Greetings, glorious testers!
Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest news on Alpha Two.
Check out general Announcements here to see the latest news on Ashes of Creation & Intrepid Studios.
To get the quickest updates regarding Alpha Two, connect your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest news on Alpha Two.
Check out general Announcements here to see the latest news on Ashes of Creation & Intrepid Studios.
To get the quickest updates regarding Alpha Two, connect your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Will [Should] End-Game Content Stay Relevant with Expansion Releases?
MangoRinds
Member
How will they plan on balancing the relevance of previous end-game content once they add expansions? I ask because I've seen this is being marketed as a sandbox mmorpg NOT a theme-park mmorpg like WoW. When I think of Sandbox, things like Oldschool Runescape come to mind, and in games like that we have most "end-game" or poweful boss items/gear stay relevant one way or another. Whether through unique effects that stay useful, different allocations of stats like single target or aoe abilities, etc. In comparison, a theme-park game like WoW has end-game gear that immediately becomes irrelevant when a new expansion comes out, as it's higher level and significantly stronger equipment.
Also, for discussion, I'm curious what different people would prefer and how it could be implemented for Ashes of Creation.
TL;DR: Will [Should] old gear/bosses be useless when new ones come out?
Also, for discussion, I'm curious what different people would prefer and how it could be implemented for Ashes of Creation.
TL;DR: Will [Should] old gear/bosses be useless when new ones come out?
0
Comments
The reason optional expansions have better gear is it is a way of making that optional expansion be non-optional
unless the expainsion bosses drop a higher grade of mat required for the new higher tier blueprints
If the new content offers blueprints that require old and new bosses you can keep all content relevant. The bigger hurdle will be the power level of newly introduced items.
By releavent you mean make them farm a whole several hr dungeon for 1 mat that can only be gotten there with 0 chance of any gear drops worth having due to it being old content....you can also make a level 1-10 zone in a normal game relavent then by having a mob there that is the only thing low enough to drop 1 super low level mat in a legendary recipie
I heard a bird ♫
What I havent heard is, and it might be something, is a maximum life span for nodes. For ex: 12-18 months for a metropolis. I say this because if a guild/alliance can save a node forever when they're too strong with defending - there wouldnt be other nodes advancing and providing more/different/new content.
I feel like this would be against their vision with attacking and changing nodes. Hopefully they control gear creep so it is still cool to get that new sword finally but it isn't a tooth pick as soon as something new comes out.
To me (this could be because it's ingrained in my brain) I do feel like the natural progression for MMOs is to have old bosses and content eventually be one-shot grind fests for collectors, as gear just gets stronger and stronger.
I do think the power leaps small would be super neat. Like if you went from having a hard time killing a boss with 8 players in the current expansion with max gear, then the next expac drops and you could sort of do it with 6, and then 4, 2, etc. Eventually becoming grind-able but taking a way longer time.
I think the node system is what can keep old content relevant.
Yes I think new raid gear should replace old raid gear but I don't think day 1 new quest should replace previous raid gear. It should be gradual.
The reason it is how it is is to keep people from jumping right into new raids. The node system already solves this issue. You have to level up the node to get there so no skipping content
Good point. This will definitely be an issue Intrepid will have to deal with in the future.
Of course there's more depth to it that what I just described, but I do believe that this issue will be something that needs to be looked at in AoC specifically.
The ideas I've seen here gave me one idea though... Most MMORGs struggle with gaining new players at some point or another, after launch and a certain time period of running. So I know there is a big importance on accessibility and newcomer friendliness. But, wouldn't it be interesting if it weren't efficient (or if there weren't really many ways) to skip old content to get to new content? Like WoW for example, new Expansion comes out and you make a new character and jump into new questing and right into new content, or if you make a new character there is no real need to do old end-game content, just hit the max level and boom. What if you couldn't just jump to new end content and questing if you were brand new, or if you make alts, etc. Of course when you are leveling from scratch you will see other players leveling with you, and that keeps it fresh and keeps low level mats and gear relevant every time, as well has having a steady population there. What if end-game content was that way too? You had to climb the tier lists of dungeons/raids to eventually land at whatever the new content was (Whether its through soft requirements like you need decent gear to do new stuff). Only example I can think of is doing crappy dungeons to get decent gear to do epic dungeons to get better gear to do early tier raids to get better gear to do end raids. So that, but needed throughout each expansions content.
At the very least, it would keep old content relevant, because people would still need to learn the old content and progress every time new people come into the game or you level an alt. Otherwise you would have to get people to carry you constantly. Or you know, some iteration of that idea?
