Quests - the Completionist Burnout trap

I want to keep this short and simple. I hope there are more MMORPG players in my category who feel the same as myself, and that this post can get some notice on this crowded board.

I'm an old school MMORPG player, first falling in love with the genre 1998 via Tibia. Since then I have, as most of us, been chasing the game once lost to casualization, added hand holding or later introduced pay-to-win features. As most of us I haven't found that game yet, and the hunt continues.

One reason in particular which have made it hard for me to get totally get immersed in a new MMORPG again have been what I consider as the "over use" of quests to keep players "occupied". Such design may serve some categories of players well by adding a feeling of that there is always something to do .... but for us "Completionist" this design haunt us with the constant fear of "maybe I'm missing out on a very important quest reward item that is only obtainable in a certain level range" should I progress my character via open world mob/spawn grinding instead of Quest-grinding. The consequence is that you feel trapped to only gain your EXP while doing the quests, rather than via the player's preferred EXP method of mob/spawn grinding at his/her freely choose world location. This feeling have essentially made me a slave to a game's Wiki, constantly checking so that I did not miss any of the quest that are giving those "must to have rewards" and are considered as "important to not miss" ... and eventually this personally enforced feeling of "I have to do all the quests" made me burnout on all MMORPG I've tried since the old-school days.

My questions are: Do anyone among you here on the forums experience the same curse of OCD Completionist problem? Is this something the developers have addressed when discussing the Quest design? Also, if I'd be so lucky to get a reply from a person involved in the AoC team: Have you considered helping us Completionists out by having an outspoken design of that both Quest-grinding and Mob/Spawn-Grinding are equally viable? Or alternatively having different markings separating between those quests that can (and those who cannot) safely be substituted with free open world mod/spawn grinding?

Trying to be more concrete ...

The issue I'm trying to express do not exist on the axis of having "too much" -- vs. --- "too little" to do. The issue I'm speaking about exist on the axis of "Viability of Quest-grinding" --- vs. ---- "Viability of open world Mob/Spawn grinding". What I'm arguing for is that it would serve the players well to let them know that both methods (Quest-grinding and Mob/Spawn Grinding) are viable. They don't need to be precisely equally efficient, just the knowledge of that both are viable would give the peace of mind to venture out in the world and Mob/Spawn grind if so is the desired path of the player.

Some players do enjoy progressing with there characters following the process of "accept quest" --> "Complete Quest" --> "Receive Quest reward" ... but a substantial part of MMORPG player prefer the process of "Stock up on supplies" ---> "Travel to a specific favorite grind spot" --> "repetitiously grind this port for 12h straight" ---> "Travel back to town with loot".

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Ulf

Jester Flame wrote: »

Have you considered helping us Completionists out by having an outspoken design of that anything obtained in quests can also be obtained somehow via grinding? Is there a place and alternative in this game for us who cannot stand questing and rather grind hardcore where we please?
[/b]

Hello! I'm not a member of the AoC Team, but that in particular caught my eye.

I like both questing and grinding, there is place for both, but I do think that there should be quest specific items, but not NECESSARY TO LIVE specific quest items. And the person to judge that, should be the player. What do i do... do i grind these mobs, to get hunting certs and maybe a good drop, or do i take this quest that gives me... sort of the same but takes more time.. etc.

Humble opinion.. it is a good thread

Have a nice day !

Ulf

Noaani

Jester Flame wrote: »

For some questing gives the feeling of freedom ... but for some, the freedom from not having to be a slave to the quests gives the feeling of freedom.

The freedom you seek won't come from changes in game design, as you will find something else to be a slave to. This is especially true in a game like Ashes where every change to node state means different NPC's are opened up, which may result in different quests being available,

The only way you will find that freedom you want is to learn to let go.

Jester Flame

Ulf wrote: »

Jester Flame wrote: »

Have you considered helping us Completionists out by having an outspoken design of that anything obtained in quests can also be obtained somehow via grinding? Is there a place and alternative in this game for us who cannot stand questing and rather grind hardcore where we please?
[/b]

Hello! I'm not a member of the AoC Team, but that in particular caught my eye.

