away with nothing. I had a healing off spec but system didnt allow role changes. Just part of the flawed system that disgusts me but thats why people have strict rules about who they want to take.

I understand MMOs are social games but a lot of people just love the game and the world but dont want to deal with the guild drama that can happen. So if I were to try and experience this game as a "free agent" if you will then how hard is it going to be for me to find a group? Am I going to be rejected for not having the best gear or not being able to link an achievement? Basically LFD and LFR are king in wow because while you can get kicked from those groups most people accept that it is what it is so unless your AFK or the worst player in the world you will always be able to get the content done.

akabear

See it no different to other games that do not (did not) have group finders.
Just a matter of shouting in local, world chat for a group.

That being said, I do prefer to have a group finder capacity.

Samson

Well the good thing about AoC is that when the game releases, everyone is going to be in the same boat. Everyone will be new to the game and everyone will have limited knowledge and experiencing things for the first time. I doubt you will have difficulty finding a group or being rejected because of the gear you are wearing or because you don't have a particular achievement.

A few years ago, I tried to get back into WoW after taking a LONG break (since Burning Crusade)... I found that everything was rushed and no one wanted to take their time through various dungeons and raids, so I can see where you're coming from in that respect.

Netory

Like in any other games that don't have group finder It won't take long for player run websites dedicated to group finding to start popping up. So it'll be a nice divide between people using an app or a website and people trying to socialize and group up in game.

GoaB

I respectfully disagree with your opinion. Although I do see where you are coming from, I think that MMOs should inherently REQUIRE human interaction. We have so many options of single player / co-op based games now days. So many..... People that do not wish to participate in such interactions have tons of options. On the other hand, for those of us that do want the social aspect to be within the fabric of the game - options are limited to pretty much the MMOs. Not to mention that 95% of today's MMOs are so simplified that all you have to do is click a damn button. We NEED a game with no group finder.

However, I think I have a compromise.

I think that a good midway point would be an introduction of real-space bulletin boards in town centers. This could certainly be ironed out by the devs, but the idea is that there is a limited amount of space on the board, and people can post their advertisements for a limited time. This could also be limited to one ad per account in order to prevent spamming. This could also be divided into 2 tabs one for individuals and one for guilds. You wouldn't want guilds to take up all the space.

The space also shouldn't be free, but not overpriced either. So auction system probably wouldn't work. Just a flat fee and immediate posting. I think RPers would love this option as well.

Alizee

If it makes you feel any better my group rejects all those who aren't hardcore and proficient at PVP.

Genaro

Yeah, people who are strongly against some kind of feature such as group finder/LFR love to romanticize how MMOs are supposed to be social, but the raw reality is that, nowadays, most of people don't give two shits about others and just want to get the content done for the loot, in general. Independent of the MMORPG.

With or without a group finder system, people will inspect your character so they can have some kind of measurement of how 'good' you are. It is kinda fair from a competitive point of view, but, It can be very harmful when you extent this behavior to all types of players.

I think that is a delicate topic that none type system/feature of a game can solve, but, ultimately, only the PLAYERS themselves can, by building a healthy community from the start. You see communities like in FFXIV and GW2 being a lot more tolerant for this kind of situation of acceptance/rejection, and that's not because the content of these games are easier, compared to other games, by any means. It's because the community itself, in general, composed by many refugees and people tired of other toxic games, embrace the players who are still learning and/or are not super good at the game. Meanwhile, in MMOs like WoW, which in the past years have been designed to attend the top performers of the player base, allowing many types of external resources to optimize all the possible combinations for a given character, reinforcing the extreme competitive behavior which is dictated by the elitist part of the gamers, the acceptance/rejection is very low/high. It practically a hypocrisy a WoW player who don't want the LFR/group finder system because they want the game to be more social, but still will only play if you are X class, Y race and Z spec/ilvl/etc.

In the beginning of any game, including Ashes, it's the honey moon phase. Everyone will learn together how to overcome the challenges, how to be better at something, etc. After this phase, people will know the optimized paths for dungeons/character build/professions/etc and, again, with or without a group finder system, what will dictate the path that game will take, a friendly or a toxic community, will depend only on the players themselves, with a small influence of Inteprid reinforcing this type behavior or not.

Niraada

I'm pretty firmly opposed to group finders. Since we're speaking about WoW, I'll throw a bit of mine in too.

My experience in WoW transformed when group finders were added. Prior to group finders being a thing, I met and got to know a bunch of different people, made some great friendships that lasted for years, and kept me coming back to the game.

When groupfinder released, I certainly appreciated the convenience of it, but over time, I interacted with other players less, made new friends less, and for me, as well as a lot of the friends I already played with, we all had much less reason to organise and do content together.

