Gear creep (future expansions)

WMC51

This is one of the things I have hates most about the more recent MMORPG's and I don't remember it being as bad in the older days. This is usually a future expansion issue so not really relevant yet but everything else has looked pretty on the money to me so might as well throw it in there.

There was nothing I hated more than raid / crafted gear that took months to get being replaced by the first green drop with an expansion or level cap I understand the need to advance gear but I don't think top tier gear you invested in should be replaced by the first green you get for killing rats in a sewer for a random NPC..

It would be nice if the gear you work hard to get lasted a little into a level increase or expansion.

Lazyactor

Yeah the community as a whole hasnt discussed it much because its so far out there. That being said assuming they make the new content we get just slightly better than the best of the best before the gear degradation system should help keep things in check. Not only do you need to acquire your BIS gear but you also need to have the funds to be able to acquire the material components to keep it in good shape. So I can see a future where most people dont make the switch to the new BIS for some time depending on rarity of the new stuff.

CasualEthan

My suggestion would be to make it more effective to use certain end game gear for a specific boss. What i mean is, instead of increasing the power of the items added in each expansion, come out with new gear that will be specifically better for certain raids based on the mechanics of that raid.Maybe the dragon is weak to frost and a new expansion item has frost damage and is end game gear so it can be used to kill the old boss more effectively but without just increasing the base damage persay. That way they can add new gear without having to add power to them necessarily making it balanced for pvp or other activities. Not sure what the solution here is but that's just my thought on it.

phdmonster

I think they will go more on the route of making gear usefull in certain PvX situations and having specific stats and bonuses that help players in dealing with specific content, rather than going the WoW route where the next set is always objectively better than the last one in every way.

Netory

I'm not sure if I'm remembering this right, but I think Steven said in one of the interviews that they are planning a gear treadmill for expansions, obviously that's a long time from now and nothing is written in stone, but if they do end up going that route I don't know how to feel about that.

On one hand there's GW2's no gear treadmill route where the items you got back in 2012 are still just as good in 2020. The expansions do offer some sense of progression in the form of earning new mounts, unlocking subclasses, cosmetics, achievements, etc. but it's only horizontal progression, and I can earn new equipment but there's always an equal stat trade-off, crit chance in exchange for flat damage, that sort of thing, so at the end of the day I won't have a bigger stick to hit other players with just a different stick and that's not enough of an incentive for me.

On the other hand we could go the world of warcraft route where you can get that bigger stick, so you get that bittersweet sense of progression knowing you got stronger but after a few months or a year it would have been for nothing since every new expansion makes old content obsolete and even with its 16 years of game development the world still feels small because the only relevant content is the newest expansion content, and I understand that some players enjoy replaying old content for cosmetics and achievements but one shotting raid bosses is not my idea of fun.

My suggestion would be to have a mix of the two, where every expansion new gear slots are added (bracers, trinket, relic, etc.) something we didn't have a slot for before, or something similiar that would enhance already existing equipment (enchantments, gem socketing, infusions, runes, etc.), along with sidegrades to already existing equipment like:
You want your helmet to give you 10 more strength but 10 less agility? Do the new raid.
You want your helmet to give you 10 more agility but 10 less strength? Do the old raid.
So your items earned from old content should still be considered best in slot in terms of stat amount but then you can get stronger still by doing new content and earning enhancements for your equipment, or by earning new item types to fill in new item slots.

halbarz

I honestly do not see expansions with massive stat increases being received very well in this game due to the time and investment it requires to just get the base game features completed + geared up.

With this, I personally believe that Patches: Should build out the core game for at least 3 years with new world bosses, new mounts, new dungeons, new mechanics, etc. add new gearsets that are horizontal growth (same stats, different bonuses or effects)

With Expansions: Instead of level creases should be more of a "rank" expansions should add content to the core game (new activities, mechanics, classes, etc.) and based on the rank you achieve give access to slightly better gear or maybe an additional set bonus to your current gear. This to not have to big of a jump and keep the game balanced.