I like both questing and grinding, there is place for both, but I do think that there should be quest specific items, but not NECESSARY TO LIVE specific quest items. And the person to judge that, should be the player. What do i do... do i grind these mobs, to get hunting certs and maybe a good drop, or do i take this quest that gives me... sort of the same but takes more time.. etc.

Humble opinion.. it is a good thread

Have a nice day !

Ulf

Thank you for good replying Ulf. Your reply made me feel I need to clarify further, I see now I was unclear in my description to people who may not suffer from my category of player to burn out from questing.

Trying to hit the nail on the head this time. Its actually not the Quest unique items/ranks/achievements that is the problem. For the completionist and/or perfectionist its more the ever present probability assessment running in the back of your mind trying to judge whether or not you are screwing something up should you just go and enjoy grinding hard core while exploring freely in an area that find interesting ... and thus skipping the path which the Quests lay out for you.

If I should try to be concrete. Some type of separation in the marking of Quests that can safely be substituted with grinding and those that cannot would calm the hearts of us OCD perfectionists without having to read Wiki-pages for hours before progressing.

Best,
Jester Flame

Jester Flame

noaani wrote: »

Jester Flame wrote: »

For some questing gives the feeling of freedom ... but for some, the freedom from not having to be a slave to the quests gives the feeling of freedom.

The freedom you seek won't come from changes in game design, as you will find something else to be a slave to. This is especially true in a game like Ashes where every change to node state means different NPC's are opened up, which may result in different quests being available,

The only way you will find that freedom you want is to learn to let go.

Thanks for your reply noaani.

Well, for some people it's easier than others to let go and just accept taking a sub-optimal path. I'm bringing the topic up so as to be a voice for the people of my kind and to make my part bringing potential edge to the game. For some people its just an unacceptable prospect to accept missing out on "that very important trinket" you only could get by completing "that specific quest when you were in the level 20-30 range". Instead myself and my category of players get stuck in wiki pages planing everything out in detail for days .. or alternatively just do all of the quest to not risk anything.

Noaani

Jester Flame wrote: »

that specific quest when you were in the level 20-30 range

Games with good designers don't restrict quests in this manner.

Jester Flame

noaani wrote: »

Jester Flame wrote: »

that specific quest when you were in the level 20-30 range

Games with good designers don't restrict quests in this manner.

This is why I'm asking how it will be in this game

...

But as a matter of fact most modern MMORPGs I have played had this problematic element. Just running out in the world, skipping the Quests, trying to Gear-up and progress towards the max level do result in either that you hit a brick-wall where someone tells you "you should have done that Quest .. it has the best sword for your level" or you later realize that trinket that is a must for PvP was only obtainable in a 20-30 level quest. WoW being one example of that.

Noaani

Jester Flame wrote: »

WoW being one example of that.

When I said games with good designers don't restrict quests in this manner, I was fully aware there are quests with these restrictions in WoW.

There is an inference there for you to make about my opinions on WoW developers abilities. The fact that they had to consult the Diablo 3 team on design decisions of their new expansion, at a point in time where Diablo 3 is getting wrecked in the ARPG market by a free to play game says just how bad those developers actually are.

Jester Flame

noaani wrote: »

Jester Flame wrote: »

WoW being one example of that.

When I said games with good designers don't restrict quests in this manner, I was fully aware there are quests with these restrictions in WoW.

There is an inference there for you to make about my opinions on WoW developers abilities. The fact that they had to consult the Diablo 3 team on design decisions of their new expansion, at a point in time where Diablo 3 is getting wrecked in the ARPG market by a free to play game says just how bad those developers actually are.

Yes. I've gotten burned too many times. This is why I wanted to ask here to get an idea about whether or not this game will allow one to go out in the world and grind without having to worry that you eventually will find yourself missing a key Quest-reward item and/or hitting a wall due to having picked up some quest that gave a "best for the level" armor or weapon. Basically, being able to be free to grind the area on one's choice without having to google, wiki, youtube my way to which quests are a must to take etc.

MrScrewtape

This is an interesting concept for completionism in Ashes. With nodes going up and down in levels, and there even being quests opening and closing between nodes if specific conditions are met, I wonder if anyone could ever keep up with them all.

As has been said, each server could have totally different available quests simply due to what nodes made it to the next stage and what alliances and relationships node mayors established with other nodes.

