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Dynamic boss difficulty=risk vs reward

Potato BasketPotato Basket Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited July 2020 in General Discussion
I would like to see the concept of dynamic difficulty implemented for instanced/raid/world bosses

If the boss successfully kills a player this triggers more challenging mechanics, for example, it allows him to spawn minions which he wouldn't do otherwise

To take this a step further this mechanic can depend on the archetype of such killed player, if it's a tank the boss now gets an armor of some sort, if it's a healer he gets healed as if he drank the player's blood/potions, if it's a dps he gets a buff and deals more damage

There's endless variables you can incorporate such as the gear of the players

For example, if you as the dps role wearing a specific rare set with a bonus elemental damage which the boss is weak to, in case you die the boss gains such set effects to his damage or no longer weak to such element

Now there's a consideration whether to bring your rare gear to make the fight easier but also riskier if you die and make it more difficult for everyone else=risk vs reward

In general, this will incorporate the challenge and difficulty onto the selected party by pretty much relying on the weakest links of the party=meaningful choices

EDIT:

I'm not suggesting it to replace the current design but in addition

I'm sure there's plenty enough content so they can mix things up, also don't forget post launch

I guess it would make more sense for the end game type of content where you expected to execute everything perfectly otherwise it will spin out of control real quick which makes it more interesting in my opinion

I like the existing design, I think it will work great for instanced or normal type of content compared to the suggested concept which is more hardcore

Comments

  • Song_WardenSong_Warden Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Raids will be adjusted based on prerequisites of the previous boss. Killed the first boss quick? Second boss is tougher etc.
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  • AardvarkAardvark Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Neurath wrote: »
    Raids will be adjusted based on prerequisites of the previous boss. Killed the first boss quick? Second boss is tougher etc.

    What happens when your group stomps boss A while a seprate group due to it not being instanced takes like 2hrs and 10 wipes on boss B is the next boss going to be scaled up because of your group or down because that other group that sucks won't go away?
  • Song_WardenSong_Warden Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    You bring up a valid point Aardvark. I think in such circumstances the second raid would either kill the boss while the first raid travels back to the boss or the superior raid will PvP the weaker raid. A very interesting slant you've stated which made me expand my considerations lol
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  • wArchAngelwArchAngel Member
    edited July 2020
    As you said, its not instanced, how did group B even got to boss B before you, when you were the one to clear boss A, let alone stomp it in no time.
    In the case you describe, group B wont even have an attempt at the boss, as group A will just venture deeper and procceed to slam dunk boss B. Now if group B nuked boss A in no time, and then failed numerous times on boss B, thats where you can raise the question what happens when group A leaves, is the boss on a timer before it goes on reset mode it recalculcate his values depending on Boss A, or is it going to sit there until killed/server restarted.

    If there is a case when group B is parked on boss B spawn(not sure if its even possible), and group A stomps boss A in no time, and group B immediately proceeds to attack boss B, but fails miserably multiple times like you described until group A arrives, nothing stops group A from just outdpsing the boss, or wiping group B out of there, since they are clearly more geared or better coordinated.
  • AardvarkAardvark Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited July 2020
    wArchAngel wrote: »
    As you said, its not instanced, how did group B even got to boss B before you, when you were the one to clear boss A, let alone stomp it in no time.

    if you watched the stream you would have seen the dungeon is huge and doesn't have to be done in order. You could have 4 groups in there at the same time and not even know unless they were looking for each other
  • LoyhetaLoyheta Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited July 2020
    They are planning on dynamic fights. Your suggestion seems completely opposite from the way they plan to implement it.

    The way they are planning is that the encounters get more difficult mechanically the more successfully you perform. This is to increase the reward for increasing the risk. Your suggestion seems to make it harder for doing worse. For the boss to get buffs based on what it kills. This would seemingly make it spiral out of control. If you are having a hard enough time that one of your members die, buffing the boss is only going to make it harder.