Now, that happened over a long period of time, but I honestly believe the cons outweigh the pros.

Steven has already said that Ashes has things to offer you if you want to go it alone. I don't know that I feel that undermining the social aspect of the game is worth it to accommodate people who are opposed to social experiences.

Ultimately, you're the one choosing to exclude yourself from joining a larger community, no matter what your history may be. Part of that choice is the consequences and frustrations that result from it.

Kevin Jordan (one of the original WoW Devs) said that if you don't force players to be social, if you don't give them an incentive to group together, it won't happen. It's just human nature.

If choosing to isolate yourself is going to prevent you from reaching your goals, then in my opinion, either your goals need to change or your approach does, my friend.

And if you're not interested in a social experience... well I think that covers most group content by definition.

That being said, if you're after the party experience without personal interaction, I personally really enjoyed Pillars of Eternity 2. Maybe give that a try?

Noaani

RoboRob wrote: »

Im not saying I want a dungeon finder in this game but wow isnt just dungeon finder only.

the Dungeon finder is the single worst thing Blizzard unleashed on to the MMO world.

That is coming from someone that is on record numerous times on these forums as to my level of disdain for both WoW and Blizzard in general (the only thing they do well is polish - their games are polished to a much higher degree than any other company, but the whole proverbial turd thing and all...).

I'll tell you the way I expect finding groups to work for a player like you, so that you can decide if it is something you are up for or not.

For the first several months, all groups you get will be people in chat looking for more players to run - what ever.

These will be standard pick up groups, some will be successful, some will not. Some people may blame you, some may not - but that is actually unimportant at this point.

Now, in these first few months, if you do decide this is something that would suit you well, I suggest taking as many of these groups as you are able to take. If you are not doing something specific and important, and someone is asking for people to fill out a group that you would be suited to, take the spot. When you come across a player that you enjoy grouping with, add them to your friends list.

The reason for this is because after about 4 or 5 months, those groups looking for more people in chat channels will become less and less common. There will be days where you won't even see a single group looking for someone to fill a role that you could fill.

This isn't due to less players, or to less group content being run, it is due to players having found people they like to hang out with, who play the game in a similar manner to them, and who have similar play times to them. After a while, rather than looking for random people to fill groups up, people turn instead to their friends list. By the time the game is 4 months old, the only people still trying to fill group spots in public chat are people that have exhausted their friend options.

What this means is that after a few months, you'll likely end up grouping up with the same people more and more often. When you do join a pick up group, there is a high chance that you will see a familiar name in the group. If you are indeed as good a healer as you say, and if you roll a healer, you are likely to even feature on many players friends lists, and may find you are getting whispered group invites more and more often.

Now, from your perspective, the good part of this is that if you group up with the same people over and over again, they will know that you are a good player. When people know the player, they care much less about the gear, or about whether you have taken on the content or not.

The potential down side for you is that this is kind of a form of socializing.

This whole aspect of getting to actually know the players on your server due to running content with them is what Blizzard killed when they added the Dungeon Finder. Players that have only played WoW in the last 5+ years have either completely forgotten - or indeed never even knew - how much better it is to know the people around you rather than always grouping with complete strangers every time.

nidriks

The game that got me addicted to MMOs was good old Everquest. Everquest had no group finder, yet itw as a social paradise. I have more happy memories of good groups and amazingly fun sessions of play from Everquest than I do any other MMO. Only Everquest 2 comes close to the social experience I had in Everquest.

You will meet people that are obtuse when it comes to who they want in their group, and even Everquest had that from time to time. It is more a late game problem though. Early game there's going to be so little difference between any two players that you'll find groups no problem.

Saying that, MMOs have moved on a little from Everquest, and that is in terms of guilds. Guilds that started in games like Everquest have moved on together and now they start MMOs together. Finding a good guild can really be a blessing in MMOs now. Find the right guild and you can be happy.

I'm getting from your post that you , at least to some extent, associate guilds with hardcore raiding or PvP. That's not the case though. There are many, many social guilds out there that would love a good player like yourself. Someone who will heal if need be, but don't associate that with them not letting you play what you want.

I'm not a social person. I'm far from it in fact. In real life I'm incredibly anxious in social settings. I am a member of a great guild though, and online I feel much more comfortable. Find the right guild and it can make Ashes a fantastic experience for you.

Have a look in guild recruitment and see what you can find. If you're not already then I'd suggest signing up to Discord and joining the Ashes channel.

Also, don't worry about a lack of group finder. Groups will happen. The game will also be better for promoting a social atmosphere through people having to communicate to get somewhere.