With this much variability for how and when specific quests become available, I wonder if/when/how quest writeups on wikis will ever be maintained as it might not even be clear what conditions led to the quest being available.

Magic Man

Ah I'm so glad someone else feels the same way 💚

I totally agree with your thread. Me and my friends have been talking about this for a looong time. I personally like the idea of quests as long as they are challenging and feel like actual adventures rather than ''artificial'' ones. I like when things happen naturally - or the game gives you that feeling (some single player RGPs do this well).

So, I asked about this indirectly many times to Steven and Jeffrey. Unfortunately, from what I've understood over the years, Ashes will be a very quest-driven game rather than achieving things through alternative methods. Things will be locked behind quests.

Screen_Shot_2020-07-27_at_20.14.19.png

But also,

Jester Flame

Magic Man wrote: »

Ah I'm so glad someone else feels the same way 💚

I totally agree with your thread. Me and my friends have been talking about this for a looong time. I personally like the idea of quests as long as they are challenging and feel like actual adventures rather than ''artificial'' ones. I like when things happen naturally - or the game gives you that feeling (some single player RGPs do this well).

So, I asked about this indirectly many times to Steven and Jeffrey. Unfortunately, from what I've understood over the years, Ashes will be a very quest-driven game rather than achieving things through alternative methods. Things will be locked behind quests.

But also,

Wow. Thank you for finding these answers from the developers Magic Man. Personally I'm ok with having Quest driven node development content. I don't think that per say is a obstacle for the competionist or perfectionist player. That is, as long as the quests DON'T fall into either of the two categories below (IMO):

Daily quest that are clearly the "optimal" to do in terms of reward for time spent. These result in the MMORPG more feeling like going to work or having a nagging spouse telling you to do this and that rather than progressing freely with your MMORPG character.
Quests that are only accessible during a certain level range and give items or bonuses to your characters in a way such that a player whom instead grinded mobs freely out in the world cannot gain these rewards later. In short, Quests giving rewards that are of a superior quality or rarity such as to penalize mob/spawn grinding, and thus forcing the optimizers, perfectionists and completionists into quest grinding even though they should prefer open world mob/spawn grinding.

RahkstarRPG

Jester Flame wrote: »

Daily quest that are clearly the "optimal" to do in terms of reward for time spent. These result in the MMORPG more feeling like going to work or having a nagging spouse telling you to do this and that rather than progressing freely with your MMORPG character.

I really don't mean to speak negatively about you at all, as I used to suffer from the same feelings.

The problem is, in the end, there will always be a most efficient way to do things in an MMO. It's completely unavoidable. It may not take the form of daily quests, but it will be there. If you spend all of your time worrying and doing things in the most efficient manner instead of enjoying the game you're playing... why are you even playing, really? The game is causing you more stress than fun.

That's something I had to ask myself quite a few times until I finally broke that habit/mentality, and it's done wonders for my ability to enjoy MMOs in general.

I do hope AoC can be designed in such a way to alleviate your feelings, but with the way node destruction works and options disappearing along with them, I fear it may not be so.

phdmonster

I am confused. Is the problem that the game will have too much to do, or too little?

Jester Flame

RahkstarRPG wrote: »

The problem is, in the end, there will always be a most efficient way to do things in an MMO. It's completely unavoidable. It may not take the form of daily quests, but it will be there.

Yes that is for certain. But to my understanding having Daily-Quests as the most efficient use of time is a big turn-off for a large group of MMORPG players. I think a larger group than the OCD completionist / perfectionist group tbh. I think the consensus is quite clear on that this was precisely what killed Archage for example. If you get my point?

RahkstarRPG wrote: »

If you spend all of your time worrying and doing things in the most efficient manner instead of enjoying the game you're playing... why are you even playing, really? The game is causing you more stress than fun.

Nono, you get me wrong. It's not the desire to always do the most optimal that is the pressing issue here. In fact, most of the OCD completionist players would likely be totally fine with knowingly choose the potentially less "effective" path of mob/spawn grind in the open world, instead of the "presumed" optimal path of Quest-grinding. The deal breaker here is if there are absolutely necessary items (achievements) you ONLY get as rewards from doing certain quests that can ONLY be made at a certain level range. In WoW for example there are a few items that are a MUST to have for PvP that your character can ONLY get from completing a few quests in a certain level range. Hence, you would assume an unrecoverable disadvantage to your character should you go the mob/spawn grinding path rather than the Quest grinding path.