    I can see what you are suggesting but I think the planned method is more targeted and the closest thing to rewarding skill that I've seen. So if a boss spawns more adds it should be because the previous boss was killed fast rather than for the previous boss killing x amount of dps.

    If I would change your idea, I'd have the boss have buffs based to counter the comp. The more healers the party has, the more aoe damage it should do; the more tanks, the more armor pen/ adds; the more dps, the more self healing/faster rage timer. This way the boss is overcoming the party's cheesy mechanics. Then again this could be manipulated.
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  • Aardvark wrote: »
    wArchAngel wrote: »
    As you said, its not instanced, how did group B even got to boss B before you, when you were the one to clear boss A, let alone stomp it in no time.

    if you watched the stream you would have seen the dungeon is huge and doesn't have to be done in order. You could have 4 groups in there at the same time and not even know unless they were looking for each other

    Sorry for not making my point clear, i've edited the messaged to represents my process of thoughts slightly better.
  • Potato BasketPotato Basket Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    @Aardvark @wArchAngel @loyheta @Neurath

    I'm not suggesting it to replace the current design but in addition to it

    I'm sure there's plenty enough content so they can mix things up, also don't forget post launch

    I guess it would make more sense for the end game type of content where you expected to execute everything perfectly otherwise it will spin out of control real quick which makes it more interesting in my opinion

    I like the existing design, I think it will work great for instanced or normal type of content compared to the suggested concept which is more hardcore
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    I can't see how this kind of thing would even be possible with open raid dungeons - it does make me wonder if this mechanic is only expected to be applied to the 20% of so of instanced content the game is supposed to have.

    My question would be - in an open dungeon, what happens if raid A pulls a boss, and while they are fighting that, raid B goes past them and gets to the next boss?

    Raid B could be fighting the second boss before raid A has finished with the first. Raid A may even wipe on the first boss, meaning raid B will be taking on the second boss while the first boss is still there.

    Also, the dungeons in Ashes are supposed to be non-linear, meaning there isn't supposed to be a "first" boss and a "second" boss.

    Honestly, the whole concept doesn't really seem to work outside of instanced content.
  • FiiaFiia Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Will raidbosses have one-hit-mechanics, too? And enrage? That'd be really interesting to know. It would be awesome if they did.
  • Song_WardenSong_Warden Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    I have not seen it in action. I can only go by the stated intent. I do not think the majority of raids if any at all will be instanced. If we also have scalability the deeper we go then it also implies a sequential structure.

    There will always be a first boss, a second boss etc. Whether it is always the same bosses and order of skills is debatable. It isnt me suggesting bosses will become more difficult dependant on previous performance. In terms of tags it would be easier to implement rather than basing it off DPS. It is also not clear how they will stop multiple raids hitting bosses at the same time (from the same guild). It wouldn't matter which raid would kill it, the same guild would get the loot.
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  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    Neurath wrote: »
    It is also not clear how they will stop multiple raids hitting bosses at the same time (from the same guild). It wouldn't matter which raid would kill it, the same guild would get the loot.
    There are no plans that have been made public to prevent this, which is why I am somewhat convinced there will need to be at least some instanced raid content.

  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    Fiia wrote: »
    Will raidbosses have one-hit-mechanics, too? And enrage? That'd be really interesting to know. It would be awesome if they did.

    Enrage timers are probably the worst thing to be introduced to raids since - well, ever.

    There are much better ways to implement DPS checks.
  • Song_WardenSong_Warden Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    If we make instanced raids then people can farm mats and other loot without the possibility to be disturbed or prevented. Such content would be farmed and in a PvX game it would offer ridiculous advantages. I'm not against instanced raids but legendries or legendary materials shouldn't drop in an instanced raid.

    Sometimes I feel Ashes is too ambitious. Sometimes I feel Ashes concepts cant work together. I will be relieved when NDA lifts and we can discuss actual game dynamics rather than theories lol
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  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    Neurath wrote: »
    If we make instanced raids then people can farm mats and other loot without the possibility to be disturbed or prevented. Such content would be farmed and in a PvX game it would offer ridiculous advantages. I'm not against instanced raids but legendries or legendary materials shouldn't drop in an instanced raid.
    I agree in principle, though I am also not that keen on the best items in the game having key materials from encounters that can be cheesed simply by adding more and more people to the situation.