Expansions often destroy the core game as they only add something to specific features and leave others behind tinning out the game bit by bit to the point that a game becomes just another theme park. This is what they should be careful with.

halbarz

Netory wrote: »

My suggestion would be to have a mix of the two, where every expansion new gear slots are added (bracers, trinket, relic, etc.) something we didn't have a slot for before, or something similiar that would enhance already existing equipment (enchantments, gem socketing, infusions, runes, etc.), along with sidegrades to already existing equipment like:
You want your helmet to give you 10 more strength but 10 less agility? Do the new raid.
You want your helmet to give you 10 more agility but 10 less strength? Do the old raid.
So your items earned from old content should still be considered best in slot in terms of stat amount but then you can get stronger still by doing new content and earning enhancements for your equipment, or by earning new item types to fill in new item slots.

I like this a lot!

Kaielogy

This will be a headache for the design team, because in order to make it interesting while stays relevant, the gear progression can be minimal, example stats just plus 5 or reshuffle the stats with variety. Then go wild on the design and lore of the gears. So in order for old gears to be severely underpowered it will have to take maybe 10 expansions.

Aardvark

Netory wrote: »

I'm not sure if I'm remembering this right, but I think Steven said in one of the interviews that they are planning a gear treadmill for expansions, obviously that's a long time from now and nothing is written in stone, but if they do end up going that route I don't know how to feel about that.

On one hand there's GW2's no gear treadmill route where the items you got back in 2012 are still just as good in 2020. The expansions do offer some sense of progression in the form of earning new mounts, unlocking subclasses, cosmetics, achievements, etc. but it's only horizontal progression, and I can earn new equipment but there's always an equal stat trade-off, crit chance in exchange for flat damage, that sort of thing, so at the end of the day I won't have a bigger stick to hit other players with just a different stick and that's not enough of an incentive for me.

On the other hand we could go the world of warcraft route where you can get that bigger stick, so you get that bittersweet sense of progression knowing you got stronger but after a few months or a year it would have been for nothing since every new expansion makes old content obsolete and even with its 16 years of game development the world still feels small because the only relevant content is the newest expansion content, and I understand that some players enjoy replaying old content for cosmetics and achievements but one shotting raid bosses is not my idea of fun.

My suggestion would be to have a mix of the two, where every expansion new gear slots are added (bracers, trinket, relic, etc.) something we didn't have a slot for before, or something similiar that would enhance already existing equipment (enchantments, gem socketing, infusions, runes, etc.), along with sidegrades to already existing equipment like:
You want your helmet to give you 10 more strength but 10 less agility? Do the new raid.
You want your helmet to give you 10 more agility but 10 less strength? Do the old raid.
So your items earned from old content should still be considered best in slot in terms of stat amount but then you can get stronger still by doing new content and earning enhancements for your equipment, or by earning new item types to fill in new item slots.

GW2 also had people decked out in the best in slot gear for 90% of their slots in 1 month...who left after 2 months because other than arena pvp and leveling alts there was nothing left to do.

halbarz

Gw2 did make some mistakes when it comes to gear and progression especially since it is a theme park MMO.

Ashes on the other hand, in my opinion, will have a difficult time balancing new vs old due to the game and all the mechanics. If expansions would focus on progression it could bit by bit make some of the core game features irrelevant and go from a game that balance theme and sandbox to become more and more theme park. I would love to hear the devs their stance on this topic and how they are going to handle this.

Lotharr

Gear creep like bdo is acceptable to me (!NOT talking about the enhancement system and not about their hidden stats!). Meaning: small upgrades in 5 years time period, old 'boss' gear is still very relevant.

Solonthebandit

I like the idea of additional content providing a mix of a couple skill augments, bonus skill points, bonus augment points, gems, runes, and at least a few new BIS items.

I think BIS items should be in the top ~90% of gear up to a year after release. basically Q1 expansion BIS should be better than almost everything new in Q2 expansion, better than most in Q3, and still better than commons and greens in Q4.

I also think AoC's node system provides a logical progression system for exisiting content to change drop tables. I agree that it seems incredibly wasteful that in some games content ages extremely poorly and is barely touched as time marches on. However, the content needs to pull players in to retain a balanced PvX feel.

Nexmagus

an easy way to combat this: Your crafted gear can be upgraded to the new expansion, this would require less material then making a new piece from scratch

WMC51

If they thought a head enough the raid and high level dungeon gear could be pre-built with an upgrade path for expansions. That way they wouldn't have to go back and rework them to be upgradeable.

I remember in EQ when tanks would use 3 expansion old weapons for the aggro procs.

Hard to guess at how it might be handled not seeing gear stats yet.