Open world PVP and bounty hunter questions
Shaladoor
Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
Hi! New to the forums and the Ashes of Creation community. I'm psyched about the game as I'm sure everyone else here is, too. I'm really looking forward to everything this game has to offer.
I've been reading through the forum posts, trying to find as much info on the open world PVP to try and answer my questions before posting, but I haven't found the answers I'm looking for so I'm making a post. I realize that my questions may be very specific and potentially unanswerable at the moment. Any answers are awesome, and discussion is of course most welcome. I'm throwing a lot of stuff out there, so thanks in advance to anyone to takes the time to read it.
Also, when I use the term "node" in the following, I mean a specific gatherable node, like a mining node. I wish I had a better term, since node is also used as a geographical region.
Scenario: Player 1 is ALWAYS a non-combatant , Player 2 flags for PVP.
1) Continuously interrupting a player that is gathering. Assume Player 1 is trying to farm a gatherable node. If Player 2 attacks Player 1. Does this interrupt Player 2, and prevent them from finishing their gathering?
My thoughts: I think it would/should.
Concern: What if Player 2 repeatedly hits Player 1 with a small DoT, or very weak attack. Or they keep casting an interrupt, or stun. The goal of Player 2 isn't to actually kill Player 1, but to simply grief them and prevent them from gathering the node. Maybe they want to engage in PVP to kill Player 1. As long as Player 2 hits them with trivial amounts of damage and interrupts, Player 1 could be kept from gathering altogether unless they engage in PVP with Player 2. But if Player 2 is obviously going to win any PVP engagement (like if Player 2 is 5 levels higher, or is decked out in epic gear, etc.) then Player 1 is stuck in an impossible situation. They can't complete their gathering, and if they flag for PVP then they will be annihilated with no repercussions for Player 1. Any ideas on how to prevent this behavior? The only thing I can think of is something like a stacking penalty the longer you stayed flagged for PVP? Or maybe this is just something that can't be fixed, or dealt with?
2) Assume Player 2 brings Player 1 health really low, but doesn't kill them. Then, somehow, Player 2 manages to bring a mob/monster over to Player 1 that has an AoE ability or something. The goal of Player 2 is to have the monster kill Player 1 somehow. Assume Player 1 manages to die to the monster, and not Player 2. Does Player 2 still receive corruption?
My thoughts: I think they should. Player 2 contributed to the death of Player 1, regardless of who or what dealt the finishing blow.
Concern: I think consideration should be taken to make sure there isn't a way to "game" the system here. As long as Player 2 is flagged, engaged in combat with Player 1, and Player 1 died... then yes, Player 2 should receive corruption.
3) Assume Player 2 has a friend, Player 3, who isn't flagged for PVP. Player 3 heals Player 2 while he goes about attacking Player 1. Will Player 3 be required to be flagged for PVP before they can heal Player 2? Would Player 3 receive corruption as well? Would Player 3 receive the same amount of corruption, even though they didn't directly attack Player 1?
My thoughts: Yes, yes, and yes.
Concern: I think the issue here speaks for itself. Friends helping friends gank other Players. I imagine this will be taken care of, I just want to throw it out there.
4) Assume Player 2 has lots of DoTs. Player 2 knows they can kill Player 1. Assume Player 2 attacks Player 1, and before they die, Player 2 logs off or DCs on purpose. Player 1 dies due to the DoTs. Would Player 2 still receive corruption even though they're logged off at the time when Player 1 actually dies?
My thoughts: Of course Player 2 should receive corruption. I just think it should be something to keep an eye out for. Just putting it out there.
5) Bounty Hunters.
Assume Player 2 kills Player 1 and gains corruption. There is an idea/system for bounty hunters.
My thoughts: I like the idea of having bounty hunters. But if players don't go corrupted, there's no need for bounty hunters. And if players going corrupted is so rare, why would a bounty hunter go out of their way to bring them to justice? I think the reward and incentive really needs to be there in order for the bounty hunter system to succeed. And I think there should be a limit on what levels should be allowed to open world PVP. I don't want to see someone create a level 1 alt, level to 3 real quick, and then start ganking new players for giggles. Otherwise, imagine how insane this game might be at the very beginning when everyone is low level...
OK, I feel like I've typed enough. I think I've spit out most of my thoughts at the moment.
I've been reading through the forum posts, trying to find as much info on the open world PVP to try and answer my questions before posting, but I haven't found the answers I'm looking for so I'm making a post. I realize that my questions may be very specific and potentially unanswerable at the moment. Any answers are awesome, and discussion is of course most welcome. I'm throwing a lot of stuff out there, so thanks in advance to anyone to takes the time to read it.