That being said, I do have a lot of faith in the team they have built, and I'm really curious to see the direction they choose. One thing we can probably all agree on is that Steven's philosophies on MMORPs so far have been solid, so I'm sure it is something he and the team have at least thought about.
I do think there is something to be said for not making old content just completely faceroll, though. It's immersion breaking to one-shot dragons and old-gods just because they're a few years old.
I don't think we'll be able to solo any content for a VERY long time in ashes. As the raids are set for 40 people, which means you would have to have similar health to 40 people (or fight a boss where you can dodge most of the attacks or heal yourself) and deal 40 people's worth of damage as one person. Due to the inherent design of their combat system. I don't think we'll see it for a long time.
eg, if you're 5-10 levels behind, if your spell does 1k damage, it will always do 1k damage (let's ignore they soft scaling of armor for now). This also works on the other end, wheres if you're 5-10 levels higher, your spell that does 1k damage will always do 1k damage. Wheres in WoW, well they screwed that up, and when you 10 levels higher you get to multiply your damage by crazy amounts, letting you solo content, as least as far as I've played. Everything that's like 2-3 expansions ago gets one shot.
Wheres, hopefully, it will take a huge about of time (or never hopefully) before that would be the case in AoC due to that.
Back on the topic of "old" content as new expansions come out. I think that if AoC wanted to keep old content alive when they release more, will firstly consist of WHAT the new content they bring into the game is.
Some examples of more content are, increasing the depth of the dungeons, adding new landmasses, adding new instanced dungeons/raids, adding more world bosses, introducing more content through professions by adding a new tier which lets to do X, Y, and Z which lets you go on a ship which gives you the availability to kill the massive Kraken that already existed but was unkillable/findable.
As content can come in all forms and sizes there is no perfect way of approaching each of them in a way that balances all new to old content. Ideas to keep the game scaling horizontally without too much vertical progression would be to add similar gear in terms of damage dealt, but with different sub-stats/sub-abilities that could make them more appealing once you have the whole set.
Or, having a progression based system that pads the game out by requiring the older content is completed first, for example, maybe you give to kill the ocean Kraken and get a weapon with bonus "water" damage to be more efficient at killing the fire dragon in the lava cave.
Another idea would to only slowly increase the power creep. By one, making it harder and longer to get. Two, by only increasing the tier of gear by 1. Instead of the way wow does and increases the tiers by like 1000 every expansion. And perhaps three, making you have to go through the previous content first, until around the third or fourth expansions come out which then make it a little easier to power farm older content for new players to let them catch up faster to the current tier.
At the end of the day, there are too many choices and design ideas that could be put in place for such an expansion but none of all MMOs I've ever played have done it well.
Taking what I think is the best example, Runescape. When they add content, it usually never involves updating the BiS gear, but it either makes it a little easier to level up skills, by giving different opportunities or methods of leveling up those skills. Or updating QoL features, or when new BiS gear does come into the gear. It's not even a tier higher but on an even playing field, and usually only BiS for one or two activities. When I first played in '06, barrows items were basically BiS for everything except for the abyssal whip which was the fastest attacking weapon. Now in the current osrs, they're no longer BiS at all, but now, they're basically the cheapest option to do most of the content in the game, as they're still amazing gear and most likely, BiS for the cost to benefit ratio, but just no longer BiS in every single case like it was in '06.
So to generalize everything I said, TLDR: I think horizontal scaling is best but with very slow vertical progression. I think it should really take a long time to get any vertical progression in the base game. As AoC has sooo many systems, like the nodes, religions, guilds, the adventuring class, professions, and whatever else I'm missing, I think all these systems used together should give you the "best" gear. While maxing only one of these systems should give you really good gear, it won't be BiS.
Twitch
Twitter
Personally, when I was thinking of ideas for my own MMO (not seriously, but I've made a design document), keeping the content relevant was one of the goals.
The way I envisioned it is that instead of gear, bosses would mainly drop rare materials for rare craft. That craft would be end-game itemization. And with each new content - reagents from older contents remain relevant, making people go there and farm them.
Instead of scaling base character power with levels, gear would play the main role. Lvl 1 and lvl 50 characters would have the same base HP and damage, but lvl 50 would get more abilities to increase effectiveness in combat.
Something like that.
This is very vague, I just can't be bothered to post all details.
TLDR: make old contents relevant through unique materials, attunements, quest lines, badges or whatever other mechanic.
Either upscale them to keep up with power creep, or design the game without power creep.