RahkstarRPG wrote: »

That's something I had to ask myself quite a few times until I finally broke that habit/mentality, and it's done wonders for my ability to enjoy MMOs in general.

It's good that you, and players like yourself, have came to peace with that. But what I try to convey here is that there are a pretty substantial group of MMORPG players that is getting discouraged from continue to invest in the game should the (Daily) Quest-grinding be design in a way such that it would be impossible to stay competitive unless you spend your daily playing hours doing these. Retail Wow and Archage are two prime examples of that.

Jester Flame

phdmonster wrote: »

I am confused. Is the problem that the game will have too much to do, or too little?

The issue are not on the axis "too much" -- vs. --- "too little" ... having more interesting and fun stuff to do is always preferred. The issue I'm speaking about is on the axis of "Viability of Quest-grinding" --- vs. ---- "Viability of open world Mob/Spawn grinding".

What I'm arguing for is that both methods (Quest-grinding and Mob/Spawn Grinding) should be viable. Some players do enjoy progressing with there characters following the process of "accept quest" --> "Complete Quest" --> "Receive Quest reward" ... but a substantial part of MMORPG player prefer the process of "Stock up on supplies" ---> "Travel to a specific favorite grind spot" --> "repetitiously grind this port for 12h straight" ---> "Travel back to town with loot".

Unfortunately (imo) many Modern MMORPGs are making one or the other method non-viable for one or another reason.

Potato Basket

noaani wrote: »

Jester Flame wrote: »

For some questing gives the feeling of freedom ... but for some, the freedom from not having to be a slave to the quests gives the feeling of freedom.

The freedom you seek won't come from changes in game design, as you will find something else to be a slave to. This is especially true in a game like Ashes where every change to node state means different NPC's are opened up, which may result in different quests being available,

The only way you will find that freedom you want is to learn to let go.

Exactly. What OP suggests only adds to his problem, imagine having several ways to complete a quest, now not only you have to worry about reading the wiki but also worry which way is the most efficient/easier to complete it which leads to even more reading and enslaving and less gaming

Players will always seek for the way of least resistance (the meta) and that's the root of the problem, as long as they're aware that there might be an easier way to complete the task they will always feel uncomfortable and question their decisions on how they're playing the game

What you hope for is that the player should know what's best for him but unfortunately that's not always the case specially for majority of the players that come after the meta has formed

The beautiful thing in AoC that the meta hold only for the vertical progression, once you hit 50 the real game begins and hopefully it is one of constant change driven by the players which is impossible to pin down to a specific way of playing, people always change and want different things, people come and go and a natural flow and cycles can potentially exist

At least that's the promise...

Jester Flame

ninfosho wrote: »

noaani wrote: »

Jester Flame wrote: »

For some questing gives the feeling of freedom ... but for some, the freedom from not having to be a slave to the quests gives the feeling of freedom.

The freedom you seek won't come from changes in game design, as you will find something else to be a slave to. This is especially true in a game like Ashes where every change to node state means different NPC's are opened up, which may result in different quests being available,

The only way you will find that freedom you want is to learn to let go.

Exactly. What OP suggests only adds to his problem, imagine having several ways to complete a quest, now not only you have to worry about reading the wiki but also worry which way is the most efficient/easier to complete it which leads to even more reading and enslaving and less gaming

Players will always seek for the way of least resistance (the meta) and that's the root of the problem, as long as they're aware that there might be an easier way to complete the task they will always feel uncomfortable and question their decisions on how they're playing the game

What you hope for is that the player should know what's best for him but unfortunately that's not always the case specially for majority of the players that come after the meta has formed

The beautiful thing in AoC that the meta hold only for the vertical progression, once you hit 50 the real game begins and hopefully it is one of constant change driven by the players which is impossible to pin down to a specific way of playing, people always change and want different things, people come and go and a natural flow and cycles can potentially exist

At least that's the promise...

Thanks for your reply ninfosho.