Also, when I use the term "node" in the following, I mean a specific gatherable node, like a mining node. I wish I had a better term, since node is also used as a geographical region.
Scenario: Player 1 is ALWAYS a non-combatant , Player 2 flags for PVP.
1) Continuously interrupting a player that is gathering. Assume Player 1 is trying to farm a gatherable node. If Player 2 attacks Player 1. Does this interrupt Player 2, and prevent them from finishing their gathering?
My thoughts: I think it would/should.
Concern: What if Player 2 repeatedly hits Player 1 with a small DoT, or very weak attack. Or they keep casting an interrupt, or stun. The goal of Player 2 isn't to actually kill Player 1, but to simply grief them and prevent them from gathering the node. Maybe they want to engage in PVP to kill Player 1. As long as Player 2 hits them with trivial amounts of damage and interrupts, Player 1 could be kept from gathering altogether unless they engage in PVP with Player 2. But if Player 2 is obviously going to win any PVP engagement (like if Player 2 is 5 levels higher, or is decked out in epic gear, etc.) then Player 1 is stuck in an impossible situation. They can't complete their gathering, and if they flag for PVP then they will be annihilated with no repercussions for Player 1. Any ideas on how to prevent this behavior? The only thing I can think of is something like a stacking penalty the longer you stayed flagged for PVP? Or maybe this is just something that can't be fixed, or dealt with?
2) Assume Player 2 brings Player 1 health really low, but doesn't kill them. Then, somehow, Player 2 manages to bring a mob/monster over to Player 1 that has an AoE ability or something. The goal of Player 2 is to have the monster kill Player 1 somehow. Assume Player 1 manages to die to the monster, and not Player 2. Does Player 2 still receive corruption?
My thoughts: I think they should. Player 2 contributed to the death of Player 1, regardless of who or what dealt the finishing blow.
Concern: I think consideration should be taken to make sure there isn't a way to "game" the system here. As long as Player 2 is flagged, engaged in combat with Player 1, and Player 1 died... then yes, Player 2 should receive corruption.
3) Assume Player 2 has a friend, Player 3, who isn't flagged for PVP. Player 3 heals Player 2 while he goes about attacking Player 1. Will Player 3 be required to be flagged for PVP before they can heal Player 2? Would Player 3 receive corruption as well? Would Player 3 receive the same amount of corruption, even though they didn't directly attack Player 1?
My thoughts: Yes, yes, and yes.
Concern: I think the issue here speaks for itself. Friends helping friends gank other Players. I imagine this will be taken care of, I just want to throw it out there.
4) Assume Player 2 has lots of DoTs. Player 2 knows they can kill Player 1. Assume Player 2 attacks Player 1, and before they die, Player 2 logs off or DCs on purpose. Player 1 dies due to the DoTs. Would Player 2 still receive corruption even though they're logged off at the time when Player 1 actually dies?
My thoughts: Of course Player 2 should receive corruption. I just think it should be something to keep an eye out for. Just putting it out there.
5) Bounty Hunters.
Assume Player 2 kills Player 1 and gains corruption. There is an idea/system for bounty hunters.
- Corrupted players are probably very confident in their PK skills to begin with, imo. Do bounty hunters receive increased combat skills or protection against corrupted players?
- Instant travel will be limited, and traveling across the world is going to take some time. Do bounty hunters receive increased movement speed, in order to catch up to corrupted players?
- Instead of bounty hunters receiving increased movement speed, could/would/should corrupted players move slower instead? What's to prevent a corrupted player from just simply running nonstop to avoid all conflict with bounty hunters?
- How long would/should it take a bounty hunter to track down a corrupted player? The larger the world and the more limited the movement, the longer it will take.
- I hear info on other players is somewhat limited. For example, you can't just right click on a person and see everything about them (health, mana, spec, gear, etc). I don't know the specifics. Will bounty hunters receive extra intel on their corrupted targets? Makes sense that they would, in order to assess whether they could defeat a corrupted player before taking the time to track them down and try to kill them.
- If multiple bounty hunters successfully attack and kill a corrupted player, do all bounty hunters receive credit? Is any loot that drops first come first serve? Or are all bounty hunters privy to some loot?
- What about if the corrupted player simply logs off? Can't really prevent that, of course. Will that player keep their corruption until they log back in and work it off? I assume so.
- What if my friends/guildies create level 1 alts for the sole purpose of flagging and killing each other so our bounty hunter friends can bring us to justice. If our alts have no gear and no gatherables, do bounty hunters have anything to gain? Like for example, quests to bring to justice a certain amount of corrupted players?