    In terms of ways to prevent players farming instances, Intrepid simply need to find a way to apply a lockout that works in with the systems in Ashes.

    If people can only run a raid instance once per week, it is hard to farm it to excess.
  • AardvarkAardvark Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited July 2020
    Neurath wrote: »
    If we make instanced raids then people can farm mats and other loot without the possibility to be disturbed or prevented. Such content would be farmed and in a PvX game it would offer ridiculous advantages. I'm not against instanced raids but legendries or legendary materials shouldn't drop in an instanced raid.

    Sometimes I feel Ashes is too ambitious. Sometimes I feel Ashes concepts cant work together. I will be relieved when NDA lifts and we can discuss actual game dynamics rather than theories lol

    As in the other thread lockout timers fix the farm every thing worry and I find it interesting you would only be ok with instanced raids if they made them worthless to actually do. As many like to point out this is not a pve game its pvx...but those same exact people keep forgetting its not a pvp game its pvx....you have to have important viable pve as well or you just end up with pvp game.
  • Song_WardenSong_Warden Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Yeah, but, I explained that a time lock only locks specific raids out of an instanced raid. There would be nothing stopping a guild running multiple raids to farm a time locked instance. Unless you want to restrict masses of people from raiding and will only allow 40 people from each guild to do a time locked instance.

    The main issue I see is the failure in the Tagged System. In other games if you Tag a target, then only you or your group can only loot it. Instead Ashes have decided that an outside force can outperform the Tag Team and steal the loot. This means Raids are less likely to even PvP, they'd just out DPS the Tagged Team.

    The only time this wouldn't be an issue is if the secondary Raid arrives when the Tagged Target is lower than 60% health, because the Tagged Team would have surpassed the 40% DPS threshold. It is a mish mash set of circumstances where definitive answers can't be given because raiding isn't static, raiding is fluid.
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  • FiiaFiia Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited July 2020
    noaani wrote: »
    Fiia wrote: »
    Will raidbosses have one-hit-mechanics, too? And enrage? That'd be really interesting to know. It would be awesome if they did.

    Enrage timers are probably the worst thing to be introduced to raids since - well, ever.

    There are much better ways to implement DPS checks.

    Oh now that you mention it, Steven said something about that. I think something like the quicker you kill a boss the better loot will drop or something similar to that. That said, enrage timers aren't a bad thing, you create interesting mechanics with that, too. Most raidbosses usually only have the "if you don't kill boss in x minutes, you die"-mechanic. I agree that this is indeed a boring concept.
  • nibiru97nibiru97 Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited July 2020
    I think because it is open world, if bosses do end up changing in difficulty, groups might have to be tagged when they defeat a boss. Then when they try a different boss the system would have to check thats groups tag and go from there. And to be clear, not tags as in who tags it, but more like a background check on that specific group.
  • ninfosho wrote: »
    I would like to see the concept of dynamic difficulty implemented for instanced/raid/world bosses

    If the boss successfully kills a player this triggers more challenging mechanics, for example, it allows him to spawn minions which he wouldn't do otherwise

    Hi there fellow Tibia-brother :)
  • AardvarkAardvark Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    ninfosho wrote: »
    I would like to see the concept of dynamic difficulty implemented for instanced/raid/world bosses

    If the boss successfully kills a player this triggers more challenging mechanics, for example, it allows him to spawn minions which he wouldn't do otherwise

    Hi there fellow Tibia-brother :)

    So you want the boss in Zul Grub that yells ding and levels up everytime he kills a player?
  • Song_WardenSong_Warden Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Aardvark wrote: »
    So you want the boss in Zul Grub that yells ding and levels up everytime he kills a player?

    It would be hilarious if a Boss wipes a raid and says 'Noobs'. Lol
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