Actually I have replied to several replies now explaining that this is not it. It's not the desire to always do the most optimal that is the pressing issue here. In fact, most of the OCD completionist players would likely be totally fine with knowingly choose the potentially less "effective" path of mob/spawn grind in the open world, instead of the "presumed" optimal path of Quest-grinding. The deal breaker here is if there are absolutely necessary items (achievements) you ONLY get as rewards from doing certain quests that can ONLY be made at a certain level range. In WoW for example there are a few items that are a MUST to have for PvP that your character can ONLY get from completing a few quests in a certain level range. Hence, you would assume an unrecoverable disadvantage to your character should you go the mob/spawn grinding path rather than the Quest grinding path.

It is also not an issue on the axis "too much" -- vs. --- "too little" ... having more interesting and fun stuff to do is always preferred. The issue I'm speaking about is on the axis of "Viability of Quest-grinding" --- vs. ---- "Viability of open world Mob/Spawn grinding".

What I'm arguing for is that both methods (Quest-grinding and Mob/Spawn Grinding) should be viable. Some players do enjoy progressing with there characters following the process of "accept quest" --> "Complete Quest" --> "Receive Quest reward" ... but a substantial part of MMORPG player prefer the process of "Stock up on supplies" ---> "Travel to a specific favorite grind spot" --> "repetitiously grind this port for 12h straight" ---> "Travel back to town with loot".

Unfortunately (imo) many Modern MMORPGs are making one or the other method non-viable for one or another reason.

I hope you get my point. Thanks again for replying.

Noaani

Jester Flame wrote: »

What I'm arguing for is that both methods (Quest-grinding and Mob/Spawn Grinding) should be viable. Some players do enjoy progressing with there characters following the process of "accept quest" --> "Complete Quest" --> "Receive Quest reward" ... but a substantial part of MMORPG player prefer the process of "Stock up on supplies" ---> "Travel to a specific favorite grind spot" --> "repetitiously grind this port for 12h straight" ---> "Travel back to town with loot".

Each of these activities should result in different rewards, not the same reward.

If they offered the same reward, that would mean the player that gets the quest reward has no value in grinding. Since grinding is a perpetual activity, and quests are one offs, the rewards appropriate for each activity are kind of pre-determined.

Again, the solution to your issue is for you to not play WoW.

Jester Flame

noaani wrote: »

Each of these activities should result in different rewards, not the same reward.

If they offered the same reward, that would mean the player that gets the quest reward has no value in grinding. Since grinding is a perpetual activity, and quests are one offs, the rewards appropriate for each activity are kind of pre-determined.

What I'm arguing for is not that Quest-Grinding and Mob/Spawn-Grinding must be precisely equally as "effective". My argument is simply that both methods of progression (Quest-Grinding and Mob/Spawn-Grinding) are viable, so as to also accommodate players who dislike the process of "accept quest" --> "Complete Quest" --> "Receive Quest reward" ... and instead prefers reaching max level via the process of "Stock up on supplies" ---> "Travel to a specific favorite grind spot" --> "repetitiously grind this port for 12h straight" ---> "Travel back to town with loot".

noaani wrote: »

Again, the solution to your issue is for you to not play WoW.

Yes. And also pray for that Ashes do not become like WoW. This is why I'm writing this post from my heart.

Noaani

Jester Flame wrote: »

What I'm arguing for is not that Quest-Grinding and Mob/Spawn-Grinding must be precisely equally as "effective". My argument is simply that both methods of progression (Quest-Grinding and Mob/Spawn-Grinding) are viable, so as to also accommodate players who dislike the process of "accept quest" --> "Complete Quest" --> "Receive Quest reward" ... and instead prefers reaching max level via the process of "Stock up on supplies" ---> "Travel to a specific favorite grind spot" --> "repetitiously grind this port for 12h straight" ---> "Travel back to town with loot".

I don't know of a single game where this isn't viable.

You don't get the same rewards though. If a quest offers a reward, it won't and shouldn't be made available via mob grinding.

Yes. And also pray for that Ashes do not become like WoW. This is why I'm writing this post from my heart.

If you look at the staff (specifically senior staff) that Steven hired, you'll notice there are no ex Blizzard employees among them.

There is no doubt a reason for this.

If you listen to Stevens influences in regards to MMO's, or even listen to him talking about them in general, you won't hear him even mention WoW or Blizzard.

There is no doubt a reason for this as well.

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