- What if I stay low level with the sole purpose of ganking other low level players. Will bounty hunters still find it worth their time to bring me to justice?
- Are there NPC bounty hunters? If players don't want to be bounty hunters (or if none are around), is there any recourse to simply griefing as much as I want? What if I'm level 3 and am just ganking level 1 characters in starter zones? I'm sure that eventually some higher level players may come and kill me simply to be the "hero". Maybe there should be a level restriction on open world PVP, like you have to be at least level 10 and can only flag/attack levels 10 or higher? Give new players a chance.
My thoughts: I like the idea of having bounty hunters. But if players don't go corrupted, there's no need for bounty hunters. And if players going corrupted is so rare, why would a bounty hunter go out of their way to bring them to justice? I think the reward and incentive really needs to be there in order for the bounty hunter system to succeed. And I think there should be a limit on what levels should be allowed to open world PVP. I don't want to see someone create a level 1 alt, level to 3 real quick, and then start ganking new players for giggles. Otherwise, imagine how insane this game might be at the very beginning when everyone is low level...
OK, I feel like I've typed enough. I think I've spit out most of my thoughts at the moment.
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Comments
2. From what we know currently corruption is given when a players strikes a killing blow on another player. Bringing a mob would depend on how PvE AI works, but i doubt that you will be able to transfer the aggro of a monster to another player nearby.
3. If you heal a combatant (someone who attacked another player) you should become combatant as well. This does not give you corruption if your friend kills the other player but flags you and other people can attack you freely without reprecussion.
4. Player 2 gets corruption. Logging out or DC-ing should make your character remain in the world for x amount of time. If you kill someone with dots it's your kill. Those dots carry your characters tags on them and shouldn't really depend on whether you kill someone while dc-ed or not.
5. There has been a lot of unofficial discussion going around the bounty hunter system and it will most probably get changed as it currently doesn't really work too well even on paper. I think it's best to wait for an official update on the topic.
1. that isn't 100% true.
You can not tell their exact HP or HP percentage but you will have a rough idea, similar to mob health in BDO before you have knowledge where the color changes as the mob gets weaker.
In the pax demo, when you looked at a player, they had what appeared to be a health bar but instead of it going down with percentages, it would break apart as they took damage. So the first time they take damage you would see some cracks. When they are half health, parts of the bar will start missing, and when they are close to death, almost the whole bar will be broken. If I remember correctly, there were only about 4-5 stages of this so you had some ideas of what their health was at but didn't have an exact read.
Not sure if that's exactly what it will be at launch but it sounds like they still want that kind of experience.
1. That's true that you're taking a risk if you attack them, but what if you just unequipped your weapon so you didn't hit them very hard, or just used a stun that did no damage? I'm trying to think of ways players could be griefed without actually being killed. And I admit that it's a very specific scenario and most likely going to be a very rare occurrence.
2. Transferring aggro would be hard without something like a hunter's misdirect in WoW. I was thinking of something along the lines of a mob that might have AoE or a frontal cone attack, and dragging the mob close to the other player so that it also hits that other player as well, and then hoping the mob delivers the killing blow. Or just dragging mobs on top of other players in general, just to mess with them (in which case they could just turn around and kill the mob). Or somehow getting mobs in on the action and then using a feign death, to drop aggro, and then let the mobs hit the other player that way. Just trying to throw out ideas
3. So healing a flagged player also flags you, but only killing blows award corruption. I wasn't aware of that, thanks!
4. Agreed!
Neat, pressing semicolon while typing brings up emojis, and then typing letters brings up emojis that start with those letters, or contain those letters. Fun! I'm trying to figure out why this reply looks like it's in a different font than other replies... maybe it won't be like that when I actually post.
What about a situation where two groups are in an open world dungeon.
1. Group 1 initiates an open dungeon boss.
2. Group 2 arrives, and is annoyed that Group 1 is there first.
3. Group 2 flags PVP and does DPS to the tank in Group 1, but doesn't kill him. Just takes him low.
4. Boss kills Group 1 tank.
5. Group 2 tags the boss so he doesn't reset (if that's a thing).
6. Group 1 gets killed off by boss because of aggro and no tank.
7. Group 2 tank picks up boss and essentially steals the kill, and the loot.
8. No corruption for Group 2, only flagged for PVP.
Should there be a penalty? I'm kind of torn on this. For Group 1, that's certainly a very ****** situation, and would completely ruin their day. In the 4K gameplay video, although everyone was working together, there were players who were still flagged for PVP and were taking damage from other players. I certainly see how this scenario could happen. I don't see this as something that can be completely avoided. However, Group 2 could just as easily join in on the fun and help Group 1 instead of killing them. But then, they'd share the loot!
Or this:
1. Group 1 initiates boss fight, does all the work, gets boss to 5%
2. Group 2 comes in, tags boss, stands around right on top of boss.
3. Boss dies.
4. Group 2 loots and runs.
I believe it was the 4k gameplay video that showed a situation like this, where the loot from the dragon was first come first loot. Will that kind of loot system still be in place, anyone know? I realize this is off topic from PVP, unless you consider it PVP to actively try to fight players in a race to loot the boss first!
As for giving more advantages to Bounty Hunters and more penalties to the corrupt player, imo does not make sense.
Here is why:
1. The corrupted player already risks much more than a bounty hunter due to having the chance of losing EQUIPPED gear on death.
2. The Corrupt player does not know where or when bounty hunters may show up, he only knows that they know exactly where he is at all times.
3. Bounty Hunters risk nothing but the normal penalties for hunting corrupt players, if you contrast that with the potential rewards, it's completely fair, I'd almost say it's even unfair for the corrupt player as the bounty hunters have more information than the corrupt player does.
4. Bounty Hunters can team up while corrupt players would have a harder time doing so.
I'm sure I could come up with more reasons to why the bounty hunter system is already fair, but there you have my take on it.
I play High-Risk PvP games btw, where you can potentially lose ALL your items on you so I have some experience in this area.
I don't have any experience in High-Risk PVP games, so I really appreciate your input!
What about a scenario where a single person (or group of guildies/friends) got together and spent just a little time leveling alts. Let's say they only go up to level 10. In a worst case scenario, they send their alts better than average gear for a level 10 player.
Then, as a band, they roam around and just PK lower level people, let's say anywhere from levels 1-10. They don't care about corruption, they don't care about losing their level 10 gear. They're not really risking anything on their alts and are intentionally griefing. Sure, it will take a few days to level an alt to level 10, but that's a relatively small time sink, imo, to have a toon ready to go gank lowbies anytime they feel the itch.
I know the bounty hunter system isn't going to fix all problems, even a perfectly executed one. And in this scenario, I'm sure that higher level players will come to the rescue eventually and quell the unrest. The corruption system will deter higher level players with fears of losing their equipped gear. But will the corruption system be enough to deter lower level players?
I have to admit, I will probably experiment with the corruption system in the very beginning, just to see it in action. On a max toon though, I'll be playing it safe.
Maybe
Less people will be Bounty Hunters due to the current dynamics. You forget that there are Hard Counters in Ashes. A Solo Bounty Hunter would have issues against a Hard Counter when the Hard Counter has no relevant debuff.
If you want to kill Corrupted Players, you don't have to be a Bounty Hunter, you can be a normal player and fight at a huge advantage. Corrupted Players have the same advantage when someone doesn't fight back and becomes corrupted.
Corrupted People have advantages given from a Military Node, Bounty Hunters are from a Military Node. It is highly conceivable therefore that both Corrupted Players and Bounty Hunters will come from the same Node. Not really conducive to protect the Bounty Hunters. A Corrupted Player won't be Corrupted forever but a Bounty Hunter will still be a Bounty Hunter after a Corrupted is de-corrupted.
If there are no corrupted players, Bounty Hunters will look for other Nodes to frequent. Military Node offers nothing worthwhile except Bounty Hunter Perks and Bounty Hunters. If Bounty Hunters aren't required except infrequently, Bounty Hunter Perks will take forever to unlock and you have nothing to gain beyond killing Corrupted Players.
It is not clear how much information a Bounty Hunter will receive from a Bounty Hunter Quest. While some Bounty Hunters want a difficult task to locate Corrupted Players, some Bounty Hunters understand the Hard Counter Dynamics and don't want to go in blind.
It is true Bounty Hunters can group together, but, we don't know how rewards will be distributed in such circumstances. If all Bounty Hunters are recompensed that would be good, if the killing blow is recompensed that would be bad. Bounty Hunters would fall out over loot and Bounty Hunters would fragment. This is not the end of the world but it does mean Corrupted could flourish despite Bounty Hunters.
This is all an assessment from paper by a Bounty Hunter. It is not set in stone. I would love for no-one to go corrupted so I can retire to a Divine Node. We don't always get our wishes however.
Edit: Something else came to mind, will more than 1 Bounty Hunter have access to the same quest? If more than one Bounty Hunter has access to a specific quest will it highlight other Bounty Hunters on the same quest so we can group, or will it be competitive to see who gets there first? If the Bounty Hunters can group and all succeed in a Bounty Hunter Quest together, then there are no problems. Bounty Hunters however will compete for Head Bounty Hunter, so there are issues with Bounty Hunters groupings.